christians who believe in evolution

[JayCdn]

Okay, so if I'm understanding correctly, Jay, you rectify the two by not caring about what actually happened in terms of the details - which sounds like a good way of avoiding the whole debate in terms of the actual mechanisms involved (not necessarily a bad thing). Question: When you say there was a large emphasis on evolution, and that you believe it, do you mean you actually believe that we came about as the result of a random process whereby changes in allele frequency due to chance and natural selection resulted in the emergence of our species? Or do you mean rather that you believe that God is directing the whole process (in which case we're no longer talking about the process of macroevolution that most biologists etc. subscribe to)?

Do I beleive that human beings, and all life on earth came from one single celled organism millions and millions of years ago? I grant that this is hard for me to admit, but if it is so, I really don't care. I guess by the principle of I-forget-what-its-called (anything happening today was happening yesterday and so on) I do as that is the most convincing evidence that has been presented to me. This really isn't something I spend a great deal of time thinking about. I prefer to think about people alive today, how I might be able to help them and show them love.

Is God directing the process or is it random? I couldn't say, nor do I care terribly, I guess I'll just have to ask God someday. In the end I don't feel that this has anything to do with the core of my faith.

 

[Stan the Man]

Adam and Eve did exist God made them in his image and the scriptures talk about them, and if Adam and Eve never existed, sin would never exist either...

To say that one "believes" in evolution is a misunderstanding of the fundamentals of science.

quite.

Jay, I think the issue, based on the OP is more concerned with can one square the existence of a sovereign creator God with the working of a random process, and I would reasonably suggest one can't - but one might suggest that God is in control of a process which is similar in some ways to the Theory of Evolution.

I wasn't suggesting that the topic is central to one's faith (though in Hebrews 11:3 creation is mentioned - "By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible."), but that the notion of a random, non-directed process is at odds with the existence of a sovereign creator God.

I prefer to think about people alive today, how I might be able to help them and show them love.

I wasn't aware that the two (discussing evolution and loving my neighbour) were mutually exclusive; I hope they're not, otherwise I'll never be able to love the people on my course, given that so much of it involves discussing evolution.

 

[JayCdn]

I wasn't aware that the two (discussing evolution and loving my neighbour) were mutually exclusive; I hope they're not, otherwise I'll never be able to love the people on my course, given that so much of it involves discussing evolution.

Do you actually think this is what I was saying or are you trying to make me look silly? Yes, obviously I believe that you can show you love your neighbour in many ways, including talking to him about evolution. For the sake of completeness, I also believe you can show you love people without mentinoing evolution, that you can talk about evolution without showing that you love someone, that you can show someone you love them without talking, and that you can show an absence of love without speaking, in case you were wondering.

Most of my neighbours, however, couldn't care a whole lot less about evolution, even the ones I met in my evolutionary biology class. They care more about their own lives, the lives of their loved ones, what they are going through, their hurts, joys, etc. If I thought that talking with a person about evolution would help them come to know Christ, or show that I love them, then I would do so, but in my experience this has not happened. Saying in biology classes that I am a Christian and voicing some concerns has brought some people closer to me, and later allowed me to show them love, however.

As far as God and random processes being at odds with one another, though I may not agree entirely I can appreciate where you are coming from. I maintain, in spite of this, that I am a Christian and I 'believe in' evolution.

 

[Stan the Man]

No, my intention isn't to make you look silly, just to clarify what was being said

Although outside of the lecture hall people don't tend to talk about evolution much, I've found that talking about evolution in seminars and lectures tended to then lead to being able to talk to people after lectures about other things - not that this is the only way of starting conversations with my non-Christian friends of course - just that I've found for mysef that the concept of evolution is something a lot of people on my course kinda take for granted, and that challenging the idea of just accepting that it must be right (not that this is what everyone who considers evolution to be a valid scientific explanation does, but what a number of people seem to do) then leads to conversations about other things that we maybe take for granted.

In your case, you say that it's not really a topic that others on your course are interested in, and so of course it would be silly to get bogged down in such a discussion; I'm just saying that with the people on my course, my simply saying that I didn't agree that we're the result of a random process, but that God is in control of every aspect of who we are - that we are fearfully and wonderfully made - leads to opportunities to talk about my faith generally... although I would add that this probably wouldn't work if I simply said "I don't agree with it" for the sake of not agreeing with it; actually understanding the parameters and mechanisms involved means that I'm not simply dismissed as a religious nut.

Hope that clarifies any issues

 

[fragglerocker]

I'm not going to take the time to read this entire thread 'cuz it's really long and I am tired, but I wanted to explain why I believe that belief in God and evolution don't have to go against each other.

First, the Bible says [paraphrasing] that the earth was created in six days, and the actual text reads "and on the first day" such-and-such happened, and then there was night and the day ended. Well I've read somewhere (forgive me for forgetting where, no time to look it up here) that the word we translated into English for "day" actually in the old Hebrew can mean many things (that's very common, the English language has a ton of words that all mean the same thing...many other languages have one word that can have several meanings), but one of those things is "from chaos to order." Taking the word we translated as "day" and substituting a possible Hebrew meaning of "from chaos to order," one can see how perhaps the whole 6-day thing isn't necessarily exact. I don't mean to be stepping on toes here, or insinuating that the Bible is flawed, because I don't believe it is. I believe that the majority of us can't read the Old Testament in its original Hebrew, and because of that we may be missing a LOT.

Also, on a more personal note, I think that the idea that God used the processes of evolution to shape the world into what it is today fits right in with the nature of God. I believe God is a "personal" God, meaning He is involved and cares about every aspect of our own personal lives. To me, evolution is further proof of God's dedication to our every detail. He isn't a far-removed creator who made the world in a week and then decided to leave us alone to fend for ourselves. He's a loving, personal, INVOLVED creator who has been molding and shaping us continually from the very start of humanity. To me, the theory of evolution means that God is beautifully and masterfully shaping us and His universe even now, and has been since the beginning of time. We already believe that He is continually working and re-working our own hearts and spirits, right? We are continually being made new. What is so threatening to believe that perhaps this is also true of our fleshly bodies?

It was hard for me to take biology an anthropology courses at first (especially as an anthro major--lots of time studying the pre-Homo sapiens people), but now the more I learn about the theories of what might have been, and the findings in archeology and anthropology, I marvel even more at the work the Lord is doing, and has been doing since the very beginning (even if I will never know exactly WHEN time began).

 

[JayCdn]

First, the Bible says [paraphrasing] that the earth was created in six days, and the actual text reads "and on the first day" such-and-such happened, and then there was night and the day ended. Well I've read somewhere (forgive me for forgetting where, no time to look it up here) that the word we translated into English for "day" actually in the old Hebrew can mean many things (that's very common, the English language has a ton of words that all mean the same thing...many other languages have one word that can have several meanings), but one of those things is "from chaos to order." Taking the word we translated as "day" and substituting a possible Hebrew meaning of "from chaos to order," one can see how perhaps the whole 6-day thing isn't necessarily exact. I

Yeah, the word that we translate as day is "yom" I believe, which can also mean "a period of time". Pretty vague eh?

And to Stan, I can appreciate talking about anything to get someking of a relationship or just a conversation started with people. Most 20-somethings around me respond more strongly to music or sports or whatever they did over the weekend than evolution. We are on the same team man, just playing for different audiences.

 

[Stan the Man]

 

[jgarden]

So I've seen a few people on here who are christians but believe in evolution. And I'm wondering, how can you do both? I'm not trying to start a debate or anything about evolution. I just want to know how someone justifies evolution if they believe in God's word.

Evolution focuses on the mechanics and timeline of God's creation. It doesn't refute the existance of God at work in the Universe. Whether God's creation took 6 days or 4 billion years - who cares?

 

[Stan the Man]

Well, evolutionists do - many use the notion that "evidence" shows that the earth can't possibly have been created in 6 days as an argument against the account in Genesis... it may not be a problem for people who are already Christians, but it does present an obstacle for non-Christians.

Many (aetheistic) evolutionists view evolution as a random process, which negates the existence of a sovereign creator... again, quite a barrier to them coming to believe that there really is a God.

 

[Anne86]

So I've seen a few people on here who are christians but believe in evolution. And I'm wondering, how can you do both? I'm not trying to start a debate or anything about evolution. I just want to know how someone justifies evolution if they believe in God's word.

I'm not a creationist meaning I don't support creationist theories. I tried to read the entire tread but gave it up, so if I post anything that has already been said, just skip it. (And English isn't my native language so please cover any grammar errors with the mantle of love.)

When I look around, I can only see creationism as a bad thing. I don't mean that it makes one a lesser Christian because creationists and theistic evolutionists both can understand the deeper meaning of Genesis. But it often gets in the way of evangelization. I mean, isn't it just sad how many religious conversations turn into debates about alleles and earth layers? Did anyone ever convert to christianity because of this? I'm also afraid that some people cling onto these creationist theories so tightly that when they start to doubt it, they start to doubt God. I had that too, it was a real struggle. I now believe I was tested to show that I could let beliefs go I was raised with without losing my faith in God. But what do creationists think about these things?

Ok so here's my justification against some objections.

I don't take all of Genesis 1-3 literally but I don't see a problem with that. There are many verses that are not meant to be taken literally. And it's not like a different interpretation of these verses changes a Christian's lifestyle (like verses with commands in it can do).

Some people 'expect' God to create things instantly, but why? Does God get bored or tired when it takes a while? I don't think so.

A bigger problem is the existence of disease and death before the Fall. How can that be "good"? Well... is it really a bad thing when a predator kills a prey? Isn't a lion or a crocodile beautiful and good even while it's been designed to kill? If that is so, then "good" couldn't have meant pleasant and pain-free. I believe it doesn't. Genesis speaks about the garden in which men was placed. Why didn't He just let them live on earth if it was a safe place to be, and why did he have a tree of life in the garden if life was natural? Maybe it's impossible to create an environment without the possibility of suffering and God put them in the garden to protect them.

Another problem is that evolution says we came to be trough coincidence. Well, I see it like this: Say God creates a baby, and it grows into an adult who can know God and praise Him. We can then say that the adult was created, but he also grew up in a natural way. God didn't have to make his cells split and grow. That information was already in there. We can also call ourselves created while we know we were born in a natural way. God just set the conditions. That's about how I see evolution. Maybe God also interfered but He didn't do it in a way so that everybody could see it and had to accept it.

Many think the idea of us descending from apes (or whatever you call our common ancestors) is repulsive. Why is that? Because it makes us the same as apes? The Bible says that God created men and the animals on the same day. Does that make us the same as all the animals? It doesn't. Even though our appearance may be somewhat alike, we are still very different from apes. What we can do makes us different. We can know and love God, repent and take responsibility for our actions which apes can't. Maybe at some point the body of the first people were ready and God 'breathed life into the man'. I don't what exactly happened, but at one point Adam was human and not ape.

Greetings

 

[Anne86]

Well, evolutionists do - many use the notion that "evidence" shows that the earth can't possibly have been created in 6 days as an argument against the account in Genesis... it may not be a problem for people who are already Christians, but it does present an obstacle for non-Christians.

Only if they think one can't be a Christian if one doesn't accept a literal explanation of Genesis.

Many (aetheistic) evolutionists view evolution as a random process, which negates the existence of a sovereign creator... again, quite a barrier to them coming to believe that there really is a God.

That would be a barrier, yes. But why try to prove the evolution theory incorrect if all it takes is believing it was Gods work?

 

[Stan the Man]

A bigger problem is the existence of disease and death before the Fall. How can that be "good"? Well... is it really a bad thing when a predator kills a prey? Isn't a lion or a crocodile beautiful and good even while it's been designed to kill? If that is so, then "good" couldn't have meant pleasant and pain-free. I believe it doesn't.

The bible doesn't say anything about there being death or disease before the fall. But it does say that:

"The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. (Romans 8:18-21)

So, creation (as in the whole of it) has been subject to frustration, and this passage points forward to the new creation - and the language used to talk about the new creation elsewhere in the bible, seems to talk pretty clearly about predation (to use the example you gave)...

Isaiah 11:6-9

6 The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling together;
and a little child will lead them.

7 The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.

8 The infant will play near the hole of the cobra,
and the young child put his hand into the viper's nest.

9 They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD
as the waters cover the sea.

Isaiah 65:25

The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, but dust will be the serpent's food. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain," says the LORD.

But why try to prove the evolution theory incorrect if all it takes is believing it was God's work?

Because (1) in the context of discussing evolution with evolutionists, it is helpful to tackle the issue on their level (ie. the level of the parameters of macroevolution), and (2) I did say aetheistic evolutionists, so "if all it takes is believing it was God's work" is quite a big jump for them isn't it?

But I'm certainly not trying to say that a well-reasoned argument for or against macroevolution is going to convert people