Christian War Fever

[MacFall]

These excerpts from Spurgeon's sermons on "Christian War Fever" were compiled by Laurence M. Vance for his series of essays entitled Christianity and War. I think they are a healthy antidote to the national-collectivist bloodthirst that seems to infect the American church these days.

I'd link to the original article but I guess I need 23 more posts before I can do that.

. . .I do not account it wonderful that one nation should strive against another, I account if far more wonderful that they are not all at arms. Whence come wars and fightings? Come they not from your lusts? Considering how much lust there is in the world, we might well conceive that there would be more war than we see. Sin is the mother of wars; and remembering how plentiful sin is, we need not marvel if it brings forth multitudes of them. We may look for them. If the coming of Christ be indeed drawing nigh, then we must expect wars and rumors of wars through all the nations of the earth ("The God of Peace," November 4, 1855, New Park Street Chapel).

It is astonishing how distance blunts the keen edge of anything that is disagreeable. War is at all times a most fearful scourge. The thought of slain bodies and of murdered men must always harrow up the soul; but because we hear of these things in the distance, there are few Englishmen who can truly enter into their horrors. If we should hear the booming of cannon on the deep which girdles this island; if we should see at our doors the marks of carnage and bloodshed; then should we more thoroughly appreciate what war means. But distance takes away the horror, and we therefore speak of war with too much levity, and even read of it with an interest not sufficiently linked with pain ("A Present Religion," May 30, 1858, Music Hall, Royal Surrey Gardens).​

Better far for us to have famine than war. From all civil war and all the desperate wickedness which it involves, good Lord deliver us; and if thou smitest us as thou hast done, it is better to fall into the hand of God than into the hand of man ("Christian Sympathy," November 9, 1862, Metropolitan Tabernacle).​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The thing that most disturbs me is how quick Christians are to buy the ideas of statism when it comes to war. As soon as the state - by far the institution which most closely approximates the Devil in ideology and operation - declares that those who live under the hand of a rival state are evil, Christians believe the story and cheer on their deaths.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Worse, Christians tend to judge people of other nations not based upon their individual persons, but rather by which gang of thugs taxes and regulates them. This, of course, is what most people in the world do - but shouldn't a Christian follow Christ's words rather than the reasoning of the world that leads them to these collectivist ideas?[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Defense of a person is one thing. But war as it exists today is always and everywhere the program of one gigantic, socialized military-industrial complex either fighting another such organization, or stomping all over the lives and property of smaller nations.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]I would encourage Christians to abandon their War Fever and with it cease their support of the state and its works. The only business a Christian has at the altar of the state is in tearing it down, and the worst a Christian can do is to aid the state in the spilling of more blood upon it.
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[Autumnleaf]

I don't think Christians have war fever. I think lots of Christians graduate high school and can't find a job so they enlist in the military knowing in their hearts its probably not right, but letting their heads rationalize their way into a job with benefits.

These wars are not being pushed by Christians. They are the result of dubious government choices. There is no good reason for the US to be in Iraq or Afghanistan, other than possible reasons never stated such as control over a certain black liquid and a certain illegal narcotic.

 

[Wirraway]

...I would encourage Christians to abandon their War Fever and with it cease their support of the state and its works. The only business a Christian has at the altar of the state is in tearing it down, and the worst a Christian can do is to aid the state in the spilling of more blood upon it....

my service days went from college for a few years afterwards. I signed on because I thought it would be fun and because that's what my family does. and they were good days, all in all. gave me a first rate education, too. "duty" and "honor" probably don't mean much to you because, well, why would they?

I don't remember killing anyone or blowing up another country. never saw an "altar of the state" either. I did see a few whiny kids who grew up.

 

[MacFall]

"duty" and "honor" probably don't mean much to you because, well, why would they?

You assume much. No, I know all about duty and honor. My duty is to Christ and I honor him alone. In so doing I could never kill another person at the behest of a government.

I don't remember killing anyone or blowing up another country

If you didn't, you supported those who did.

never saw an "altar of the state" either.

Are you being sarcastic, or do you really not understand symbolism? The state is a pagan religion. It claims to be the source of rights. Its members claim some sort of metaphysical justification for the taking of property by force and the killing those who resist, and do many other things which are criminal when regular people do it). It has holy writ. It has the arrogance to believe it can create law. It positions itself as the only entity qualified to provide for the physical needs of everyone in its jurisdiction. It has rituals of obeisance. It has an official doctrine in every field of study the opposition of which is regarded as heresy. It has been responsible in the past century for more deaths than all of the privately-committed murders in the past thousand years - yet it claims moral superiority. So if it doesn't have a physical altar, is it really so hard to see where there might be a spiritual one nonetheless?

I did see a few whiny kids who grew up.

So did I, and I never got near the military. Growing up is something that people tend to do. They don't have to become an agent of the state to do it.

 

[Wirraway]

You assume much. No, I know all about duty and honor. My duty is to Christ and I honor him alone. In so doing I could never kill another person at the behest of a government.



If you didn't, you supported those who did.



Are you being sarcastic, or do you really not understand symbolism? The state is a pagan religion. It claims to be the source of rights. Its members claim some sort of metaphysical justification for the taking of property by force and the killing those who resist, and do many other things which are criminal when regular people do it). It has holy writ. It has the arrogance to believe it can create law. It positions itself as the only entity qualified to provide for the physical needs of everyone in its jurisdiction. It has rituals of obeisance. It has an official doctrine in every field of study the opposition of which is regarded as heresy. It has been responsible in the past century for more deaths than all of the privately-committed murders in the past thousand years - yet it claims moral superiority. So if it doesn't have a physical altar, is it really so hard to see where there might be a spiritual one nonetheless?



So did I, and I never got near the military. Growing up is something that people tend to do. They don't have to become an agent of the state to do it.

I'm not being sarcastic, I'm having a good laugh at your expense.

pal, you need a good stiff drink and to climb down from the ceiling before you overload on, and explode from angst..

a lot of good men and women died to preserve your right to whine. I'd be annoyed a little, but, hey, you paid my salary, paid for my education, and my retirement.

come to think of it, I probably did kill a few people not to mention invade a continent or two, maybe even a Planet.

did you think I was referring to you as a kid who didn't grow up? that was perceptive.

 

[MacFall]

I'm not being sarcastic, I'm having a good laugh at your expense.

No you're not. It hasn't cost me anything.

pal, you need a good stiff drink and to climb down from the ceiling before you overload on, and explode from angst.

What angst? I have been more at peace since since I stopped supporting state violence than I can remember ever being before in my life. Ending all the cognitive dissonance probably had something to do with it, but moral consistency is the major benefit. It does make me sad, though, to see how so many Christians are so willing to go against the words of Christ in their support of their governments' military adventures.

a lot of good men and women died to preserve your right to whine.

Bull. I was born with the right to speak my mind. I was created with it. Nobody can "preserve" it anymore than they can "preserve" the very fact that I am a human being. And the only organization with the desire to take it away from me is the same organization who employed you as a military man.

I'd be annoyed a little, but, hey, you paid my salary, paid for my education, and my retirement.

Actually I don't think I paid enough taxes in my life to have given you a cent; it probably all went into social security and medicare which I will never receive, nor want to. But hey, if it makes you feel better to believe that you have benefited from my being robbed by the government, have at it.

come to think of it, I probably did kill a few people not to mention invade a continent or two, maybe even a Planet.

I never said you killed anyone, but you did work for an organization whose purpose is admittedly to kill people and blow stuff up. Just because you didn't get to shoot anyone doesn't mean you didn't contribute to the cause.

did you think I was referring to you as a kid who didn't grow up? that was perceptive.

Wait; I'm a kid who didn't grow up because I decided to actually follow Jesus according to the gospels instead of according to Pat Robinson and Rush Limbaugh? Well I've heard that enough, but almost always from atheists. Being belittled for my principles by fellow Christians is something to which I'm less used, but frankly I'm not surprised. After all, were it not for people like you, I would have had no reason to make this post.

 

[Wirraway]

you get your I Wuz Persecuted Points for the day.

congrats.

also, congrats that you were born in a time and place where someone else paid the price for your right to publically wade in angst while living off someone else's dime. if you were this annoying in, say, occupied Manchuria in '42 or eastern Europe in the 60s or a few dozen other situations, I think you'd last about five minutes.

 

[MacFall]

Are you trying to troll me or something? Because I just got done explaining that I don't have any angst. I really don't. Nor do I have a persecution complex. It's not me that is being persecuted here by your rejection of Christ's words.

Although I do reiterate that since my rights come from God, that nobody else could ever pay the price for them. It's pretty awful that you think you or anyone else ever could.

 

[Wirraway]

Are you trying to troll me or something? Because I just got done explaining that I don't have any angst. I really don't. Nor do I have a persecution complex. It's not me that is being persecuted here by your rejection of Christ's words.

Although I do reiterate that since my rights come from God, that nobody else could ever pay the price for them. It's pretty awful that you think you or anyone else ever could.

you are what you are: an angsty kid.

 

[MacFall]

Oh okay, so you ARE basically a troll. That's good, I don't feel like I owe you a response any more.

 

[Wirraway]

I can't take you seriously, trashing servicemen and women, deceased and serving, just to get your jollies.

grow up, kid.

 

[MacFall]

I am not "trashing servicemen". I am speaking out against Christians serving an organization which is an instrument of violence, theft, deceit, idolatry, and the lust for power. I'm interested to hear how you think you can reconcile that. If you want to discuss the topic at hand, civilly and rationally like an adult, I'll respect you no matter what your position is. But it seems you don't want to try that; you have been content with calling me names, making false assumptions about my motivations, and misrepresenting my position. Which is your right, if the board's owners choose to allow it. But it does make you a troll and a bully, and the appellation of "angsty kid" would fit you far better than it fits me in that case.

 

[Wirraway]

I see where we differ. you talk about "Christians serving an organization which is an instrument of violence, theft, deceit, idolatry, and the lust for power." you must be talking about Marines.

don't bother reading any more of this, its well beyond your mental capacity to either understand much less judge. but for anyone else lurking, one of my friends from Church made two combat jumps into northern Europe with the 82nd Airborne Division in WW2. Tough, wiry guy still. Loves talking and its fascinating to listen to his stories; more important: he's had a good life, kids, grand kids, great grand kids, still active in the Church.

 

[MacFall]

I see where we differ. you talk about "Christians serving an organization which is an instrument of violence, theft, deceit, idolatry, and the lust for power." you must be talking about Marines.

Another false assumption. I am talking about the government as a whole.

 

[Wirraway]

Another false assumption. I am talking about the government as a whole.

theft, deceit and lust for power, check.

 

[BernieEOD]

I did my 26 years in the military to repel invaders, not to be one.
When 9-11 happened, we were assigned to domestic harbor security duty.
I make no apologies for patrolling harbors against those who seek to blow up ships and other facilities and diving under ships in search of bombs in order to disarm them. When Iraq started, I withdrew my request for another reprieve from mandatory retirement and submitted my retirement papers. Every time a minister blessed the bombs we were dropping over there, I have and will continue to confront him in his error.

 

[Fenrir003]

Soo...... Is anybody in this thread actually military???... If you take the time to read the gospels then you would see that many of Jesus' followers were in the service of the roman government. That doesn't mean that they were blindly following a mantra that they had been taught. It's a personal choice that is decided between God and the individual. The military isn't always about war. lol.. Any service member will tell you that if you sit through a few combat briefings you will notice a recurring theme.. Avoid conflict as much as possible. Jerusalem had soldiers in it's time. David was a soldier. As were many of God's chosen leaders.. I am in the military. I am a christian.. I am a firefighter. That means I'm in the business of saving lives, regardles of what side of the line they are on. Many of the honorable people I know in the military are believers. They chose this line of work for a reason. That reason is between them and God. It is not your place to call names and cast judgement on someone. "Judge not, least ye shall also be judged." I respect your opinion. However, please don't reckon those of us in service as dogs following a master's bidding and nothing more. Further more. If you call yourself a christian, why not pray for those in service? Don't cast hate and judgement on them.. Like I have stated before. Everyoe who has taken the oath has joined for a reason. No. It isn't always because thay can't wait to fire on an enemy with a rifle.. The guys like that actually don't last long in the military. A christians choice is between them, God and no one else.. God uses everyone regardless of who or what they are. I find that evey day God uses someone to get to me.. lolol.. And most of the time is the last person I would expect. Do not judge someone for their choices.. Regardles of what that choice may be. If it bothers you, go to God about it.

 

[MacFall]

If I believe that a Christian is acting in an un-Christlike manner, then I certainly do have a responsibility to tell them so. That doesn't mean I hate them or that I'm judging them, but I am judging the philosophy behind the military. The philosophy is one of collectivism and legal positivism; the actions of an individual range from heroism to murder. When in the service of politicians it is very unlikely that anyone's actions will tend toward heroism, however. Even a just cause can be undermined when it is sought by unjust means, and the political class have no interest in justice.

 

[MacFall]

Soo...... Is anybody in this thread actually military???... If you take the time to read the gospels then you would see that many of Jesus' followers were in the service of the roman government.

Yes, all of Jesus' followers were sinners. Jesus didn't kick any of them out of the club.

The military isn't always about war.

Really? Are you actually saying that?

please don't reckon those of us in service as dogs following a master's bidding and nothing more.

You mean you don't follow orders? Are you not expected to do so without question? Is not disobedience of an executive order a federal crime?

If you call yourself a christian, why not pray for those in service?

I do.

Everyoe who has taken the oath has joined for a reason.

What does that mean? Everybody who does anything at all does it for a reason.

It isn't always because thay can't wait to fire on an enemy with a rifle.

No, I suspect they believe they are fighting for freedom and justice and other such concepts. How that can be done with an organization controlled by politicians, I have yet to hear.

A christians choice is between them, God and no one else.

Does the Christian soldier offer the same choice to those on whom they drop bombs and level rifles when ordered to do so?

Do not judge someone for their choices.

I don't judge people for their choices, but I do judge the choices. And to me, the choice to surrender one's individual will and follow the orders of government bureaucrats is without exception a bad one. All the worse when they are ordering people to kill.

 

[Wirraway]

McFall, do you know anyone in the military personally? active or retired?