Catholic Belief: The Saints

[anawim]

All prayer is is talking to God right?

The word pray is used is an archaic sense, like in Shakespeare when a character said, "I pray thee, tell me...". It is directing a question, or request. It does not necessarily equate to worship.

In Heb 12:1, the verse says, "Therefore, being surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses...". If you hadn't just read ch. 11, you would have to ask yourself, 'what witnesses?'. The litany of OT faithful in ch 11, surrounded the author of Hebrews as he wrote.

It's like being in a giant Olympic stadium and those in the stands gold medaled in the the same event we are competing in now. The don't just sit there saying, 'ah gee, she fell again. tough luck'. They are jumping up and down, yelling, 'c'mon, you can do it. "Look unto Jesus, the perfector and finisher of our faith".

 

[ProCommunioneFacior]

Why is it that people assume that if we pray to saints we are detracting our focus from God? Did Jesus want us to live solitary lifes with just Him? Or is He glorified by having us work as a family, His family to help and assist each other to know Him? To me, looking at the masterwork that Jesus has done in the saints lifes and praising that work done by the Grace of God glorifies Jesus even more. The Church is a family, don't you think that Jesus wants us to act like a family and depend on one another, are we not suppose to be a communion of saints, all focusing on God whether it be through noticing Jesus in the other person or looking at Him directly?

I am thankful that the Church recognizes the beauty of the family of the Church and how we are communion with one another. By helping each other out we bring each other closer to Christ. Christ works through communion, and I for one can testify to the power that Christ works when I pray in communion with the saints.

 

[artnalex]

Chief117,

If I am to understand you correctly, you seem to be under the misconception that we Catholic believe the Saints to have been perfect on Earth. They weren't. They sinned just like us. But, they also struggled just like us. And, in the end, they made it to heaven.

Since our goal is to also get to heaven, why not think kindly of those who are already there? You don't have to imitate any Saint. Ever. Be yourself.

But just because someone tries to live a life similar to a Saint does not mean that they are "lowering" the bar for themselves. These Sainst were trying to be like Jesus. So the framework is in place.

 

[Miss Shelby]

Jesus is the Head of the Church and His Body. Should He not have our full focus?

No one is saying that we don't. Do not assume that we don't meditate on Jesus tempations, passions sufferings...etc.... You specifically asked us why we venerate saints, and you are getting an explanation.

Am I to believe that there is no one in your life, in your Christian walk, that you have met who is worthy of emulation? Come on, now.

Michelle

 

[InnerPhyre]

1 Corinthians 11:1 "Imitate me as I imitate Christ."

The saints are by definition, imitators of Christ, so when we imitate them, we DO imitate Christ. They serve as wonderful examples for us.

 

[Chief117]

I think you guys are taking me wrong. I'm meaning no harm. I'm just trying to come to an understanding. As I've stated before (though probably in the other thread), I test all things against Scripture.

I can't hide the fact that I'm not Catholic. You were all brought up in the tradition that this is a normal, right thing. As I professed faith in the Christ who died for us all, I was led to believe that this is wrong. In the very least--this is something foreign.

Nonetheless, I test all things against Scripture. We are supposed to do that. I'm really more thinking out loud here in the forums. Sometimes after I post, I think, man, if they don't read that with the correct tone they will think I'm being judgmental, harsh, or even hateful. I assure you that if it sounds like that I did not mean it. If I stepped over a boundary I apologize. Sincerely, in Christ.

Again, all we are doing is this: I'm asking "why" and you're all saying, "why not." I don't know if there is much more here to be said.

Based on what you are saying, I understand that the Body of Christ is not separated between Heaven and Earth. I understand that you ask for their prayers because in their current perfected state, their prayers are powerful and effective. I can understand that line of thinking.

I can even understand that you're all capable of chewing gum and walking at the same time.

But how I feel doesn't necessarily have to be contradictory to your beliefs! All I'm saying is, I would rather have my focus entirely on Christ. If I wanted someone to pray with and for me, I would go to people and ask for prayer. They would lay their hands on me and we would all pray and lift our voices and hands to Jesus. I would also take comfort in the fact that Jesus is mediating and interceding for me, and that the Holy Spirit guides us all in prayer.

If I prayed, I'd rather pray in a closed room. If I'm in public (usually more of a church setting), I'd ask for those present to pray with me. I personally would not ask someone who wasn't there to pray for me (in the sense say of a Saint in Heaven).

It is just my personal view that that is how I keep my focus on the He who is Lord of Lords and Eternal King of my life. If that is my view, it never necessarily says that I disagree with your beliefs. I can't deny though that it does still not quite sit right, but I understand--I see. For all I know, it could be a fine practice. But I'm not going to lose my salvation just because I don't pray to them, so I never would. If my belief is this, should you not make me stumble?

I believe if I sat here and told you that to ask for intercession would be wrong, I believe I would be sinning. If I made you to stumble in such a situation then it would be a sin, based on the teachings of Paul. But likewise, a believer who wishes not to seek the saints should not be "griped at" either, in such ways you make me stumble, and then you are guilty of sin.

 

[jukesk9]

Any friend of God is a friend of mine.

Excellent book BTW...

 

[anawim]

But how I feel doesn't necessarily have to be contradictory to your beliefs! All I'm saying is, I would rather have my focus entirely on Christ. If I wanted someone to pray with and for me, I would go to people and ask for prayer. They would lay their hands on me and we would all pray and lift our voices and hands to Jesus. I would also take comfort in the fact that Jesus is mediating and interceding for me, and that the Holy Spirit guides us all in prayer.

If I prayed, I'd rather pray in a closed room. If I'm in public (usually more of a church setting), I'd ask for those present to pray with me. I personally would not ask someone who wasn't there to pray for me (in the sense say of a Saint in Heaven).

It is just my personal view that that is how I keep my focus on the He who is Lord of Lords and Eternal King of my life. If that is my view, it never necessarily says that I disagree with your beliefs. I can't deny though that it does still not quite sit right, but I understand--I see. For all I know, it could be a fine practice. But I'm not going to lose my salvation just because I don't pray to them, so I never would. If my belief is this, should you not make me stumble?

I believe if I sat here and told you that to ask for intercession would be wrong, I believe I would be sinning. If I made you to stumble in such a situation then it would be a sin, based on the teachings of Paul. But likewise, a believer who wishes not to seek the saints should not be "griped at" either, in such ways you make me stumble, and then you are guilty of sin.

O.K. There no law that says you have to ask someone to pray for you. But know that they do anyway because that's what Scripture says: (Rev 5:8; 8:3-4)

 

[Chief117]

O.K. There no law that says you have to ask someone to pray for you. But know that they do anyway because that's what Scripture says: (Rev 5:8; 8:3-4)

I've long understood these to be saints like you and I, praying from Earth. Is that not right? ...It's been a while since I've read Revelation...

 

[Paul S]

It is just my personal view that that is how I keep my focus on the He who is Lord of Lords and Eternal King of my life. If that is my view, it never necessarily says that I disagree with your beliefs. I can't deny though that it does still not quite sit right, but I understand--I see. For all I know, it could be a fine practice. But I'm not going to lose my salvation just because I don't pray to them, so I never would. If my belief is this, should you not make me stumble?

I believe if I sat here and told you that to ask for intercession would be wrong, I believe I would be sinning. If I made you to stumble in such a situation then it would be a sin, based on the teachings of Paul. But likewise, a believer who wishes not to seek the saints should not be "griped at" either, in such ways you make me stumble, and then you are guilty of sin.

If you were to become Catholic, you would have to accept that it's okay to pray to the saints. However, you would not have to pray to them yourself and would be free to only pray to God.

There's a lot of differences between Protestant and Catholic beliefs, and the intercession of the saints is one of the big ones, so it's understandable that we're not going to change your mind right away.

Perhaps you should look at what the early Christians did and wrote. Although not Scripture, they were the closest in time to Jesus and the Apostles, so they should be doing whatever the Apostles told them to do. In the Roman catacombs, where the early Christians hid and buried their dead during the persecutions, these early Christians wrote prayers to the saints near the graves of the martyrs:

"Vincent, you are in Christ, pray for Phoebe"
"Januaria, pray for us"
"Intercede and pray for your brothers and sisters;"
"Paul and Peter, pray for Victor"
"Paul, Peter, pray for Eratus"

 

[rhyddid_rose]

To Life Immortal

Another excellent thread!

You know, one of the reasons why I became Orthodox was the idea of the saints praying for us in heaven and the idea of having a family and friends with Jesus in heaven. I dont have a close family and probably will never have a family of my own. I am looking forward to meeting the saints and Lord Jesus, but also I'm looking forward to having a real family relationship with others there as well. I want that relationship of being a real sister, a real daughter and a real friend in the afterlife. I don't have any kids, but I like babies. Maybe Jesus will have me working in heaven's nursery. That would be awesome!


Peace and Long Life
~*~ бабочка ~*~

 

[anawim]

I've long understood these to be saints like you and I, praying from Earth. Is that not right? ...It's been a while since I've read Revelation...

The "saints" are made up of both the saint on Earth, and those in heaven. We are all part of the same Body of Christ. There isn't one Body in heaven, and another on Earth. We are just one big happy!

 

[ThereseOfLisieux]

Lets look for a moment at the Mass. The Mass is Divine Liturgy, we come together with each other, but we also come together with all of the angels and saints. We are one big happy family, we not only are with living Christians, but with those who have gone before us. This is a wonderful idea that the Catholic Church believes in. Let's go back again to a question asked in another theread. Why would God allow us to have an un-Christian practice for 1500 years? Even Luther had a devotion to Mary, and believed what the Catholics do about her. (I don't know what he said about the Saints.)

Also, in another thread Chief asked about the similarity to channelling. This is not the same, when someone channels they are being entered by a spirit. It is forbidden, and always has been to "summon the dead" this means trying to make contact (two way) with the dead. A prayer to a saint is just that, a one way request.

Often when people convert (not that you are) the thing that they have the most trouble with is Mary and the Saints. This is not something that is easy for a Protestant to grasp.

In short, we are a part of Christ's Church, and so are all who have gone to heaven before us.

 

[Chief117]

Often when people convert (not that you are) the thing that they have the most trouble with is Mary and the Saints. This is not something that is easy for a Protestant to grasp.

I didn't really come here to convert, but I did come because of my desire to understand and learn because i want there to unity between the Body of Christ. What bigger apparent "hole" is there than the one between Protestant and Catholic?

And you're right, the biggest problems I have are with Mary, the Papal Authority, and The Saints. I have lots of other small things that I wish were clearer.

I also hate using the word "convert" in referring between us. I believe we are of the same body. Convert from what to what exactly? Its not conversion.

 

[nyj]

You say that you do not pray to them in the sense that you would pray to Jesus.

Indeed. Take a look at a very beginning of a common Catholic prayer... The Litany of Saints.

Lord, have mercy. Lord, have mercy.
Christ, have mercy. Christ, have mercy.
Lord, have mercy. Lord, have mercy.
Christ, hear us. Christ, hear us.
Christ, graciously hear us. Christ, graciously hear us.

God, our heavenly Father, have mercy on us.
God, the Son, Redeemer of the world, have mercy on us.
God the Holy Spirit, have mercy on us.
Holy Trinity, one God, have mercy on us.

Holy Mary, pray for us.
Holy Mother of God, pray for us.
Holy Virgin of virgins, pray for us.
Saint Michael, pray for us.
Saint Gabriel, pray for us.
Saint Raphael, pray for us.
All you holy angels and archangels, pray for us.
All you holy orders of blessed spirits, pray for us.

Saint John the Baptist, pray for us.
Saint Joseph, pray for us.
All you holy patriarchs and prophets, pray for us.
​

Notice who we're asking for mercy from, and who we're simply asking additional prayers from.

 

[Franknj]

I like this answer:

In the Nicene Creed that we pray together at Mass, we say that we believe in the “communion of saints.” This phrase refers to all of the members of the Body of Christ—the entire Church—and the relationship of profound union that exists among them. Through baptism and the life of faith, all the members of the Body of Christ are invited into an individual relationship with Jesus Christ, the Head. It is this connection to him that brings the members of the Body of Christ into intimate relationship with one another. Death changes this relationship, but does not destroy it. Thus, both the living and the dead are part of the communion of saints and are in relationship with one another through Christ. This relationship allows us to pray for the saints in purgatory, that they may receive eternal life. This relationship also allows us to ask those who we know to be in heaven, Saints with an uppercase “S”, to pray for us and intercede on our behalf. Praying to a Saint is similar to asking for a friend’s prayers when we are experiencing some need. Saints are friends—praying for us in heaven!

 

[JJM]

I'm goona try and explain this the best I can. Let’s say I see my friend struggling with sin. Now all of our prayers go through Jesus to the Father. So I pray to Jesus and say Jesus My friend is struggling with this specific sin and needs help please send your grace upon him so he may have the strength to over come this. So this is one prayer to God from a sinner. And then I ask Saint Augustine to pray for my friend because chances are Saint Augustine had a problem with this to (he had a problem with almost every sin imaginable). Then I have 2 prayers through Jesus to the Father 2 is better than one. And the 2nd prayer is better than the first. So even if the 2nd one was the only one said it would help more than if the 1st was the only said but I'd digress. Now let’s say I turn to St. Monica because she spent her whole life praying for sinners. Now I have 3 prayers 3 is better than 1. Would you not agree? And the prayers of those two are more powerful than if I asked my neighbors Tom and Martha to pray for my friend. However let’s say I ask them too. Well Now I have five prayers 5 is better than 3 which is better than one. You see how this works. The more prayer the more powerful. I'd rather have 5 prayers for my friend than 1 or 3 assuming I only ask those on earth. Also it is ok not to pray to saints but it isn’t ok to think that praying to them is bad. Just like it is ok for a vegetarian to be uncomfortable eating meat but not ok for them to say that eating meat is wrong.

 

[ps139]

All I'm saying is, I would rather have my focus entirely on Christ. If I wanted someone to pray with and for me, I would go to people and ask for prayer. They would lay their hands on me and we would all pray and lift our voices and hands to Jesus. I would also take comfort in the fact that Jesus is mediating and interceding for me, and that the Holy Spirit guides us all in prayer.

Chief, what you describe here is what we believe about praying to saints. In our minds, there is not so much a difference between asking our friends on earth to pray to God for us, and asking the saints in heaven to pray to God for us.

If that makes sense to you, you may then ask, "well how can the saints in heaven hear our prayers?"

I saw your signature, it is a beautiful verse. Luke 15:7

"...there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninetynine righteous persons who do not need to repent."

Its obvious that the "rejoicing" is done by God, and others in heaven. I ask, how do the saints who are rejoicing about a repentant sinner, how do they know the sinner repented?