Christianity Isn’t Dying, But Protestantism Is

[chevyontheriver]

I think this depends on where you are located in the US. There is no doubt that in the Northeast region of our country that Catholicism is in deep doo doo. But in the South though Catholicism is growing and fairly healthy, albeit not as heathy as it was pre-Covid. I think you really need to look at the USA regionally. U.S. Catholic population shows growth, trends southward

Good point. This varies with the region.

I must say I completely disagree with this assessment. The growth of the Church prior to Vatican II was the result of two factors: larger families and immigration. It had nothing to do with converts coming into the Church. That event was so rare, the Church really didn't have a thing like RCIA prior to Vatican II. Converts came primarily through marriage.

No, it wasn't that rare. We got people joining the Catholic Church in numbers even before RCIA got invented.

But there is another thing I forgot to mention, which is the almost total Catholic acceptance of birth control and thus the drop in family size.

The New Liturgy actually helps with converts coming into the Church IMO. In my example as a convert, I really don't know how I would have been able to do it, if I walked into a service using a language I knew nothing about. I believe I probably would have walked right back out, and never thought of Catholicism again. Latin service is fine and dandy if you were born into it, and grew up in it; but outsider coming in? Completely different story, IMO. That is definitely one of the advantages of the Novus Ordo over the Pius X Mass. The first will allow conversion the later will not.

I'm not saying changing to English was a bad thing. Actually that in itself would have been a good thing. But much more than a mere language change happened to the liturgy.

Were children catechized better prior to Vatican II? Probably since the norm was for Catholics to send their children to Catholic schools. But after the price of private schools went up, because of the loss of Religious to run and work the schools, that all changed. Of course the Church responded with various programs at the local parish; but the attendance normally has been fairly poor. And as one of my gripes that I have, adult continuing education isn't a prevalent as it should be; and I don't think it was back then either.

The drop off of the nuns raised prices and priced many families out of the market for Catholic schools. But the drop off of the nuns chronologically correlates to the implementation of Vatican II. I am not blaming Vatican II. Just that the implementation of it was a disaster for religious communities for the most part. That wasn't the intention.

And I agree with you about inadequate adult education. It's always been an afterthought.

I agree on this somewhat? I do think it has impacted the Church greater in the Northeast than in the South. Even though there has been some clergy abuse in the South, IMO it has been handled better, so I really don't think it has affected the Southern dioceses as much as it has in the Northern and Western ones.

I have no evidence about the regionality of sex abuse. BUT it does seem to cluster a bit, probably as one priest debauches others, maybe gets promoted to seminary rector or bishop, debauches seminarians, maybe gets promoted to cardinal, and as a kingmaker nominates like minded snakes to be bishops. Maybe the South has missed some of that clustering. I've seen too much abuse too close to home. I had thought of becoming a deacon but I put that on hold when my archbishop was investigated and later removed. The final report on that never happened. I've aged out of eligibility to become a deacon. Oh well.

This I agree completely. In LA our state shut down all the churches, with very little pushback from religious leadership. There is no doubt that this has affected church attendance across the board no matter what denomination. I know our parish was averaging 250 in mass attendance pre-covid; but not we are at 170'ish; where not too long ago we were in the 150's.

I don't see those people ever coming back. But maybe new people can fill their places.

 

[Erose]

No, it wasn't that rare. We got people joining the Catholic Church in numbers even before RCIA got invented.

I would like to see numbers if they even exist of how many converts entered the CC prior to Vatican II and afterwards. Me I'm just going off of what a few old priests, who experienced life on both sides, have told me over the years, that stuck with me. I may or may not be right. I'll do some more research on this matter to clarify one way or another.

I have to say that I was a pre-RCIA covert as I never went through that program; but that was after the liturgy changes.

But there is another thing I forgot to mention, which is the almost total Catholic acceptance of birth control and thus the drop in family size.

I would assume that this was the number one factor in Church growth, and a close second the immigration of a lot of Irish and Italians at that time.

I'm not saying changing to English was a bad thing. Actually that in itself would have been a good thing. But much more than a mere language change happened to the liturgy.

One thing I always wondered is that no one has never thought of praying the Pius X Mass in the vernacular. IMO this would make it grow even more. I must say personally, I prefer the new Liturgy over the old, (to use my words carefully). I do prefer to whole Church praying in unison, over just the priest and his servers doing the brunt of the work, while the rest pretty much watch, try their best to follow along (which it easy if the priest is praying softly), or using the time to perform their daily devotions. But that is me. I have nothing against that liturgy, nor against those who prefer it over the new one. As long as they don't fall into the traps of heterodoxy by the VatII deniers.

The drop off of the nuns raised prices and priced many families out of the market for Catholic schools. But the drop off of the nuns chronologically correlates to the implementation of Vatican II. I am not blaming Vatican II. Just that the implementation of it was a disaster for religious communities for the most part. That wasn't the intention.

I don't blame this on Vatican II, I blame this on the timeframe of Vatican II. The whole reason for Vatican II. Secularism was growing fast at that time in the West, and IMO the Church didn't respond to it fast enough, if that was even possible. Maybe if Vatican II occurred 30 years prior....who knows?

I have no evidence about the regionality of sex abuse. BUT it does seem to cluster a bit, probably as one priest debauches others, maybe gets promoted to seminary rector or bishop, debauches seminarians, maybe gets promoted to cardinal, and as a kingmaker nominates like minded snakes to be bishops. Maybe the South has missed some of that clustering. I've seen too much abuse too close to home. I had thought of becoming a deacon but I put that on hold when my archbishop was investigated and later removed. The final report on that never happened. I've aged out of eligibility to become a deacon. Oh well.

Like I said we do have cases of it here, but usually the response towards it is much more open. The guys up top aren't trying to hide it, I guess; or they are better at hiding it than those up North, I don't know.

We had a priest not too long ago that had some credible accusations against him, the diocese reported this to the police, he got suspended, until it was cleared up; and a letter was sent to every parish in the diocese.

I don't see those people ever coming back. But maybe new people can fill their places.

Well I think Covid hurt because we did loose about five older parishioner, sadly. All of them very saintly men and women. But when going to church ceases to be part of your routine, its hard to pick it up again, when you can if that is all it is, a part of your routine.

 

[Gnarwhal]

Was protestant, can confirm iz gun b ded.

I spent 25+ years at the same church, where I grew up, where my mom grew up where my parents met and married, etc. In the last few years I went there it had was a hollow husk of what it used to be. This was a big church. Thriving. So big that they realized the founding pastors vision to build a giant geodesic dome as the main sanctuary. The seating capacity is 1,500 and they would pack out three services every Sunday. Not bad for a city that at the time was around 40,000 people. By the time I left the numbers had fallen so much that they had moved back out of the dome and into the fellowship hall where they had church before the dome was built because the giving was so poor they couldn't justify the cost of operating the dome anymore. The seating capacity there was maybe 1/5 what the dome is and they only had two services. So that's an attendance decline of about 88%.

For a few years my then-wife and I floated around to a few other churches, mostly other non-denominational protestant and it was more or less the same story. As was the case with the PCUSA presbyterian church I attended after my divorce for about six months. And the Episcopal church. They're all treading water. Some of these communities are going to die off when this last generation of believers does because, unlike Catholicism, there's no young generation discovering their spiritual heritage like young traddie Catholics. Where the vacuum left by the modernist shotcallers in the Catholic Church will be filled by the incoming young trad generation (it's inevitable), these protestants have no such reinforcements coming. At least not the mainliners. Evangelicalism is gonna be leaner but it may survive a bit longer because at least a good amount of it is still morally upright.

 

[Erose]

Well we know what is killing the mainline protestant churches and that is conforming to the day and age. Changing their beliefs on contraception, divorce and remarriage, some abortion, gay participation, gay marriage, etc., etc. If I was a congregant of one of these communions I might have been able to swallow one or two changes in teaching, but man it has to be hard to swallow all that change in your lifetime.

Now we have a wing of our Church who wants to follow these communions path. Man people can be stupid.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Does anyone remember Cosmic Charlie? A most liberal Catholic who actually conceded to the problematic lower and lower birth rates occurring???

I remember him ... distantly.

Basically, the number of people being born is lower. A lower rate.
ALSO I worked in insurance and actuaries, those paid people who do REAL CHARTS and such stated in 1996 that by 2030 we are IN DEEP doo doo because the number of replacement birth rates have drastically reduced.

Some countries are in demographic collapse right now. Countries at or below 1.5 children per woman include South Korea, Singapore, Boznia, Italy, Moldova, Cyprus, Greece, UAE, Portugal, Mauritius, Hong Kong, Luxembourg, Ukraine, Spain, Japan, Finland, Santa Lucia, Croatia, Serbia, Malta, North Macedonia, Poland, Canada, Thailand, and Hungary. The world average is 2.4 with some countries in Africa over 4.0. All in all the population of the world will level. The question is whether some countries will zero out in the process.

IE - ya'll gonna pay out a substantial amount of taxes and or kill off anyone ready to retire.

I think that's where it leads.

SECONDLY - what part of the Our Father prayer does it say - our will be done?
And we're gonna block life because well, our wills be done.

Ha!

 

[chevyontheriver]

I would like to see numbers if they even exist of how many converts entered the CC prior to Vatican II and afterwards. Me I'm just going off of what a few old priests, who experienced life on both sides, have told me over the years, that stuck with me. I may or may not be right. I'll do some more research on this matter to clarify one way or another.

I don't know where I can find that graph. There was an inflection point in Catholic growth at 1970. Before that it was steep. Afterwards not so steep. Exactly why a graph can't tell you. So we can speculate. The rather common disappointment in liturgical change, the collapse of catechesis, and birth control I think all had their effects.

One thing I always wondered is that no one has never thought of praying the Pius X Mass in the vernacular. IMO this would make it grow even more. I must say personally, I prefer the new Liturgy over the old, (to use my words carefully). I do prefer to whole Church praying in unison, over just the priest and his servers doing the brunt of the work, while the rest pretty much watch, try their best to follow along (which it easy if the priest is praying softly), or using the time to perform their daily devotions. But that is me. I have nothing against that liturgy, nor against those who prefer it over the new one. As long as they don't fall into the traps of heterodoxy by the VatII deniers.

That was sort of done between 1965 and 1970. It was a (clunky) fairly literal English translation from the TLM in the 1962 edition of pope John XXIII. Not much else changed. The calendar hadn't changed, nor the readings, nor the rubrics as far as I remember. Just the language. That and I think more vocal participation of the laity. I would be happy if it had been small changes of that. And the three year calendar, I like it except in what it deleted. For example, why did Septuagesima have to disappear?

As to Vatican II deniers, I never used to see many. Now you get called that if you don't want to shuck everything we did 60 years ago. There is a hermeneutic of continuity to consider. The crazy left and the crazy right maintain a hermeneutic of rupture, one giddy about it and the other sad about it. Things should develop organically. The liturgy developed organically for almost 2000 years , and then a rupture. Sacrosanctam Concilium wasn't so much fulfilled as it has been used as a pretext for that rupture. The 'reform of the reform' was in the spirit of the hermeneutic of continuity, and hopefully that will continue again some day.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Was protestant, can confirm iz gun b ded.

Evangelicalism is gonna be leaner but it may survive a bit longer because at least a good amount of it is still morally upright.

I wish we could set the stage for an Evangelical and Catholic convergence. But it seems years away. They need us. You could argue it but I think we need them.

 

[Gnarwhal]

I wish we could set the stage for an Evangelical and Catholic convergence. But it seems years away. They need us. You could argue it but I think we need them.

Funny I've had that thought before.

 

[Markie Boy]

I am in a small mid-western town. The Catholic Church is shrinking, and very old. Not much youth.

Lutherans look pretty similar as do Presbyterians and Methodists.

One Baptist church is FULL of families and younger kids, and one Non-Denom is mixed and growing fast. The Catholic Church here is going to be near empty in a decade probably.

I am no longer in the RCC, but still support no-contraception! Pretty much all of Christianity agreed on this until 1930. Protestants generally don't do very well with history IMHO, and I now am one. It's just what I have found as I am searching.