"Catholic" universties

St Antony

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I have read reports about two supposedly Catholic institutions of higher learning recently, St. Louis University and Marquette, that are deeply troubling.

At St. Louis student who are leftist progressive ideologues demanded that the administration remove a statue of a 19th century bishop converting native Americans because they claimed it endorsed white supremacy (Despite the fact that this bishop was beloved by and a great advocate for the rights of Indians). These students demanded the SLU replace it with a sculpture glorifying the Ferguson, Missouri protesters.

At Marquette, a tenured professor had the audacity to admit to being a conservative and was drummed out of the faculty by his leftist progressive ideologue colleagues.

As a Catholic, I do not know if any church funds or funds accumulated through the collection support these institutions, but if they do this support is deeply offensive to me. If Catholic universities in America don't respect and support the ideas of the church, the church should disassociate itself completely from them. The funds can been spent in many other ways to support Christ's mission.

Catholics in general don't seem willing to aggressively defend the Church and its teachings. I wish more would.
 

Fantine

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In terms of SLU, do you not think that there are students on every campus who make unreasonable demands that are not heeded? Do you blame a university for the beliefs of one or two students?

I followed the news about Ferguson, Missouri pretty closely, since we had lived in St. Louis for nine years and one of our sons still lives there. I listened to commentary from a CLU criminology professor which was clearly sympathetic to the family of Michael Brown and supportive of an indictment.

One of my sons graduated from a high school named after a Jesuit missionary there. I think that St. Louisans realize that the missionaries who traveled with explorers came to minister to the explorers and the Native Americans. Fr. Junipero Serra has been beatified in recognition of the role of missionaries traveling to the New World.

In other words, while I believe that SLU believes in civil rights and racial justice, I also believe the statue will stay.
 
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Root of Jesse

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I think the statue has already been removed, though the administration did not agree to the proposed replacement.

I think the issue is how our kids are being taught by us. If Catholic kids learned about Catholics and what they do (both positive and negative!), they'd learn at least some reverence. Kids are not proactively taught their faith. Catholic parents who send their children to Catholic universities may not even be those who protested. Remember, you can get in, regardless of creed, with the right money.
 
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Root of Jesse

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They both sound like good solid colleges to me.

Hopefully those kids who understand the importance of social justice go on to be priests and bishops.
Really? To remove a statue of a priest praying over two Native Americans? One of the first tenets of social justice is to pray for those in need. Then you feed, clothe, and house them. smh
 
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Root of Jesse

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In terms of SLU, do you not think that there are students on every campus who make unreasonable demands that are not heeded? Do you blame a university for the beliefs of one or two students?

I followed the news about Ferguson, Missouri pretty closely, since we had lived in St. Louis for nine years and one of our sons still lives there. I listened to commentary from a CLU criminology professor which was clearly sympathetic to the family of Michael Brown and supportive of an indictment.

One of my sons graduated from a high school named after a Jesuit missionary there. I think that St. Louisans realize that the missionaries who traveled with explorers came to minister to the explorers and the Native Americans. Fr. Junipero Serra has been beatified in recognition of the role of missionaries traveling to the New World.

In other words, while I believe that SLU believes in civil rights and racial justice, I also believe the statue will stay.

The statue will find it's place in their museum, just an update.
 
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St Antony

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People can teach whatever they want and students can attend any university they want, if they can get in, but many of these universities should not be affiliated with the Roman Catholic Church because much of their liberal arts curriculum is secularist and anti-clerical. Georgetown in D.C. is another that comes to mind. Ava Maria, the new university in Florida, would apparently be a good example of what a Catholic university should be, because the curriculum is supportive of Catholic teachings.
 
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Fish and Bread

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Nazi militant liberal strong-arming is alive and well

I wasn't quite sure where to begin with this one, so I thought I'd break it down into several parts:

1. A phrase like "liberal Nazi" is an oxymoron, meaning two words that are opposites of one another that have inexplicably been used in conjunction. Fascism, including Nazism, was a far-right nationalistic movement that allowed corporations unprecedented power within the government. There is a reason why the allied powers stripped the Bayer company of their trademark for Aspirin after the war and such. A lot of these corporations were complicit in Nazi atrocities at very high levels on both sides (in the corporations and in the Nazi government). Calling someone a "liberal Nazi" is like calling someone a "conservative communist". Doesn't really work.

2. If the implication you are making is that liberals are strong-arming conservatives more than the reverse these days, I do not personally feel that to be the case. Only just recently, we saw a popular priest in the diocese of Newark removed for a tweet where he stood up against the bullying of gays and lesbians (Not even something that Rome is against per say, but apparently considered too close to stuff they are against by a bishop who thinks child abuse is not an offense for which a priest should be removed from ministry). That's a real human being, sticking up for the dignity of other human beings, an ordained priest, who is now without a job and who there is some question about whether he'll be allowed to continue in out the vocation he was called to, educated for, ordained for, and who's earthly job experience all relates to in general.

Bishops and priests who advocate for women in the priesthood are routinely gotten rid of. I remember a priest getting put on sabbatical because he *once* let an Episcopalian priest read the Gospel at a funeral for someone who's family requested it because they had both Roman Catholic and Episcopalian ties and the Episcopalian priest was a friend of the deceased. Oh, and he hired a guy to do some painting who was a former white collar criminal who had done his time and was a member of the parish and who no one else would hire because he had embezzled some funds as an accountant or something many years prior. The priest felt the man deserved a second chance in a role where he wouldn't be handling any money. The priest was put on sabbatical and then sent to a monastery to "reflect" for a while for violating the diocese's hiring policy. Seriously.

I heard him give a great homily when he returned at a different parish in a different role (He had been a pastor of several churches in a community and was then reassigned as a low ranking associate priest in a large parish). He talked about a Church family and how a family is important even when we disagree and welcomed back all the members of the Catholic family members who'd been away and were returning for Christmas. What a wonderful contrast to rigid authoritarian conservative priests who used Christmas of all times as an opportunity to berate people returning to Church for the first time in a long time! He also talked about the human family and the Catholic family and how we are all in it together, and bravely before a rather conservative parish audience at a traditional midnight mass taught on the Catholic social justice teaching that health care is a basic human right. Best homily I've ever heard in a Roman church.

I wonder if that guy is still in the priesthood somewhere. I have a feeling that the Archbishop gave him his walking papers. I thought he was great. Loved dogs.

I have a relative who worked for a very conservative bishop who is very respected by conservatives within the church who actually know him, who was picketed extensively by Randall Terry and his goons because the bishop did not deny communion to pro-choice politicians who were not denied communion by their home parishes. She had trouble getting to and from work because of that guy. Their phones rang off the hook for a weeks or months and they got letters- and let's just say the language from these "Christian" "pro-life" conservatives who were was not very Christian or very respectful of the bishop's office (In the sense of the bishop having an honored position in the church, and in the sense of his physical office building). And the bishop she worked for was not even a liberal or a moderate. Conservatives are getting very intolerant even of their own when they deviate from even the smallest thing.

I mean, how often do Republicans in and outside the Church talk about "Republicans in Name Only" and drive them out of their party for not being conservative enough? Pretty often. The Democratic Presidential primary field may well have two formal Republican officials this time around (Lincoln Chaffee, a former Republican Senator who is the son of another now deceased Republican Senator, and Jim Webb, Naval Secretary under President Reagan). Others have also been driven out as too moderate for the conservative purists after long tenures as Republicans- Arlen Specter had after 30 years as a Republican because he was given no choice by a radicalized Republican primary electorate (I voted for him in the *Democratic* primary for his Senate seat in the next election). In 2008, Charlie Crist was the Republican Governor of Florida with a 70% approval rating and was strongly considered as a Vice-Presidential running mate by John McCain's campaign that year, but at some point he hugged President Obama because I guess they are friends or something, and the conservative attack dogs destroyed him, forcing him to become an independent and eventually a Democrat, basically because he had a Democratic friend who he once hugged on camera. Olympia Snowe, a former Republican Senator from Maine, who was conservative enough that she opposed Obamacare and endorsed Mitt Romney in 2012, though in general a moderate, decided to retire from the Senate because how hyper-partisian the Republican caucus had become (Though she remains a Republican as far as I know). I could go on. Even Susan Collins, a formerly moderate Republican Senator, who stayed in office as Republicans and soldiered on, was forced to start voting for far-right conservative bills consistently to prevent a primary challenge, against her previous principles.

The authoritarians in this country, in and outside the Church, are typically conservative. That doesn't mean all conservatives are authoritarian or that no liberals are. But to see people accuse progressives in general of strong-arming everyone is not in my view fair.

Catholic students at a Catholic college thought a statue was not in keeping with the social justice principles of the Catholic Church and wanted a different statue that they felt was. They might have been right, they might have been wrong, but they weren't strong-arming anyone. They're just students. The administration could have said no. Maybe the administration listened to them and thought they had a point.

There are plenty of ultra-conservative Catholic colleges out there if you want to go to one or send your kids to one. The University of Dallas and Franciscan University in Stuebenville jump to mind. But there are plenty of them. Why can't we have progressive or moderate Catholic universities as well for those students who wish to attend them?

as are all the people (including those in positions of authority) who cower before their self-righteous idiocy

Would you rather take the Kent State approach from the 60s and have police fire on and kill student demonstrators against the Vietnam War? I mean, these kids are standing up for what they believe in in a non-violent way. What's wrong with that? You may disagree with their cause, but it's based on their desire for a more moral world.
 
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St Antony

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I wasn't quite sure where to begin with this one, so I thought I'd break it down into several parts:

1. A phrase like "liberal Nazi" is an oxymoron, meaning two words that are opposites of one another that have inexplicably been used in conjunction. Fascism, including Nazism, was a far-right nationalistic movement that allowed corporations unprecedented power within the government. There is a reason why the allied powers stripped the Bayer company of their trademark for Aspirin after the war and such. A lot of these corporations were complicit in Nazi atrocities at very high levels on both sides (in the corporations and in the Nazi government). Calling someone a "liberal Nazi" is like calling someone a "conservative communist". Doesn't really work.

2. If the implication you are making is that liberals are strong-arming conservatives more than the reverse these days, I do not personally feel that to be the case. Only just recently, we saw a popular priest in the diocese of Newark removed for a tweet where he stood up against the bullying of gays and lesbians (Not even something that Rome is against per say, but apparently considered too close to stuff they are against by a bishop who thinks child abuse is not an offense for which a priest should be removed from ministry). That's a real human being, sticking up for the dignity of other human beings, an ordained priest, who is now without a job and who there is some question about whether he'll be allowed to continue in out the vocation he was called to, educated for, ordained for, and who's earthly job experience all relates to in general.

Bishops and priests who advocate for women in the priesthood are routinely gotten rid of. I remember a priest getting put on sabbatical because he *once* let an Episcopalian priest read the Gospel at a funeral for someone who's family requested it because they had both Roman Catholic and Episcopalian ties and the Episcopalian priest was a friend of the deceased. Oh, and he hired a guy to do some painting who was a former white collar criminal who had done his time and was a member of the parish and who no one else would hire because he had embezzled some funds as an accountant or something many years prior. The priest felt the man deserved a second chance in a role where he wouldn't be handling any money. The priest was put on sabbatical and then sent to a monastery to "reflect" for a while for violating the diocese's hiring policy. Seriously.

I heard him give a great homily when he returned at a different parish in a different role (He had been a pastor of several churches in a community and was then reassigned as a low ranking associate priest in a large parish). He talked about a Church family and how a family is important even when we disagree and welcomed back all the members of the Catholic family members who'd been away and were returning for Christmas. What a wonderful contrast to rigid authoritarian conservative priests who used Christmas of all times as an opportunity to berate people returning to Church for the first time in a long time! He also talked about the human family and the Catholic family and how we are all in it together, and bravely before a rather conservative parish audience at a traditional midnight mass taught on the Catholic social justice teaching that health care is a basic human right. Best homily I've ever heard in a Roman church.

I wonder if that guy is still in the priesthood somewhere. I have a feeling that the Archbishop gave him his walking papers. I thought he was great. Loved dogs.

I have a relative who worked for a very conservative bishop who is very respected by conservatives within the church who actually know him, who was picketed extensively by Randall Terry and his goons because the bishop did not deny communion to pro-choice politicians who were not denied communion by their home parishes. She had trouble getting to and from work because of that guy. Their phones rang off the hook for a weeks or months and they got letters- and let's just say the language from these "Christian" "pro-life" conservatives who were was not very Christian or very respectful of the bishop's office (In the sense of the bishop having an honored position in the church, and in the sense of his physical office building). And the bishop she worked for was not even a liberal or a moderate. Conservatives are getting very intolerant even of their own when they deviate from even the smallest thing.

I mean, how often do Republicans in and outside the Church talk about "Republicans in Name Only" and drive them out of their party for not being conservative enough? Pretty often. The Democratic Presidential primary field may well have two formal Republican officials this time around (Lincoln Chaffee, a former Republican Senator who is the son of another now deceased Republican Senator, and Jim Webb, Naval Secretary under President Reagan). Others have also been driven out as too moderate for the conservative purists after long tenures as Republicans- Arlen Specter had after 30 years as a Republican because he was given no choice by a radicalized Republican primary electorate (I voted for him in the *Democratic* primary for his Senate seat in the next election). In 2008, Charlie Crist was the Republican Governor of Florida with a 70% approval rating and was strongly considered as a Vice-Presidential running mate by John McCain's campaign that year, but at some point he hugged President Obama because I guess they are friends or something, and the conservative attack dogs destroyed him, forcing him to become an independent and eventually a Democrat, basically because he had a Democratic friend who he once hugged on camera. Olympia Snowe, a former Republican Senator from Maine, who was conservative enough that she opposed Obamacare and endorsed Mitt Romney in 2012, though in general a moderate, decided to retire from the Senate because how hyper-partisian the Republican caucus had become (Though she remains a Republican as far as I know). I could go on. Even Susan Collins, a formerly moderate Republican Senator, who stayed in office as Republicans and soldiered on, was forced to start voting for far-right conservative bills consistently to prevent a primary challenge, against her previous principles.

The authoritarians in this country, in and outside the Church, are typically conservative. That doesn't mean all conservatives are authoritarian or that no liberals are. But to see people accuse progressives in general of strong-arming everyone is not in my view fair.

Catholic students at a Catholic college thought a statue was not in keeping with the social justice principles of the Catholic Church and wanted a different statue that they felt was. They might have been right, they might have been wrong, but they weren't strong-arming anyone. They're just students. The administration could have said no. Maybe the administration listened to them and thought they had a point.

There are plenty of ultra-conservative Catholic colleges out there if you want to go to one or send your kids to one. The University of Dallas and Franciscan University in Stuebenville jump to mind. But there are plenty of them. Why can't we have progressive or moderate Catholic universities as well for those students who wish to attend them?



Would you rather take the Kent State approach from the 60s and have police fire on and kill student demonstrators against the Vietnam War? I mean, these kids are standing up for what they believe in in a non-violent way. What's wrong with that? You may disagree with their cause, but it's based on their desire for a more moral world.
So much wrong with this post. First, we have already had the discussion elsewhere about Nazis being "far right" Really, Nazis were for absolute state power and control over everything, anti-Semitic, and believed in the use of force to obtain their goals...all just like the communists, so wouldn't "far left" be just as appropriate?

The Left today is using every means at its disposal to impose their ideology on the country and silence all dissent. Most universities, the media (print and TV), the unions and the mainline Protestant churches have already been taken over by the ideologues of the progressive left. When one media outlet, Fox News, or a few talk radio hosts, dare to espouse a dissenting viewpoint, they are mercilessly attacked and bullied.

Under Obama, the ideologues of the Left have been able to enlist the power of the state against dissenters, including the Church. Just this year, several businesses have been impacted by the gay rights crusade of the progressive left. The reputations and careers of numerous male college students have been affected by false rape claims encouraged by Obama's pro-feminist policies. Fortunately, the courts have taken a dim view of these policies. Look at the lynch mob the leftist ideologues in the media and Obama administration were able to assemble against George Zimmerman and Darren Wilson in Ferguson, Missouri.

You know, perhaps priests should be suspended or dismissed for supporting feminism and female priests, gay marriage, abortion and other leftist policies because these positions violate canon law and Scripture. Personally, I don't understand why a priest who supports left wing, progressive ideology would want to serve in the Catholic Church. Perhaps the United Church of Christ, Methodists or Episcopalians would be a better fit? And yes, elected officials who openly deny and oppose Church teachings and support hardline progressive ideology should be denied communion. If you don't believe in Jesus' teachings, why should you take in Jesus through the Eucharist? It's kind of a fraud if you participate in the Eucharist while rejecting the Church and its teachings.

It comes down to a choice, secularism, socialism, feminism and materialism.....or Jesus. There is no middle ground in this debate, only right and wrong. Remember what Jesus said would have to lukewarm Christians.
 
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mark46

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The US council of bishops should decide which colleges are Catholic colleges. Many colleges in the US have religious roots. That does not make them denominational colleges. Calling BC a Catholic college seems a bit silly to me.

Of course, if the standards suggested here were followed, how many Catholic colleges would there be? I agree that Ava Maria and Steubenville are two.
 
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Fish and Bread

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It comes down to a choice, secularism, socialism, feminism and materialism.....or Jesus. There is no middle ground in this debate, only right and wrong.

You know, that kind of thinking would fit right in with the Taliban or ISIS if you just changed the word Jesus to Allah. Two sides of the same coin. It's ironic that you guys hate each other, because you're more alike than you know. In the end, though, progressive monotheists will beat fundamentalists any day of the week. Few want to live in places controlled by conservative religious extremists of any variety. People want freedom and equality, including for women and for people regardless of what their religious beliefs are or aren't, including the freedom to buy cool stuff sometimes.

I'm totally for choice, feminism, secularism, socialism, and materialism if it's a zero sum game between that and the Catholic Taliban. Being against freedom and equality is anti-American in the most basic of senses- it is contrary to our nation's founding principles.

How about we move all the Christians who are against freedom and equality and feminism and liberalism to the middle east? They can form their own little country and fight some sort of apocalyptic war against their Muslim and Jewish philosophical brethren that they can pretend was foretold in the book of Revelation, and the rest of the world can move forward in to a brighter future.
 
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mark46

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You know, perhaps priests should be suspended or dismissed for supporting feminism and female priests, gay marriage, abortion and other leftist policies because these positions violate canon law and Scripture. Personally, I don't understand why a priest who supports left wing, progressive ideology would want to serve in the Catholic Church. Perhaps the United Church of Christ, Methodists or Episcopalians would be a better fit? And yes, elected officials who openly deny and oppose Church teachings and support hardline progressive ideology should be denied communion. If you don't believe in Jesus' teachings, why should you take in Jesus through the Eucharist? It's kind of a fraud if you participate in the Eucharist while rejecting the Church and its teachings.

It comes down to a choice, secularism, socialism, feminism and materialism.....or Jesus. There is no middle ground in this debate, only right and wrong. Remember what Jesus said would have to lukewarm Christians.

(substitute Muhammed for Jesus)

Am I on a Catholic board or on a Muslim board?

This is kind of talk that most people IRAN would find offensive. Of course, it is the view of some of their clerics.

This kind of talk might me made by any of leaders of ISIS.
 
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mark46

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You know, that kind of thinking would fit right in with the Taliban or ISIS if you just changed the word Jesus to Allah. Two sides of the same coin. In the end, though, progressive monotheists will beat fundamentalists any day of the week. Few want to live in places controlled by conservative religious extremists of any variety. People want freedom and equality, including for women and for people regardless of what their religious beliefs are or aren't, including the freedom to buy cool stuff sometimes.

I'm totally for choice, feminism, secularism, socialism, and materialism if it's a zero sum game between that and the Catholic Taliban. Being against freedom and equality is anti-American in the most basic of senses- it is contrary to our nation's founding principles.

How about we move all the Christians who are against freedom and equality and feminism and liberalism to the middle east? They can form their own little country and find some sort of apocalyptic war against their Muslim and Jewish philosophical brethren and the rest of the world can move forward?

Actually, I think that the Taliban would reject such extremism.
 
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To use a movie line to prove your point is silly.

A book would definitely be better. ;)

There is right and wrong, good and bad.

But not everything falls into those categories. Most human beings are capable of more developed subtle nuanced ethical thinking than that.
 
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