Christianity's 'hidden' language.

ronmathison · Sep 18, 2006

I'm sick of Christianity's 'hidden' language.

What I mean:

People say we're 'saved by grace' ...

What is 'saved by grace' , supposed to mean

to a NON-CHRISTIAN?

That we're saved by praying at supper?

Scripture would be BETTER translated

'saved by GRACIOUSNESS' , which is more accurate

to the original language, then to English.

(one example)

JoelParks · Sep 18, 2006

DedicatedLittleFaith · Sep 18, 2006

I must admit you make a very good point.

BigNorsk · Sep 18, 2006

Can you imagine the uproar if a translation came out with the change you suggest? I'm thinking we would see copies burned in front of congregations, the translators would certainly receive envelopes of burned bibles (just about all of them currently already receive some of those) and so on.

People are often not too concerned with whether the translation is really correct, they are concerned that the translation is exactly as they know it. Take the King James, there are lots of people that read it and impose modern meanings on the old words, meanings that have changed over time. And then when they run into a more modern translation they react negatively because it doesn't agree with their mistaken understanding.

Take for instance the ISV's rendering of monogenes, the most famous use of which occurs in
John 3:16 ISV "For this is how God loved the world: He gave his unique Son so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but have eternal life.

As compared to the KJV's famous:
John 3:16 KJV For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Now the linguistic studies would say that the ISV is clearly much much closer to the meaning in the original language by using the word unique, that mongenes is really referring to a one-of-a-kind, and is not just a slightly different form of gennaō which we see in Matthew 1 as the word "begat".

The superiority of the use of unique is clear, yet they have been besieged with hate mail for changing the word of God and the nature of Christ. I think they have seriously thought about changing it back.

So good luck when you come out with your translation which changes grace to graciousness, and I think that I actually kind of agree with you that grace has become church speak and people don't naturally understand what you are talking about.

But I think when your translation hits the book reviews, I will be safely far over the hill. Christians are just not so Christ-like sometimes.

Marv

ArnautDaniel · Sep 18, 2006

Hmmm, "hidden language"...

In most other contexts this is known as "jargon".

Unfortunately, too often jargon exists to hide the fact that the speaker has no idea what they are saying, but wants to sound important.

kenrapoza · Sep 18, 2006

That's true. But while we should communicate a message to the world that is clear and relevant to them in the sense that it is not cloaked in "christianese", I've seen people go too far in the other direction.

You're point reminds me of another example. It's not a case of a "secret language" per se, but more a case of the church not understanding that they are trying to communicate a message to an unbeliever that has no meaning to them. Sometimes we lose sight of the fact that many unbelievers don't understand (or accept) the basic problem of fallen humanity that we Christians take for granted. Oftentimes Christians assume that everyone else not only sees it, but also sees it the same way we do.

This is what I mean. The mantra of the modern church is "Jesus is the answer." We shout it from the rooftops and then wonder why people don't take notice. It's not so much that the unbeliever is rejecting the message, what they're thinking is "Okay, great. Jesus may be the answer...but what's the QUESTION?" Sometimes we just can't see the forest for the trees.

TrustingmyLord · Sep 19, 2006

I think after a while, many of us Christians take all this kowledge for granted and we tend to talk to non Christians and assume they know what we know. They dont.

I dont think we need a new translation, but I think that we can simply translate things to laymans terms when we are talking to nonbelievers to help them better understand.

Saved by grace, we say that and expect them to know. The thing is, this is something people desperately need to know! Many, many of them really think that they can get to Heaven by being good.

There are many other terms as well... where the full meaning might not be obvious to nonbelievers.

"Crucified with Christ"
"Walking with God"
"depending on God."
"Jesus as our personal Saviour."
"spiritually alive"
"the lost"
"redeemer, messiah, sanctified"
"washed in the blood"
"living sacrifice"

Alot of nonbelievers might feel silly for not knowing and wont ask about these things.I think we should be attentive when we speak, as not to make it sounds so foreign and strange to them, but explain things in a way they can understand better.

baddhabbitt · Sep 19, 2006

A good dictionary is an important tool to understand words. Such as grace:

Main Entry: 1grace
Pronunciation: 'grAs
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin gratia favor, charm, thanks, from gratus pleasing, grateful; akin to Sanskrit grnAti he praises
1 a : unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification b : a virtue coming from God c : a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine grace
2 a : approval, favor <stayed in his good graces> b archaic : mercy, pardon c : a special favor : privilege<each in his place, by right, not grace, shall rule his heritage -- Rudyard Kipling> d : disposition to or an act or instance of kindness, courtesy, or clemency e : a temporary exemption :REPRIEVE 3 a : a charming or attractive trait or characteristic b : a pleasing appearance or effect : CHARM <all the grace of youth -- John Buchan> c : ease and suppleness of movement or bearing
4 -- used as a title of address or reference for a duke, a duchess, or an archbishop
5 : a short prayer at a meal asking a blessing or giving thanks
6 plural, capitalized : three sister goddesses in Greek mythology who are the givers of charm and beauty
7 : a musical trill, turn, or appoggiatura
8 a : sense of propriety or right <had the grace not to run for elective office -- Calvin Trillin> b : the quality or state of being considerate or thoughtful
synonym see MERCY

baddhabbitt · Sep 19, 2006

1 Corinthians 2:7

JVarner83 · Sep 19, 2006

It takes the spirit of God to decern the bible.

It takes you (as a christian) to interput the bible so they may believe.

we are the light of the world...

Calebofthepromisedland · Sep 19, 2006

Well, Ron. Tell me, are you explaining it to non-christians? The Bible is the word of God and is therefore infallible. This is my belief. I just can't see God allowing His word to be corrupted by us. I can, however, see us misunderstanding His word. As believers in Christ and God it is our responsibilty as fishers of men to teach others the word and what grace is. To quibble over details in wording is to miss a bigger picture, I think. The meaning of the text has not changed in all of these centuries. Conotation, perhaps, accessibility to non-christians so that they may understand, definitely, but not the meaning. And, please, be careful Ron. God does not look kindly on His word being changed. It's sorta blasphemy from my understanding. If you are adament about this, you had better lay it before God. DO NOT DARE TO CHANGE HIS WORD WITHOUT SPEAKING TO HIM!!!! That would be a fool's errand and will not end well.

Preying God guides you
-Caleb

baddhabbitt · Sep 20, 2006

A good dictionary is a must when studying the word. If you got a good one it will tell you what language it came from and its meaning at that point and so on.

ronmathison · Sep 20, 2006

The English N.T. comes from The GREEK

(get the Greek biblical dictionary by Strong, look up the Greek word, and you'll see the word: GRASCIOUSNESS) .

Hello?

ROGER459 · Sep 20, 2006

WHAT CAN WE DO "TO EARN" OUR SALVATION IN CHRIST?

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

While in London England in January 2006, I stayed at a breakfast & bed near Victoria Station. The hotel was run by those of the Islamic Faith! I had a good conversation with a very knowledgeable about Christianity. He claimed that Islam and Christianity were Almost Brothers sharing the Faith of Abraham!

After listening to his "Explanation of the Islamic Faith by Works" I them told him of the Christian Gospel. The "The ONE TIME PAYMENT FOR ALL SIN" by Christ Jesus on the Cross, in His statement on the Cross. YES, "The FINISHED WORK" of Christ, could not be added Upon! by "Any Works" and that Salvation was "By GRACE THROUGH FAITH" in that Finished Work!

I explained Ephesians 2:8-to-10. That FAITH in Christs Finished Work: Brings Salvation, and "Then - COME THE WORKS DONE IN FAITH!" As verse 10 states, the Works FOLLOW the Real Biblical Faith!

Belief - in Jesus: Must be done According to John 7:38 - for as Christ said there is another way in John 10:1-to-18 that was the Wrong Way! The WORD speaks to the same in Proverbs 14:12 & 16:25.

Then I explained GRACE! This Biblical Concept "Is FOREIGN" to the Islamic Mind!

The example I used went like this. In London England, the cost of living is as Expensive as New York City!

You own a car, and have it parked on the street. You use it to get to Work and in Business "Each and Every DAY!

Someone, Crashed into Your CAR And you go outside And TELL HIM "YOU ARE FORGIVEN!" You may leave, and go about your business, I will not call the Police, and "I WILL ABSORB THE LOSS AND THE COST OF MY CAR!"

That is a Word Picture of the Grace of God! JESUS TOOK OUR SIN, on the Cross-, and THAT WAS THE FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST IN TOTAL PAYMENT FOR US! We can do Nothing MORE! He Adsorbed the LOSS, THAT WE MAY BE SET FREE FROM THE PENALTY AND THE DEATH OF SIN!

(Ephesians 2:8-9-10) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(Eph 2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
(Eph 2:10) For we are His Workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

(2Corinthians 5:17-to-21) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
(2Co 5:18) And all things are of God, Who hath reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
(2Co 5:19) To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us The Word of reconciliation.
(2Co 5:20) Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, Be You Reconciled to God.
(2Co 5:21) For HE [GOD] hath made Him [JESUS] to be sin for us, Who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him [JESUS].

(Titus 3:3-to-8) For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
(*** 3:4) But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
(*** 3:5) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His Mercy - He saved us, - By the Washing of Regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
(*** 3:6) Which He [GOD] shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
(*** 3:7) That being justified by His Grace, we should be made Heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
(*** 3:8) This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

(2Corinthians 3:5) Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; - But our sufficiency - Is Of GOD;

(Galatians 3:2-3) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
(Gal 3:3) Are ye so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Thanks, Roger459

baddhabbitt · Sep 23, 2006

This is saying that we can't plea ignorance to God's word, that it is within us, If you will ask, the Spirit will give clarity to what you have need of.

John

ROGER459 · Sep 23, 2006

(Psalms 98:2) The LORD hath made known his salvation: his righteousness hath he openly shewed in the sight of the heathen.

(2Peter 3:9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

(Acts 17:30-31) And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
(Act 17:31) Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Thanks, Roger459

(Psalms 14:1) The Fool has said in his heart, NO GOD!

threeinone · Sep 23, 2006

I thought people said "We are saved by God's grace". At least that is what they are supposed to say. That cannot be translated as grace at supper and why even would a non Christian know about grace at supper..... they might say "Grace who".

The bible is written for Christians and Christians have to be careful speaking bible terms(making them easier to understand) to non Christians or risk being misunderstood.

Even within different churches, people usually try to be careful when speaking about particular customs, beliefs so as to not be misunderstood.

SteelDisciple · Sep 27, 2006

You speak from true wisdom.

Some of the ways SOME people here talk would confound and confuse a non-Christian...
That's not how you reach a soul. Speak english. Let the spirit guide your words and don't let your ego speak it for you.

linssue55 · Sep 27, 2006

The word "Grace" IS the original word. We don't go around changing the word for any believer or un-believer. Give the Correct word to the un-believer, THEN leave it to God the Holy Spirit to motivate that person. We are never to reduce God's word to what WE think it should say, so go with the truth from yourself to others, at least this way "You" will remain faithful to the word, and allow God to do the rest.

SteelDisciple · Sep 28, 2006

Going around spouting off various christian terms like "spirit-filled" means nothing to a non-Christian. There are many terms we use that would just confuse them.
It would be like taking a 4 year old and putting him in an advanced math class like geometry. and hoping he learns something.

Christianity's 'hidden' language.

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