Cetacean Captivity

[SaltwaterHeart]

I believe that this would go under, "Ethics & Morality," except that this topic deals with animals, and not people.

How do you feel about the captivity of cetacean life? Do you believe that whales, dolphins, and porpoises are too intelligent to be preforming in shows like at Sea World? Do you think that some species deserve the title of "non-human person," or do you think that they are just animals?
These are just some questions to help get the thread going, but feel free to add in your stance and opinions.

I have mixed feelings when it comes to cetacean captivity.
On the one hand, I would like to see a lot of the whales and dolphins, located at marine parks, to be rehabilitated and set free. Some of them, such as Tilikum, have been known to show aggression towards their trainers. I think that it would be good to let them go home, to the ocean.
On the other hand, I know that some whales and dolphins have been born into captivity. They are used to a smaller, cleaner environment, with human interaction. They would not be used to the bacteria in the ocean, leading to sickness and death.

I would like for the dolphins and whales, who had previously lived their lives in the ocean, to be rehabilitated, brought back to where they were captured, and set free. I feel this way about Tilikum, especially. As for the whales and dolphins, born into captivity, I would want them to stay there, but under better conditions. Bigger swimming areas, better care by the trainers, and no more shows. These highly intelligent animals have been frequently used for insemination and for entertainment, under anywhere between fair to horrible conditions, and I don't think that it is okay.

 

[Autumnleaf]

If we set them free in the oceans they'd be fish sticks in a year or two. The trawlers run day and night.

 

[Paradoxum]

I do think it makes sense to say that some animals are non-human persons. Dolphins are more mentally advanced than young children, who we'd normally consider to be persons.

I'm not sure if keeping them in captivity is wrong. Is it comparable to forcing people to be slaves, or is it more like looking after children (or severely mentally disabled adults), and in their best interest?

I suppose the problem is that we don't know if dolphins would choose to be free if they understood the pros and cons. Maybe we just have to consider their best interests.

 

[Inkachu]

"Non human persons"? No. Are they God's creation and to be treated with respect and dignity? Yes. I have no problem with places that use rescued animals that cannot be released back into the wild as show animals, as long as they are treated with kindness, care, and respect. I oppose capturing wild animals for entertainment purposes. And I oppose anyone that abuses their animals in any way (harsh training methods, overworking them, etc).

 

[PsychoSarah]

I think that so long as the animals are happy and healthy it is ok.

 

[Autumnleaf]

I think that so long as the animals are happy and healthy it is ok.

How do you know if they are happy or not?

 

[Chany]

How do you know if they are happy or not?

We would need to study their behaviors and their brain patterns. Once we find out which behaviors illustrate happiness that connect and are reinforced by brain states that illustrate happiness, we can find out how happy they are.

 

[Autumnleaf]

We would need to study their behaviors and their brain patterns. Once we find out which behaviors illustrate happiness that connect and are reinforced by brain states that illustrate happiness, we can find out how happy they are.

How would you know it when you saw it? Its the same question. What are you going to study that is going to tell you when they are happy versus sad versus curious versus angry versus horny?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0oWGI8rRZc

 

[Chany]

I've been thinking a lot about animal rights and their comparison to human life recently. In particular, I've been wondering about the boundaries between humans and animals and what the proper boundary setup is. I cannot find any realistic boundary between humans and animals. The only thing I can think of is differentiating based upon the levels of sapience and sentience each creature has. However, this leads to conclusions that are bad, because we would then have to value humans by the same measure. It appears severely mentally-handicapped humans would be of less moral value and worth than regular humans, something that I'm not sure I would want to do.

I agree that some animals may qualify for non-human persons. The intelligence of some animals is staggering.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I've been thinking a lot about animal rights and their comparison to human life recently. In particular, I've been wondering about the boundaries between humans and animals and what the proper boundary setup is. I cannot find any realistic boundary between humans and animals. The only thing I can think of is differentiating based upon the levels of sapience and sentience each creature has. However, this leads to conclusions that are bad, because we would then have to value humans by the same measure. It appears severely mentally-handicapped humans would be of less moral value and worth than regular humans, something that I'm not sure I would want to do.

I agree that some animals may qualify for non-human persons. The intelligence of some animals is staggering.

Chimpanzees consistently beat humans at memory related tests.

 

[JustMeSee]

I have been thinking a great deal about this after watching the movie Black Fish. While the film was heavily biased towards anti-captive orca, it did leave me with the strong concern for captive sea mammals.

It doesn't seem to be as tranquil a life for these animals as it would be in the wild.

It is great to be close and personal with wildlife, but it seems to be at their expense.

 

[Inkachu]

Basing the boundary between "human" and "animal" solely on intelligence is a flawed argument, IMHO. There are more subtle and profound differences that set humans apart. Things like language, culture, technology, civilization, philosophy, religion.

 

[Inkachu]

Chimpanzees consistently beat humans at memory related tests.

Can you cite a reliable source?

 

[Paradoxum]

I've been thinking a lot about animal rights and their comparison to human life recently. In particular, I've been wondering about the boundaries between humans and animals and what the proper boundary setup is. I cannot find any realistic boundary between humans and animals. The only thing I can think of is differentiating based upon the levels of sapience and sentience each creature has. However, this leads to conclusions that are bad, because we would then have to value humans by the same measure. It appears severely mentally-handicapped humans would be of less moral value and worth than regular humans, something that I'm not sure I would want to do.

I agree that some animals may qualify for non-human persons. The intelligence of some animals is staggering.

I'd say that it makes more sense to say that nothing and no one has intrinsic moral value or worth. ie: Human, cows, and rocks all have no inherent value.

If there is no difference between humans and other animals, I don't see why we should avoid admitting this because mentally disabled people exist. I don't see why that would be a problem for them. If they should be treated well, then they should be treated well regardless of our view on other animals.

In my opinion, an important attribute (for the right to life) is self-consciousness. This would mean animals such as dolphins, elephants, and apes would have a right to life too.

 

[Chany]

Basing the boundary between "human" and "animal" solely on intelligence is a flawed argument, IMHO. There are more subtle and profound differences that set humans apart. Things like language, culture, technology, civilization, philosophy, religion.

The first four already exist in the animal kingdom because of social structures found in animals. Ours are just a lot more complex due to our intelligence.

 

[Inkachu]

The first four already exist in the animal kingdom because of social structures found in animals. Ours are just a lot more complex due to our intelligence.

One might argue that these things "exist" in the most base and primitive forms, but again, the vast difference between their forms and ours are just further proof that human beings are set apart - far apart - from all other animal species.

 

[Chany]

One might argue that these things "exist" in the most base and primitive forms, but again, the vast difference between their forms and ours are just further proof that human beings are set apart - far apart - from all other animal species.

But the vast difference of form is caused by the vast difference in the intelligence of the average human compared to the average animal.

My original point stands, at least for language, culture, civilization, and technology; the difference between humans and animals is the intelligence. Our intelligence allows us for more complex variants of natural occurances in the animal kingdom.

 

[Redac]

Chimpanzees consistently beat humans at memory related tests.

Yeah, well, I've never seen a chimpanzee capable of setting up a memory-related test, so hah!

 

[jayem]

I have been thinking a great deal about this after watching the movie Black Fish. While the film was heavily biased towards anti-captive orca, it did leave me with the strong concern for captive sea mammals.

It doesn't seem to be as tranquil a life for these animals as it would be in the wild.

It is great to be close and personal with wildlife, but it seems to be at their expense.

True. It seems that orcas evolved to live in family groups, and swim hundreds of miles hunting for food. Not an environment we can replicate in captivity.

I think the film said that most orcas in sea parks are now born in captivity. So if we keep this up for another 25,000 years or so, we may breed the wild instincts out of them. Just like we've domesticated dogs, chickens, cattle, etc.

 

[apache1]

How do you know if they are happy or not?

Ask Mr. Spock to jump in the whale or dolphin tank and "mind meld" with them. He would even be able to tell you if they are pregnant or not. Thar be whales here! Just one damn minute, admiral.