Church and State

[SeventhValley]

How do you separate church actions from State actions in places where Orthodoxy is part of the State?

 

[dzheremi]

What do you mean "where Orthodoxy is part of the state"? Do you have specific examples in mind?

It is helpful to remember that there is a difference between having a national church and having a state church. The Anglican church can be called a state church, for instance, since its supreme governor is Queen Elizabeth II. The same can not be said of the ROC and Putin, or the GOC and Margvelashvili, or certainly the AOC and Erdogan (thank God), etc.

 

[SeventhValley]

Where the church is funded by the State directly and could be considered a arm of the State.

 

[Lukaris]

It is up to the society of a particular nation to sort out its own affairs. America has no (or no longer) has any unifying religion in its cultural identity. Nations like Armenia & Georgia are defined by their respective Oriental & Eastern Orthodox identities. Saudi Arabia is defined by Islamic identity. Burma is identified by Buddhism. Israel is defined by Judaism. etc. etc.

Meddling in the affairs of other nations produces nothing but humanitarian disasters like the "Arab spring". Policies like induced mass immigrations, multiculturalism, etc. are delusions trying to build a fools paradise and only perpetuate human misery.

 

[SeventhValley]

It is up to the society of a particular nation to sort out its own affairs. America has no (or no longer) has any unifying religion in its cultural identity. Nations like Armenia & Georgia are defined by their respective Oriental & Eastern Orthodox identities. Saudi Arabia is defined by Islamic identity. Burma is identified by Buddhism. Israel is defined by Judaism. etc. etc.

Meddling in the affairs of other nations produces nothing but humanitarian disasters like the "Arab spring". Policies like induced mass immigrations, multiculturalism, etc. are delusions trying to build a fools paradise and only perpetuate human misery.

Ummm not what I was wondering about.

I could care less what other states do religion wise. But what Christian churches do affect all other Christians even non Orthodox ones. A State may force a national church to do it's bidding so at what point do we give the church a break for doing what it needs to do to survive vs becoming a non-Christian shell of a church?

 

[jckstraw72]

Ummm not what I was wondering about.

I could care less what other states do religion wise. But what Christian churches do affect all other Christians even non Orthodox ones. A State may force a national church to do it's bidding so at what point do we give the church a break for doing what it needs to do to survive vs becoming a non-Christian shell of a church?

good question - some people think Patriarch Sergius in Russian during Commie times was a God-awful betrayer of the faith, and others think he shrewdly did what he had to do to keep the Church alive.

 

[SeventhValley]

On a side note multiculturalism can work. The military and sport teams can do it. The problem is you need a strong overarching culture to connect the non-connected cultures. Examples are various Constitutions such as the Constitution of the Untied States of America or the Constitution of the Russian Federation. Or core values Core values - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[SeventhValley]

good question - some people think Patriarch Sergius in Russian during Commie times was a God-awful betrayer of the faith, and others think he shrewdly did what he had to do to keep the Church alive.

Exactly. On one hand you do what you need to too survive. On the other hand Jesus and the early church was all about pacifistic death before compromise. So at what point do we say yea they should not have compromised?

 

[jckstraw72]

really dunno, i can see it both ways (referring to Russia and the Commies). in the moment we just have try our best to discern the will of God (certainly helps to have a close relationship with a spiritual father), and i think such things become clear in hindsight.

 

[Shieldmaiden4Christ]

Interesting question! (And, I have no quick-and-ready answer)

 

[dzheremi]

It seems like the question of the OP has changed slightly. "How do you separate the actions" is different than "how can you judge if an action is in keeping with the examples of Christ and the apostles". I would think that the question as first asked is easy enough to answer -- unless the Church is actively raising an army to fight on behalf of the state or whatever, it can always be distinguished, even if the relationship between the Church and the State is quite close. This new question is more difficult, however. The invocation of Christ and/or the apostles or the norms that either set down can and does result in very different responses and actions in differing circumstances. "Pacifistic death" was certainly not on the agenda for the Armenians during the Nagarno-Karabakh War, for instance, but how much of this can be pinned on the Armenian Orthodox Church because of Armenia's support of its own in the conflict is a matter of some debate, to put it mildly.

It should be said that in such conflicts, sometimes the best examples of Orthodox morality are manifested (yes, along with bad things too; these are conflict zones, after all). I remember reading a long time ago from an EO acquaintance of mine about how during the Balkan conflicts of the early 1990s, a Serbian Orthodox bishop whose territory was embroiled in conflict and murder sent out a directive forbidding anyone to be baptized in the field, for fear that forced conversions may occur without a strong restriction in place to prevent them (as was known to happen with other factions involved in the fighting). There you could say that while the fighting itself may not have been in keeping with this or that understanding of how Orthodox are to conduct themselves, certainly that decision was. I'm sure there are many more examples that could be brought in support of this point by EO who know the recent history of their churches in those lands affected by conflict.

So I don't think it's as simple as being able to make blanket judgments. It's probably better and more realistic to consider things on a case-by-case basis.

 

[ArmyMatt]

As an American, I dunno