Christian Position on Opposing the Legality of Same Sex Marriage of Non-Christians

[ken777]

I'm not sure what you mean by overt christian character, but the character of each individual President's inauguration doesn't endorse Christian law, at least I can't see why. I'm curious what your justification of that is.

By "overt Christian character" of the inauguration I was referring to more than the oath on the Bible, and some of the songs sung, but also the invocation and benediction parts of the ceremony where representatives of the Church offer prayers in Jesus' name.

My argument was that Christianity is ingrained in our culture and therefore should be allowed a voice in promoting laws that reflect Christian morality. These laws will not always be endorsed by government but we should not be reluctant to make our voice heard.

This is counter to those who argue the Church has no right to influence the law making process in a secular society.

In particular, I related this argument to laws pertaining to marriage. Society benefits when the people live according to God's ordained purpose. The more this is flouted, the more society will be harmed.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I'm not asking if same sex relationships are compatible with Scripture. I know they're not, and I'm not having a crisis over it or anything like that. What I'm wondering about is to what degree should we oppose it on a legal level. I started thinking about it when reading Mere Christianity again. As C.S. Lewis says:

"Before leaving the question of divorce, I should like to distinguish two things which are very often confused. The Christian conception of marriage is one: the other is quite the different question—how far Christians, if they are voters or Members of Parliament, ought to try to force their views of marriage on the rest of the community by embodying them in the divorce laws. A great many people seem to think that if you are a Christian yourself you should try to make divorce difficult for every one. I do not think that. At least I know I should be very angry if the Mohammedans tried to prevent the rest of us from drinking wine.

My own view is that the Churches should frankly recognize that the majority of the British people are not Christian and, therefore, cannot be expected to live Christian lives. There ought to be two distinct kinds of marriage: one governed by the State with rules enforced on all citizens, the other governed by the church with rules enforced by her on her own members. The distinction ought to be quite sharp, so that a man knows which couples are married in a Christian sense and which are not."

What do you guys think? I realize Lewis isn't scripture, and would never treat it as such. However, Christ makes it clear that His kingdom isn't of this world, and the apostles always wrote to be loyal, even during persecution.

Should we just make a distinction between Godly and worldly marriages?

I think it's more important to present the non-believer with the possibility of Christ as Sovereign Lord than for us to face off with them, worrying about each and every interaction each non-believer has with other non-believers. We need to major on majors, not on minors. (Although, don't take my semantics wrongly; a minor spiritual issue is still ... a spiritual issue.)

In other words, if non-believers wake up to Christ, they'll also come to realize if and where they fall short in their lives.

 

[Rion]

Does that mean that God does not recognize these marriages as true marriages? Are they somehow invalid with God?

I'm not God, so I can't say. However, is the five times divorced individual who marries again considered valid to God? Should we oppose divorce as Christians? I'm honestly asking.

 

[Armoured]

And it was given. Others have not ignored that evidence was given, they even attempted to refute or explain some of it.
Take just one broad point made, addressed by others and not refuted.
Explain how encouraging behavior that demonstrably produces health/mortality issues is not personally harmful to everyone in the society.

As has been explained multiple times now, your causality is backwards. Homosexuality does not cause health/mortality issues.

And even if it did, we allow smoking, drinking, extreme sports, casual dating, droping out of edcation, overeating, poor diet... all sorts of stuff that produce health/mortality issues. They're not generally considered harmful to society

 

[Hank77]

I'm not God, so I can't say. However, is the five times divorced individual who marries again considered valid to God? Should we oppose divorce as Christians? I'm honestly asking.

This thread is not about divorce it's about marriage. So I will stay on topic.

 

[Rion]

This thread is not about divorce it's about marriage. So I will stay on topic.

...I brought up divorce in the OP though.

 

[Hank77]

...I brought up divorce in the OP though.

Opps...sorry, seriously I have slept since I read it last.

However, is the five times divorced individual who marries again considered valid to God?

The person or the marriages? I think in both cases it depends. I believe there are valid reasons for some divorces. Who left and wouldn't come back and at least try counseling. Should the other person have to live alone and maybe never be a parent because their first spouse left them?
As far as the person goes I believe if they come to God in true repentance after these divorces God forgives.

Should we oppose divorce as Christians?

Generally yes.
But if they are not a Christian and Christians don't consider their worldly marriage valid with God anyway, why should Christians oppose them getting a legal divorce?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

As has been explained multiple times now, your causality is backwards. Homosexuality does not cause health/mortality issues.

And even if it did, we allow smoking, drinking, extreme sports, casual dating, droping out of edcation, overeating, poor diet... all sorts of stuff that produce health/mortality issues. They're not generally considered harmful to society

A claim that something was "explained" does not mean the point is invalid. Even the govt LGBT friendly websites recognize a discrepancy in health/mortality issues with the rest of the population.
Agreed the only difference is the cause - not agreed that it is all backwards. Again hard to see a focus on appearance or engaging in behavior that is physically destruction to various parts of the body as being something that is the fault of homophobes. Homophobia is not contributing to the destruction of people's waste disposal system for example. Ditto the psychological effects of living in a manner opposed to reality and human dignity which has nothing to do with any external stress that may come from homophobes.

Am unaware of the government extending benefits encouraging any of the activities that you have suggested are comparable. Besides I would disagree that excess in any of those "examples" could be said to contributing positively to society. We typically do not view alcoholism as being a positive for society. If someone sees that as a positive, then I guess we could understand why such a person would say encouraging any self destructive behavior is a positive. Is that the thinning the heard concept?

 

[Armoured]

A claim that something was "explained" does not mean the point is invalid. Even the govt LGBT friendly websites recognize a discrepancy in health/mortality issues with the rest of the population.
Agreed the only difference is the cause - not agreed that it is all backwards. Again hard to see a focus on appearance or engaging in behavior that is physically destruction to various parts of the body as being something that is the fault of homophobes. Homophobia is not contributing to the destruction of people's waste disposal system for example. Ditto the psychological effects of living in a manner opposed to reality and human dignity which has nothing to do with any external stress that may come from homophobes.

You should try looking at objective sources. Want some?

Am unaware of the government extending benefits encouraging any of the activities that you have suggested are comparable. Besides I would disagree that excess in any of those "examples" could be said to contributing positively to society. We typically do not view alcoholism as being a positive for society. If someone sees that as a positive, then I guess we could understand why such a person would say encouraging any self destructive behavior is a positive. Is that the thinning the heard concept?

What about dysfunctional hetero marriages? The government extends benefits to them. They're not very positive for society

 

[DrBubbaLove]

You should try looking at objective sources. Want some?What about dysfunctional hetero marriages? The government extends benefits to them. They're not very positive for society

Again, every source I have found clearly shows health issues with the LGBT community, many of those sites mention and/or even suggest the stress of living in a culture opposed to the way most in that community want to live contributes to the disparity in health within that portion of the population.
Am just simply acknowledging that an external source of stress cannot explain ALL the health issues because the external culture is not the driver for many of the things cited as causing/contributing factors to health problems. Again even the LGBT friendly govt sites mentions some behaviors that will naturally result in poorer health statistics. Behaviors that our not externally driven. Behaviors a society should not be encouraging.
I mentioned the dysfunctional hetero marriages and those too are a net negative to society. I also pointed out that we do not help that situation by encouraging more dysfunctional "family" units and unless SS "marriages" with children could be shown as better than hetero in that area, then encouraging such unions could only exacerbate the problem. You don't make a fire cooler by adding more fuel. I see no reason to believe or assume SS "marriages" would be any less dysfunctional that real marriages. Conversely such unions would have to be better to improve things.

 

[SilverBear]

My understanding is the LGBT community has higher rates of all causes of death, not just suicide as well as lower longevity.

You're understanding is wrong.

Some of the health risks are directly attributable to sexual behavior. Nothing has been posted here to dispute these health stats. That difference alone represents added cost to any society encouraging such behavior.

But let's pretend for a moment that this is the case. So what? Is this really a justification for discrimination?

It makes no sense to suggest the underlying issues in health that such death stats depict can all be explained by social pressure from culture. Especially when the current culture today tends to promote the behavior and tends to disparage "breeders". As to specific death causes, I tend to agree social pressure could explain some (not all) of the suicidal behavior of the young in the LGBT population. But it is much harder to understand a culture connection with older portions of that population maintaining higher suicide rates. Absent a serious effort to teach people with such attractions an alternative way to live out their life, (which many did do at one time) there is also an assumption being made that this can only be alleviated by giving them the OK to sin and encouraging that behavior.

the negative effect of hatred and persecution and discrimination are cumulative.

One this noted by the extensive research in this area is that suicidal behavior in gay/lesbian youth is dropping significantly as Institutionalized discrimination fades and social consciousness rises.

I would submit even if everyone rejoiced in their having same sex attractions, they can never be truly happy acting on those desires because it opposes the reality of the way God made us. Opposing reality in our life is not a good thing.

so lying about being gay/lesbian is a way to embrace reality.

Many contend that lack of happiness will keep the mortality rate of all death causes higher than everyone else. Besides, by the same logic of social pressure used to dismiss the point, the relatively LGBT friendly culture today should have improved all the numbers across the board. I see nothing presented to suggest that is happening.

Friendly?

If my house or a lot of houses have burned down or are on fire or in danger of it, it is not "silly" to point out that it would be a negative to the community to set other houses on fire or build houses more prone to fire next door to the ones already burning. So at the very least SS couple would need to be better than a heterosexual couple or we would be adding to the already existing problem. I see no evidence to suggest SS couples would be better at being part of the working foundation of human societies as "family units", and a lot of evidence to suggest they would not be better. Even if they were just as good, the costs of attempting to make them as productive as the rest of our family units is still a net increase cost on society. A cost we would forego if we were not encouraging the behavior.

how much of your evidence comes from anti-gay groups?

There are lot of costs to society that we would not otherwise have if we did promote the behavior. I detailed some of those. Almost none of those have been addressed by anyone's response except to suggest they might be silly or caused by society pressure.

SS couples playing at marriage no less viable? In what way? Of course they are less viable, they can't produce new members of society without societies assistance. Assistance which also translates to additional efforts and costs to society that we would not otherwise have absent encouraging the behavior.

In my experience and also from what I have read, SS unions are less stable and generally do not last as long.

Again where are you getting your information?

That long lasting examples of any type of union could be pointed to are not proof against what appears to be a norm among SS relationships. If anyone has data suggesting otherwise, please share.

I think especially in the age range of what would typically be a family unit producing new members for society, the disparity in length of relationships would be the greatest. Also there seems to be an extreme focus on appearance in a large portion of this population of people. Such a focus works against the idea of a long term commitment regardless of the orientation of one's sexual desires. That focus also raises health concerns for individuals attempting to cope with the pressure of maintaining appearance.

It is not a matter of change in society, at least not a positive one as mentioned above. The basic building block of ALL human society is the family unit and that has been true through out human history. Humans take a long time to mature. That fact means dedication and work are need to produce new members of society. Work that needs to be shared by at least two people over a significant period of their life. That those two people need be a male-female couple could be argued for/against on several very important points, but there is no natural way except that one that can most efficiently produce an essential element to maintaining human societies.

does your natural law reasoning extend to the infertile? or do you want natural law to only apply to people you have personal prejudice against?

 

[SilverBear]

Plenty have been given so far. I will agree none have been rebutted other than to suggest they might be "silly". Same person acknowledged health costs/issues but falsely suggested resulted from societal pressure against the behavior (blatantly false).

.Once again here is a short list of research into the impact of societal pressure on homosexuals.

M.J. Rotherman-Borus Suicidal Behavior and Gay-Related Stress among Gay and Bisexual Male Adolescents Journal of adolescent research 2013


V. P. Poteat and D. L. Espelage Predicting Psychosocial Consequences of Homophobic Victimization in Middle School Students Journal of Adolescence 2009


Meyer, I. H . Prejudice, social stress, and mental health in lesbian, gay, and bisexual populations. Psychological Bulletin, Sep 2003


V.M. Mays & S.D. Cochran “Mental health correlates of perceived discrimination among lesbian, gay and bisexual adults in the United States 2001

J. Ramirez-Valles, L. M. Kuhns, R. T. Campbell, and R. M. Diaz Social Integration and Health: Community Involvement, Stigmatized Identities, and Sexual Risk in Latino Sexual Minorities journal of health and societal behavior.2010

L. E. Ross, C. Dobinson, and A. Eady Perceived Determinants of Mental Health for Bisexual People: A Qualitative Examination American Journal of Public Health 2009

S. K. Dane and G. MacDonald Heterosexuals' acceptance predicts the well-being of same-sex attracted young adults beyond ingroup support Journal of social and personal relationships 2007

D. M. Huebner, G. M. Rebchook, and S. M. Kegeles. Experiences of Harassment, Discrimination, and Physical Violence Among Young Gay and Bisexual Men American Journal of public heath 2005


Mays, V.M. and Cochran, S.D. Mental Health Correlates of Perceived Discrimination Among Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual Adults in the United States. American Journal of Public Health Nov 2001


M.L. Hatzenbuehler The Social Environment and Suicide Attempts in Lesbian Gay and Bisexual Youth. Pediatrics 2011


Cochran, S.D. Sulivan, J.G. and Mays V.M. Prevalence of mental disorders, psychological distress, and mental services use among lesbian, gay, and bisexual adults in the United States. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, Feb 2003


Sanfort, T.G.M., deGraaf, R. and Schnabel, P. Same-Sex Sexual Behavior and Psychiatric Disorders: : Findings From the Netherlands Mental Health Survey and Incidence Study. Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2001


Meyer, I. H. Minority Stress and Mental Health in Gay Men Journal of health and social behavior 2010


Fredrikson, K.I et al Successful Aging Among LGBT Older Adults: Physical and Mental Health-Related Quality of Life by Age Group. The Gerontologist Sept 2014


Kattari, S.K. and Hasche, L. Differences Across Age Groups in Transgender and Gender Non-Conforming People's Experiences of Health Care Discrimination, Harassment, and Victimization. J of Aging June 2015


Peel, E. and Nodin, N. Risk and Resilience Explored for Sexual Minorities in England: Qualitative Findings. Applied Qualitative Research in Psychology, Aug 2014


Holloway, I. W. Padilla, M. B. and WIllner, L. Effects of Minority stress processes on the mental health of Latino men who have sex with men. Arch of sexual behavior Sept 2014


Charles K. et al Sexual minority status and trauma symptom severity. J of behavioral medicine Jan 2011


Marshal, P.M. and Dermody S.S. Depressive symptoms and suicidality among heterosexual and sexual minority youth J of youth and adolescence april 2013


Pachankis J. E. and COcran, S.D. The mental health of sexual minority adults in and out of the closet: A population-based study. J of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, Oct 2015


Bostwick W.B. et al. Discrimination and mental health among lesbian, gay, and bisexual adults in the United States. Am J of Orthopshcyiatry Jan 2014


D. M. Huebner, G. M. Rebchook, and S. M. Kegeles. Experiences of Harassment, Discrimination, and Physical Violence Among Young Gay and Bisexual Men American Journal of public heath 2005


Hershberger, S.L. N.W. Pilkington and A.R. D’Augelli. Predictors of Suicide Attempts Among Gay, Lesbian, and Bisexual Youth. J of Adolescent research. 1997


Poteat, V.P. and D.L Espelage. Predicting Psychosocial Consequences of Homophobic Victimization in Middle School Students J of Adolescent research. 2007


Meyer, I. H . Prejudice, social stress, and mental health in lesbian, gay, and bisexual populations. Psychological Bulletin, Sep 2003


S. K. Dane and G. MacDonald Heterosexuals' acceptance predicts the well-being of same-sex attracted young adults beyond ingroup support Journal of social and personal relationships 2007


Kyung-Hee Choi, Paul J. Experiences of Discrimination and Their Impact on the Mental Health among African American, Asian and Pacific Islander, and Latino Men Who Have Sex with Men. Am J Public Health. 2013


Savin-Williams, Ritch C. Verbal and physical abuse as stressors in the lives of lesbian, gay male, and bisexual youths: Associations with school problems, running away, substance abuse, prostitution, and suicide. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 2014


Graham L.F. Et al Factors Influencing Depression and Anxiety among Black Sexual Minority Men. J of depression research and treatment 2011

The fact that person had to address health costs/issues means "none so far" is also false.

Ignoring the negative impact on a society endorsing a behavior that is a net loss for that society is personally harming everyone in that society - on just a cost basis alone.

African Americans actaully do have shorter life expediencies and are more prone to many chronic diseases. Is this a justification for racism and racial discrimination?

 

[SilverBear]

And it was given. Others have not ignored that evidence was given, they even attempted to refute or explain some of it.
Take just one broad point made, addressed by others and not refuted.
Explain how encouraging behavior that demonstrably produces health/mortality issues is not personally harmful to everyone in the society.

you havn't demonstrated this, all you have done is announce you are sure it is the case.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

You're understanding is wrong.

I would submit even if everyone rejoiced in their having same sex attractions, they can never be truly happy acting on those desires because it opposes the reality of the way God made us. Opposing reality in our life is not a good thing.

so lying about being gay/lesbian is a way to embrace reality.


Friendly?

how much of your evidence comes from anti-gay groups?

Again where are you getting your information?

does your natural law reasoning extend to the infertile? or do you want natural law to only apply to people you have personal prejudice against?

How is the current LGBT friendly govt site wrong in saying it is true that the LGBT community has health issues clearly reflected in stats?
Where do I get my info?
Any search engine will reveal all sorts of claims about health stats. None that I have found paint a positive picture. The only difference between sites are suggested primary causes for the differences. Pointing out a single study where someone claims gay men have avg life expectancy of 42 is hardly proof that all these studies are bogus. Just looking at cigarette usage alone shows significant usage disparity in the LGBT community, some portions of LGBT twice that of straight community. That fact alone will contribute to all sorts of health problems.

Everyone being happy about a group of people sinning would not reduce the health issues the group behavior itself generates; like stress over appearance, weight and weight related issues for example. Same with health effects from using parts of the body for something they were not intended to be used for along with doing that with multiple partners that have done same. Those habits are a part of the behavior being encouraged. Such things will lead to all sorts of health problems, which society would not otherwise have to deal with as much of if it were not encouraging the behavior.

Higher rates of unhealthy habits, even though some of that might be attributable to negative pressure from the rest of the population (including family) it cannot account for all of these self destructive habits. All such things in themselves create health issues that are unique to the LGBT community. I see no evidence suggesting those living in predominately LGBT and LGBT friendly communities have better health than other segments of LGBT, which would be expected if the claim the disparity is from being treated "unequally" accounted for most of the disparity.

Many of these issues can be reduced and in some cases eliminated by living a celibate life. That is not difficult to understand, but it is difficult to do. Doing the right thing, even if it is difficult, should be what society endorses not the opposite.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

.Once again here is a short list of research into the impact of societal pressure on homosexuals.

M.J. Rotherman-Borus Suicidal Behavior and Gay-Related Stress among Gay and Bisexual Male Adolescents Journal of adolescent research 2013


V. P. Poteat and D. L. Espelage Predicting Psychosocial Consequences of Homophobic Victimization in Middle School Students Journal of Adolescence 2009


Meyer, I. H . Prejudice, social stress, and mental health in lesbian, gay, and bisexual populations. Psychological Bulletin, Sep 2003


V.M. Mays & S.D. Cochran “Mental health correlates of perceived discrimination among lesbian, gay and bisexual adults in the United States 2001

J. Ramirez-Valles, L. M. Kuhns, R. T. Campbell, and R. M. Diaz Social Integration and Health: Community Involvement, Stigmatized Identities, and Sexual Risk in Latino Sexual Minorities journal of health and societal behavior.2010

L. E. Ross, C. Dobinson, and A. Eady Perceived Determinants of Mental Health for Bisexual People: A Qualitative Examination American Journal of Public Health 2009

S. K. Dane and G. MacDonald Heterosexuals' acceptance predicts the well-being of same-sex attracted young adults beyond ingroup support Journal of social and personal relationships 2007

D. M. Huebner, G. M. Rebchook, and S. M. Kegeles. Experiences of Harassment, Discrimination, and Physical Violence Among Young Gay and Bisexual Men American Journal of public heath 2005


Mays, V.M. and Cochran, S.D. Mental Health Correlates of Perceived Discrimination Among Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual Adults in the United States. American Journal of Public Health Nov 2001


M.L. Hatzenbuehler The Social Environment and Suicide Attempts in Lesbian Gay and Bisexual Youth. Pediatrics 2011


Cochran, S.D. Sulivan, J.G. and Mays V.M. Prevalence of mental disorders, psychological distress, and mental services use among lesbian, gay, and bisexual adults in the United States. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, Feb 2003


Sanfort, T.G.M., deGraaf, R. and Schnabel, P. Same-Sex Sexual Behavior and Psychiatric Disorders: : Findings From the Netherlands Mental Health Survey and Incidence Study. Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2001


Meyer, I. H. Minority Stress and Mental Health in Gay Men Journal of health and social behavior 2010


Fredrikson, K.I et al Successful Aging Among LGBT Older Adults: Physical and Mental Health-Related Quality of Life by Age Group. The Gerontologist Sept 2014


Kattari, S.K. and Hasche, L. Differences Across Age Groups in Transgender and Gender Non-Conforming People's Experiences of Health Care Discrimination, Harassment, and Victimization. J of Aging June 2015


Peel, E. and Nodin, N. Risk and Resilience Explored for Sexual Minorities in England: Qualitative Findings. Applied Qualitative Research in Psychology, Aug 2014


Holloway, I. W. Padilla, M. B. and WIllner, L. Effects of Minority stress processes on the mental health of Latino men who have sex with men. Arch of sexual behavior Sept 2014


Charles K. et al Sexual minority status and trauma symptom severity. J of behavioral medicine Jan 2011


Marshal, P.M. and Dermody S.S. Depressive symptoms and suicidality among heterosexual and sexual minority youth J of youth and adolescence april 2013


Pachankis J. E. and COcran, S.D. The mental health of sexual minority adults in and out of the closet: A population-based study. J of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, Oct 2015


Bostwick W.B. et al. Discrimination and mental health among lesbian, gay, and bisexual adults in the United States. Am J of Orthopshcyiatry Jan 2014


D. M. Huebner, G. M. Rebchook, and S. M. Kegeles. Experiences of Harassment, Discrimination, and Physical Violence Among Young Gay and Bisexual Men American Journal of public heath 2005


Hershberger, S.L. N.W. Pilkington and A.R. D’Augelli. Predictors of Suicide Attempts Among Gay, Lesbian, and Bisexual Youth. J of Adolescent research. 1997


Poteat, V.P. and D.L Espelage. Predicting Psychosocial Consequences of Homophobic Victimization in Middle School Students J of Adolescent research. 2007


Meyer, I. H . Prejudice, social stress, and mental health in lesbian, gay, and bisexual populations. Psychological Bulletin, Sep 2003


S. K. Dane and G. MacDonald Heterosexuals' acceptance predicts the well-being of same-sex attracted young adults beyond ingroup support Journal of social and personal relationships 2007


Kyung-Hee Choi, Paul J. Experiences of Discrimination and Their Impact on the Mental Health among African American, Asian and Pacific Islander, and Latino Men Who Have Sex with Men. Am J Public Health. 2013


Savin-Williams, Ritch C. Verbal and physical abuse as stressors in the lives of lesbian, gay male, and bisexual youths: Associations with school problems, running away, substance abuse, prostitution, and suicide. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 2014


Graham L.F. Et al Factors Influencing Depression and Anxiety among Black Sexual Minority Men. J of depression research and treatment 2011



African Americans actaully do have shorter life expediencies and are more prone to many chronic diseases. Is this a justification for racism and racial discrimination?

Stating the truth that encouraging obviously self destructive behavior is a negative to society is not the same as denying negative society pressure has caused mental stress to the LGBT community. A statement of fact is also not promoting or justifying discrimination. That you want to make this about civil rights is also not a surprise. I have not made a case for or against any civil rights. I have made a case against the wisdom of a society encouraging self destructive behavior, which can only result in a net loss for such a society.

I never denied such mental stress exists or that having such mental stress could cause health related issues or suicide. However and once again mental stress from such pressure does not explain all the LGBT health issues, or even all the mental stress they have. As explained before either here or elsewhere, acting to degrade and attack the dignity of one's body will in itself create mental stress. Just like treating others in a manner that does that (slavery, abortion, murder...etc) all do that. That is mental stress from the internal conflict taking such actions creates. That's the reason many suggest the only way to avoid such stress is to not act on the desires that lead to the act that creates that stress. Encouraging such behavior will never remove that type of stress.

Explain how negative views from society would cause a focus by some within the group on appearance - a focus that itself induces the sort of mental stress that leads many to suicide and weight related health issues regardless of orientation. Explain how the negative pressure you mention being at least somewhat reduced by living in very large LGBT friendly communities is not reflected in a reduction of issues for which such stress could be a contributor, smoking for example. It would not surprise me to learn such communities have more incidents of health issues, rather than fewer and that would work against the claim that most of this is just mental stress from dealing with external negative pressure from society.

 

[ken777]

However, is the five times divorced individual who marries again considered valid to God? Should we oppose divorce as Christians? I'm honestly asking.

The Church's response to divorce cannot be equated with its attitude towards ssm. Scripture allows remarriage after divorce in some situations; it never allows ssm.

Divorced people remarrying consummate their marriage according to God's natural law; ssm is a perversion of God's natural law.

That there is no reason same sex siblings could not marry shows why ssm can never be equivalent to heterosexual marriage. The push for "marriage equality" is going in the direction of removing incest as a barrier to marriage. Eventually the restriction of one spouse at a time will be removed as well.

Once the natural, historical & universal definition of marriage is changed, we must expect other changes to follow which will have a deleterious impact on our society.

 

[SilverBear]

How is the current LGBT friendly govt site wrong in saying it is true that the LGBT community has health issues clearly reflected in stats?
Where do I get my info?
Any search engine will reveal all sorts of claims about health stats. None that I have found paint a positive picture. The only difference between sites are suggested primary causes for the differences. Pointing out a single study where someone claims gay men have avg life expectancy of 42 is hardly proof that all these studies are bogus. Just looking at cigarette usage alone shows significant usage disparity in the LGBT community, some portions of LGBT twice that of straight community. That fact alone will contribute to all sorts of health problems.

Cameron's bogus "study" began the claims of a shortened life expectancy that is intrinsic to homosexuals. There are no actual studies because life expectancy is based on long term analysis of hundreds of information on variables gathered in actually tables.

Everyone being happy about a group of people sinning would not reduce the health issues the group behavior itself generates; like stress over appearance, weight and weight related issues for example.

Children don't experience massive increases in abuse from their parents for being over weight. Over weight teens are not disowned or kicked out of the home. The overweight don't experience violence because of their weight. No one is trying to take away or deny civil rights to the obese. Non one is advocating the overweight be put into concentration camps. American's haven't donated millions of dollars to advocate another country enact "kill the fatties" laws.

Same with health effects from using parts of the body for something they were not intended to be used for

Like how fingers were not intended to type on a keyboard?

along with doing that with multiple partners that have done same. Those habits are a part of the behavior being encouraged. Such things will lead to all sorts of health problems, which society would not otherwise have to deal with as much of if it were not encouraging the behavior.

Gay promiscuity is as big a myth as the shortened life expectancy.
What research as found is that there is no difference between heterosexual and homosexual men in the number of sexual partners
Goodreau S.M. & Golden M.R. 2007 Biological and demographic causes of high HIV and sexually transmitted disease prevalence in men who have sex with men. J of sexually transmitted infections

Glick S.N, Morris, M. et al 2012 A comparison of sexual behavior patterns among men who have sex with men and heterosexual men and women. J of Urban Health

Finer, L.B. & Darrocy J.E. 1999 Sexual partnership patterns as a behavioral risk factor for sexually transmitted diseases. Family Planning Perspective

Billy, J.O. et al 2003 the sexual behavior of men in the United States. Family Planning Perspectives

Fay, R.2009 Prevalence and patterns of same-gender sexual contact among men. Science

Higher rates of unhealthy habits, even though some of that might be attributable to negative pressure from the rest of the population (including family) it cannot account for all of these self destructive habits. All such things in themselves create health issues that are unique to the LGBT community. I see no evidence suggesting those living in predominately LGBT and LGBT friendly communities have better health than other segments of LGBT, which would be expected if the claim the disparity is from being treated "unequally" accounted for most of the disparity.

I somehow doubt you actually looked

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Cameron's bogus "study" began the claims of a shortened life expectancy that is intrinsic to homosexuals. There are no actual studies because life expectancy is based on long term analysis of hundreds of information on variables gathered in actually tables.

Children don't experience massive increases in abuse from their parents for being over weight. Over weight teens are not disowned or kicked out of the home. The overweight don't experience violence because of their weight. No one is trying to take away or deny civil rights to the obese. Non one is advocating the overweight be put into concentration camps. American's haven't donated millions of dollars to advocate another country enact "kill the fatties" laws.


Like how fingers were not intended to type on a keyboard?


Gay promiscuity is as big a myth as the shortened life expectancy.
What research as found is that there is no difference between heterosexual and homosexual men in the number of sexual partners
Goodreau S.M. & Golden M.R. 2007 Biological and demographic causes of high HIV and sexually transmitted disease prevalence in men who have sex with men. J of sexually transmitted infections

Glick S.N, Morris, M. et al 2012 A comparison of sexual behavior patterns among men who have sex with men and heterosexual men and women. J of Urban Health

Finer, L.B. & Darrocy J.E. 1999 Sexual partnership patterns as a behavioral risk factor for sexually transmitted diseases. Family Planning Perspective

Billy, J.O. et al 2003 the sexual behavior of men in the United States. Family Planning Perspectives

Fay, R.2009 Prevalence and patterns of same-gender sexual contact among men. Science



I somehow doubt you actually looked

If there is evidence that the LGBT community is healthier in SF or NYC than other segments of LGBT populations then go ahead and present it. Good luck with that.

Am not suggesting LGBT have more partners than straight people. Besides, true or not, the case of whether encouraging such sexual behavior would be a negative to society remains unchanged - which means a law doing so should be opposed.

The OPs question was whether Christians oppose the legality of these unions. The simple and obvious answer is yes, and for many reasons. Principally we are encouraging immoral behavior by having a law recognizing those partnerships as a "marriage". It is endorsing the false idea/narrative that the morality in sexual behavior hinges only on mutual consent and love.

Socially, everyone should oppose the encouragement of behavior that is negative to society. There is zero way to present the legalization of SS unions as "marriage" as not encouraging behavior that is both immoral and that creates an increased burden on society - in one manner with associated increase in health issues.

As far as civil rights and discrimination, I was not making a case for or against civil rights. The weight issues in LGBT population is well documented and has nothing to do with discrimination or civil rights or bullying. Some of those weight issues are self induced by segments of the community being hyper-appearance focused. There is no way to turn stating that fact into a discrimination/civil rights issue.

 

[SilverBear]

If there is evidence that the LGBT community is healthier in SF or NYC than other segments of LGBT populations then go ahead and present it. Good luck with that.

You must be tired from moving goal posts so much.

You have repeatedly stated that homosexuals have a lower life expectancy. The research shows this to be wrong. You have claimed the existence of studies and government research confirming that homosexuals have a lower life expectancy - I've asked for references but have received only silence on this

Am not suggesting LGBT have more partners than straight people. Besides, true or not, the case of whether encouraging such sexual behavior would be a negative to society remains unchanged - which means a law doing so should be opposed.

The OPs question was whether Christians oppose the legality of these unions. The simple and obvious answer is yes, and for many reasons. Principally we are encouraging immoral behavior by having a law recognizing those partnerships as a "marriage". It is endorsing the false idea/narrative that the morality in sexual behavior hinges only on mutual consent and love.

Socially, everyone should oppose the encouragement of behavior that is negative to society. There is zero way to present the legalization of SS unions as "marriage" as not encouraging behavior that is both immoral and that creates an increased burden on society - in one manner with associated increase in health issues.

African Americans actaully do have shorter life expediencies and are more prone to many chronic diseases. should everyone should oppose the encouragement of behavior that is negative to society?

As far as civil rights and discrimination, I was not making a case for or against civil rights.

you actually are.

The weight issues in LGBT population is well documented and has nothing to do with discrimination or civil rights or bullying. Some of those weight issues are self induced by segments of the community being hyper-appearance focused. There is no way to turn stating that fact into a discrimination/civil rights issue.

And again you are incorrect. Discrimination and obesity are intrinsically linked.
Shelton R.C., Puleo, E. Bennett, G.G. et al The Association Between Racial and Gender Discrimination and Body Mass Index. Natl Institute of Health

Valanis B, Bowen DJ, Bassford T, Whitlock E, Charney P, Carter RA. 2009 Sexual orientation and health: Comparison in the Women’s Health Initiative samples. Archives of Family Medicine

Diamant AL, Wold C. 2003 Sexual orientation and discrimination in physical and mental health status among women. Journal of Women's Health

Wright J, Harwood V. Biopolitics and the Obesity Epidemic 2008: Taylor & Francis

Muennig P. 2008 The body politic: the relationship between stigma and obesity-associated disease. J. of Public Health

Gough B, Flanders G. 2009 Obese bodies: gay bears talk about weight, body image and health. J. of Men's Health Fall

 

[DrBubbaLove]

You must be tired from moving goal posts so much.

You have repeatedly stated that homosexuals have a lower life expectancy. The research shows this to be wrong. You have claimed the existence of studies and government research confirming that homosexuals have a lower life expectancy - I've asked for references but have received only silence on this

African Americans actaully do have shorter life expediencies and are more prone to many chronic diseases. should everyone should oppose the encouragement of behavior that is negative to society?

you actually are.


And again you are incorrect. Discrimination and obesity are intrinsically linked.
Shelton R.C., Puleo, E. Bennett, G.G. et al The Association Between Racial and Gender Discrimination and Body Mass Index. Natl Institute of Health

Valanis B, Bowen DJ, Bassford T, Whitlock E, Charney P, Carter RA. 2009 Sexual orientation and health: Comparison in the Women’s Health Initiative samples. Archives of Family Medicine

Diamant AL, Wold C. 2003 Sexual orientation and discrimination in physical and mental health status among women. Journal of Women's Health

Wright J, Harwood V. Biopolitics and the Obesity Epidemic 2008: Taylor & Francis

Muennig P. 2008 The body politic: the relationship between stigma and obesity-associated disease. J. of Public Health

Gough B, Flanders G. 2009 Obese bodies: gay bears talk about weight, body image and health. J. of Men's Health Fall

Actually I repeated what several studies have claimed, including a lower life expectancy. Your non-rebuttal was that someone sometime said gay men averaged 42 years old therefore it can't be true there is a disparity in health with the LGBT community.

CDC and all the government websites on the issue say the same thing, there is a disparity in health.
The weight issues I brought up were the ones in the LGBT community contributing to the disparity in health and specifically caused by some with that group being overly focused on appearance. If you want to twist that into the community being racists and discriminating against themselves, be my guest. Rather an odd tack for you to take.

BTW I am intentionally selecting LGBT friendly sites, which clearly want to paint most if not all the disparity as a function of negative social pressure from outside the community. Clearly I do not agree that explains all of the disparity. The weight related issues being a good example as being driven by LGBT attitudes about themselves, nothing to do with external society pressures.

American College of Pediatricians projecthttp://factsaboutyouth.com/posts/homosexuality/
Facts About Youth – Homosexuality
"The current media portrayal of gay and lesbian relationships is that they are as healthy, stable and loving as heterosexual marriages — or even more so.1 Medical associations are promoting somewhat similar messages.2 Sexual relationships between members of the same sex, however, expose gays, lesbians and bisexuals to extreme risks of Sexually Transmitted Diseases (STDs), physical injuries, mental disorders and even a shortened life span."

Lets hear from a University dedicated to improve LGBT health:
Large-Scale Study Finds Higher Rates of Severe Psychological Distress and Impaired Physical Health among LGBT Populations
Large-Scale Study Finds Higher Rates of Severe Psychological Distress and Impaired Physical Health among LGBT Populations

CDC showing the disparity in health, same disparity all other studies show including smoking, which by itself would produce a lower life expectancy. The CDC also would not need a project that has as a goal improving LGBT health absent the need created by the disparity.(Healthy People 2020)
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr077.pdf

health/well being disparity
LGBT Americans Report Lower Well-Being