change

[thesunisout]

How has the AG church changed for the worst since the former days in the early 1900s? It's clear that we need another revival but I think it would be good to understand what we are missing so we don't blindly accept the status quo.

 

[Alithis]

you guys confuse me with your abbreviations lol

the AG the AOG the AoG

for me (having grown up mostly in Assembly of God circles) in some instances they " traditionalised " the manifestations of the Holy Spirit - which, imo ,had the effect of hindering his work in peoples lives .
it -in some cases- had the effect that if ones experience did not meet a certain criteria that person may feel their experience is invalid .
but traditionalism always has this effect on any denomination . the test comes when a congregation is tested as to whether they submit afresh to the will of the Holy Spirit or resist him to maintain their tradition... the latter will grieve the Holy Spirit and while he will ,in love ,wrestle with us -if we continue to resist .he will not reside among us like the dove which descended to the lord Jesus and "remained" there .

 

[Bob Carabbio]

And in fact the AoG MISSED COMPLETELY the Charismatic outpouring in 1966 - based primarily on the observation that they weren't "Clothesline Holy" the way the AoG in it's Legalistic Holiness days was.

WORSE YET - (shudder) Catholics were involved in the Charismatic meetings, and appeared to be acceptable to God (without our permission!!) and to the Holy Spirit WHEN WE ALL KNEW THEY WERE THE ANTICHRIST!!!! Except, of course that God was Moving in the Catholic churches all over our area getting folks saved and baptised in the Holy Spirit.

However AFTER the Charismatic outpouring ended in the late '70s, MANY Charismatics (who, for the most part, didn't "Denominationalize" the way the Pentecostals had in the early 20th century) flowed into the "Historic Pentecostal" denominations, and had the effect of "De-Legalizing" 'em, so that today there's not much difference between the average AoG, and the average Charismatic church at all.

In MOST of the AoG Churches in Dallas, however, you could easily mistake 'em for Baptist Churches that forgot to change their sign. As Tom Trask said some years back - "if the TREND in the AoG continues, within 10 years we will be "Pentecostal in NAME ONLY".

In our area the "Trend continued".

Whether or not that constituted a "Change for the Worse" or a great improvement over our OLD Legalism is the question. In MY OPINION it's probably a change for the better. LOSING "Legalism" is always a positive move.

 

[Biblicist]

And in fact the AoG MISSED COMPLETELY the Charismatic outpouring in 1966 - based primarily on the observation that they weren't "Clothesline Holy" the way the AoG in it's Legalistic Holiness days was.

Here in Australia, the charismatic renewal was probably the only reason that they survived as they were pretty much dead in the water by the 60's. When you listen to some of their old-time leaders we could well ask if they knew that the charismatic renewal even existed.

 

[mixster6743]

I left the Assemblies of God long time ago. I wont go to another Charismatic church or watch them on tv for I have seen and heard many weird things in their services, especially the flag waving dancing bunch. I have heard the AOG have become smitten with the teachings of the purpose driven life of Rick Warren
, which turned me off from the get go. I left the COG because of their liberal ways in dress etc. I would like to find a church that half way resembles the churches of old as I am a conservative christian. Right now I attend a SBC church and like it very much except for the lattes and soda pop in the sanctuary. I know no one is perfect except Jesus but good grief we could do better than the way the churches are going. Oh well Jesus will snatch his church home soon then we are assured of perfection!!!!

 

[Alithis]

I left the Assemblies of God long time ago. I wont go to another Charismatic church or watch them on tv for I have seen and heard many weird things in their services, especially the flag waving dancing bunch. I have heard the AOG have become smitten with the teachings of the purpose driven life of Rick Warren
, which turned me off from the get go. I left the COG because of their liberal ways in dress etc. I would like to find a church that half way resembles the churches of old as I am a conservative christian. Right now I attend a SBC church and like it very much except for the lattes and soda pop in the sanctuary. I know no one is perfect except Jesus but good grief we could do better than the way the churches are going. Oh well Jesus will snatch his church home soon then we are assured of perfection!!!!

this is very opinion based . -it is in your opinion that the church will be snatched away before the time noted in the bible .
-it is your opinion that dancing and flag waving is somehow weird .. have you observed folks at rock concerts ? you have no problem with their behaviors in worship of their rock stars ?( and it is worship -do not be fooled )
- it is your opinion that the Aog have been "smitten by rick warrens book.."- i read 2 pages then put it down as unnecessary reading .

nothing wrong with all that being your opinion
but we should try not to present our opinion as if they are indisputable facts when they are in truth - only our opinion

 

[Biblicist]

- it is your opinion that the Aog have been "smitten by rick warrens book.."- i read 2 pages then put it down as unnecessary reading.

I certainly cannot speak for the AOG in New Zealand, but I feel that he might be spot-on with regard to the ACC (the old AOG) here in Australia.

 

[Alithis]

I certainly cannot speak for the AOG in New Zealand, but I feel that he might be spot-on with regard to the ACC (the old AOG) here in Australia.

really ? lol are they sort of becoming like the SDA .. basing doctrinal value on a book written my that whats her name white ?

 

[Biblicist]

really ? lol are they sort of becoming like the SDA .. basing doctrinal value on a book written my that whats her name white ?

Yes, Ellen G. White, to bad she was not right!

As time progresses it seems to become harder and harder to employ terms such as Evangelical, classic-Pentecostal, Pentecostal and charismatic as the once well established boundaries seem to move with however the tide may be going on the day.

I mentioned on a few occasions that the AOG no longer exists in Australia as the old AOG changed its name to the Australian Christian Churches (ACC) sometime around 2001. On their website about this time, the incumbent President of the ACC stated, “We are not necessarily a collection of Pentecostal or charismatic churches as we will incorporate any congregation that utilises contemporary worship services”. There you go, if you’ve got the bucks for a decent sound and light show for your Sunday meetings then you can join the club so to speak.

Initially Brian Houston (HIllsong)established the ACC as an umbrella for the Pentecostal denominations/congregations and from recollection it seems that most joined this group. After about a year or so there was a major bust-up, so the only congregations (to my knowledge) who remained were the AOG congregations. The ACC still keeps its Government accreditation under the old AOG name but that is about it. I’m not really sure that the ACC can be deemed to be a Pentecostal denomination and from what I can tell they have adopted the seeker-sensitive message wholeheartedly.

 

[Alithis]

seeker sensitive message ?

 

[jiminpa]

I mentioned on a few occasions that the AOG no longer exists in Australia as the old AOG changed its name to the Australian Christian Churches (ACC) sometime around 2001. On their website about this time, the incumbent President of the ACC stated, “We are not necessarily a collection of Pentecostal or charismatic churches as we will incorporate any congregation that utilises contemporary worship services”. There you go, if you’ve got the bucks for a decent sound and light show for your Sunday meetings then you can join the club so to speak.

Contemporary worship style could be a guy with an acoustic guitar. That term would distinguish the worship style from three dirges distributed throughout the service.

 

[Biblicist]

Contemporary worship style could be a guy with an acoustic guitar. That term would distinguish the worship style from three dirges distributed throughout the service.

Over the many decades of Pentecostal and charismatic worship, the use of guitars has certainly been commonplace but in most part guitars and even the song leader have been there to support the congregation as they are involved in worship.

With the introduction of the seeker-sensitive ethos there has been a major shift away from worship being congregational based to where it has been hijacked to the point where many once vibrant congregations now stand often blank faced watching a comprehensive sound and light show. This is the way that my own congregation went during 2004 where once you would find upwards of 1000 people having their hands raised in heartfelt worship, whereas now, if you stand in the right place in our auditorium you can watch many hundreds simply standing there with a blank face watching the entertainment machine as it roles on. Of course our entertainers on the platform seem blissfully unaware that most of the congregation are merely there as spectators.

I have absolutely no doubt that our very comprehensive sound and light shows will appear to the less discerning in our (and other) congregations as the constant flashing lights, spinning laser lights, smoke which emanates even during our messages and our three huge HD projectors can produce a very entertaining production. In many ways, congregations such as ours really don’t even need the presence of the Holy Spirit in our meetings as we seemed to have made the Spirit of God to be almost redundant.

 

[Biblicist]

seeker sensitive message ?

I will need to reply sometime later as it is way past my beauty sleep time; but suffice to say, the impact of the seeker-sensitive ethos upon the Pentecostal and charismatic movements over the past 20 years has certainly been counter-productive to the point where it has been one of the means by which so much of these two movements have been derailed.

 

[Clay Vessel]

Seeker Sensitive is: Don't preach anything that will offend anyone! So, you can't preach on sin, because that will make someone feel bad about themselves. Don't preach on Hell, because someone will be hurt about their ultimate destination. Whatever you say, make it light, make it happy, make them feel good! Tickle their ears!! Frankly, I shudder to think what the Lord will say to seeker sensitive preachers when they stand in the Judgment and face the Lord with their failure to point people to the Cross of Christ!

 

[Alithis]

Seeker Sensitive is: Don't preach anything that will offend anyone! So, you can't preach on sin, because that will make someone feel bad about themselves. Don't preach on Hell, because someone will be hurt about their ultimate destination. Whatever you say, make it light, make it happy, make them feel good! Tickle their ears!! Frankly, I shudder to think what the Lord will say to seeker sensitive preachers when they stand in the Judgment and face the Lord with their failure to point people to the Cross of Christ!

for me - i consider it a most unloving act to withhold any part of the truth by which a person can be set free -no mater how uncomfortable it may be.

 

[Clay Vessel]

You've said it straight, Michael! If people don't confront and deal with their sins through the Cross of Christ, there IS no freedom! How can they hear, without a preacher? God have mercy!!