Can you be Christian and believe in evolution?

Job 33:6

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Of course the bible would of needed a 1,000 more chapters. Scripture is for all generations including modern times. Man can read more into it now because man knows more today.
Part of the issue with your hermeneutic is that there are no checks and balances on your interpretation. You aren't relying on the text because the text never mentions DNA. You're falling back on information from outside of the text. And as your understanding of things like science change, so too does your understanding of the text.

But the Bible isn't some maliable thing that changes definition and meaning every century as science advances.

And as we've noted before, the audience also wouldn't have known about DNA either.

Imagine the idea that the ancient isrealites never actually understood what the psalmist was describing. They lived and died never actually having awareness that the psalmist was "actually" talking about DNA, and that the truth that the psalmist was speaking was "hidden" in his words. So hidden that the psalmist himself didn't even know what he was talking about.

All the ancient isrealites lived and died never knowing that they were describing DNA. They lived and died never understanding the very Bible that they wrote, that originated in their own context.

Meanwhile people like Richard Dawkins, who have knowledge of DNA, would therefore have a better understanding of the Bible then the original Israelite audience and authors of the Bible, themselves, because ancient people didn't know about DNA but Richard Dawkins does.
 
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BeyondET

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Part of the issue with your hermeneutic is that there are no checks and balances on your interpretation. You aren't relying on the text because the text never mentions DNA. You're falling back on information from outside of the text. And as your understanding of things like science change, so too does your understanding of the text.

But the Bible isn't some maliable thing that changes definition and meaning every century as science advances.

And as we've noted before, the audience also wouldn't have known about DNA either.

Imagine the idea that the ancient isrealites never actually understood what the psalmist was describing. They lived and died never actually having awareness that the psalmist was "actually" talking about DNA, and that the truth that the psalmist was speaking was "hidden" in his words. So hidden that the psalmist himself didn't even know what he was talking about.

All the ancient isrealites lived and died never knowing that they were describing DNA. They lived and died never understanding the very Bible that they wrote, that originated in their own context.

Meanwhile people like Richard Dawkins, who have knowledge of DNA, would therefore have a better understanding of the Bible then the original Israelite audience and authors of the Bible, themselves, because ancient people didn't know about DNA but Richard Dawkins does.
The issue I see with your hermeneutics is you think the bible is written so no one can ever know what the ancient Israelites didn't know. I haven't looked up the name yet but I don't know the man. And he has nothing to do with the conversation.

They didn't have to know about DNA to know what it meant to them at that time. They knew and saw bones,tendons,hearts,lungs,brains all the organs they knew of and not everyone of those was written in scripture.

That verse means alot more to today's people than yesterday's.
 
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BeyondET

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It wouldn't take 1000 chapters to mention rings around Saturn. Most people can mention such things in a single sentence.
Now i know you are just playing a game of twister, thanks for informing me.
 
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sfs

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You cut off part of my post where I said it covers everything in the womb.

Then you ask me a question why it isn't everything. Are playing a game here or what?
Your original comments on this subject seemed to suggest that you thought the verse referred to DNA in a particular way. Is that not what you meant?
 
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The Barbarian

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That verse means alot more to today's people than yesterday's.
Seems unlikely. That would suggest that God didn't do a very good job of explaining things to ancient believers.
 
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BeyondET

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Seems unlikely. That would suggest that God didn't do a very good job of explaining things to ancient believers.
Can you teach an infant about nuclear fusion no, it's the same thing with people long ago. It's worded for all generations to understand within their knowledge.

Dirt to man wasn't wiped up in minutes. That's evolution today man is an extension of everything that constitutes dirt.
 
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BeyondET

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Your original comments on this subject seemed to suggest that you thought the verse referred to DNA in a particular way. Is that not what you meant?
I don't believe that all, you read what wrote then preceded to cut off my statement about everything in womb then ask basically the opposite of what i said and I think you did it for reason.
 
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The Barbarian

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Can you teach an infant about nuclear fusion no, it's the same thing with people long ago. It's worded for all generations to understand within their knowledge.
Ancient man didn't know many things we know now. But humans in Biblical times were not noticably less intelligent than we are.
Dirt to man wasn't wiped up in minutes. That's evolution today man is an extension of everything that constitutes dirt.
I think you could be a little more clear here. What does that mean?
 
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BeyondET

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Ancient man didn't know many things we know now. But humans in Biblical times were not noticably less intelligent than we are.

I think you could be a little more clear here. What does that mean?
Yes humans in biblical time had IQ levels just like people today but they didn't have the intelligents to build and construct a space station.

What do I mean?, you'll have to increase your knowledge/intelligents about how dirt is made on earth first to understand what I meant.
 
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The Barbarian

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Yes humans in biblical time had IQ levels just like people today but they didn't have the intelligents to build and construct a space station.
Lacked knowledge, not intelligence. There is some evidence that modern humans are significantly more intelligent than people a generation or two ago, due to environmental factors, but that seems to be a product of technology. Turns out that environment determines IQ about as much as heredity does.

This "Flynn Effect" seems to relate to greater communication in recent times, and the effect appears to be slowing down or stopping entirely, as though we've gotten the maximum effect from whatever it is that's causing it.

I doubt if you'd find a Hebrew from Moses time to be much dumber than the average person today.
 
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Job 33:6

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The issue I see with your hermeneutics is you think the bible is written so no one can ever know what the ancient Israelites didn't know. I haven't looked up the name yet but I don't know the man. And he has nothing to do with the conversation.

They didn't have to know about DNA to know what it meant to them at that time. They knew and saw bones,tendons,hearts,lungs,brains all the organs they knew of and not everyone of those was written in scripture.

That verse means alot more to today's people than yesterday's.
The Bible doesn't change meaning over time. If the original authors and audience understood it to mean something when they wrote it, a century later the Bible will not change meaning into something else that the original author and audience wasn't aware of.

Otherwise the Bible would have a practically infinite number of valid interpretations.
 
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Fervent

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Where you have once again assigned a meaning to a word, in this case 'why', that is very different from how that word is used by native speakers of English. Or rather, you have arbitrarily restricted it to a small part of its semantic range. I'm not sure why you do this but you're certainly not making communication easier.
There's nothing arbitrary in my restriction, because the ordinary usage of the word is sloppy and leads to semantic confusion since people often use "why" when they mean "how" or "what." There's nothing uncommon about restricting the usage of a word to a particular aspect, and nothing arbitrary to restricting "why" to the range that is unique to it rather than areas better covered by other interrogatives.
That is your assertion. I think that assertion is almost wholly in error. I will venture to say that if a plumber changes her answers to theological questions, her understanding of 'air' and 'pipes' will almost never be materially affected. Not how she interacts with air and pipes and not how she thinks about them. If I were to become an atheist tomorrow, my understanding of DNA and of electrons would not change in any meaningful way.
If there's nothing separating your outlook from an atheist on the constitution of reality, I would venture that you possibly haven't given what it means for God to exist enough thought.
Do you have any evidence that the actual views of real scientists about the subjects of their theories vary with their theological beliefs?
 
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Fervent

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That's what a "final cause" is.
Nope, final cause is the purpose or telos of an object. The end to which it is directed.
Maybe we should confine this discussion to things you and I say.
For example, in reading scripture and inserting ideas that aren't therein.
Certainly, but that's a bit irrelevant to our conversation.
It's just a method. Scientists would tell you that. I think one of the reasons that some religious people resent science, is they see it as kind of a magical thing that demeans faith. Not so. One might as well resent plumbing for not relying on faith. Just a method. It works better than anything else humans can do to learn about the physical universe. But that's it. It's not magic.
The issue is, it's not just a method. In principal, it is. But in reality, no method of inquiry can be isolated from the human being who is involved in the process. You seem to be working with an idealized version, where the scientist is entirely removed from the picture or there are no underlying philosophies involved. There is a great deal of philosophy baked into science that goes beyond the method, most of it coming from a materialist perspective. When a physicist says "everything is matter" that's an ontological statement, and one that makes it easy for atheists to beg the question of God's existence. Science isn't some isolated ideal process that is independent from philosophy. And my issue isn't with science, per se, but with the simplistic idealization of science and the philosophies that get dressed up in scientific garb because their presence in the sciences is treated as non-existent.
Most scientists would be amused by that claim, since most of us are theists or (less commonly) deists of some sort.
I'm not sure I buy that most scientists are theists(though I believe I've seen that among academics, only philosophers show a strong atheistic hegemony), though that's somewhat irrelevant to my complaint. My issue is purely about epistemic hierarchy, because if we are both consistent in our approach and begin with science as the cornerstone of our knowledge base there is no way to escape agnosticism, barring direct personal revelation from God. God becomes rather irrelevant to the world, because He operates with a light touch that makes His presence essentially invisible in nature. At least, His presence is invisible to science because when He acts by way of miracles such things are by definition not repeatable and immune to testing. Is all this a weakness of science, in and of itself? No, it's a strength. But if we expect science to do the heavy lifting in what we know about the world, then we'd all be agnostic and LaPlace would win the day. So even if what you say is true and most scientists are theists, failing to acknowledge the philosophy involved in science(though admittedly it is a stripped down philosophy) is simply playing into the hands of antitheists who seek to use science as a cudgel against religion of any kind.
 
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BeyondET

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The Bible doesn't change meaning over time. If the original authors and audience understood it to mean something when they wrote it, a century later the Bible will not change meaning into something else that the original author and audience wasn't aware of.
God is always creating something somewhere

Psalm 102:18
Let this be written for the generation to come, so that a people not yet created may praise the LORD.
Otherwise the Bible would have a practically infinite number of valid interpretations.
Then you render the word of God dead and not active for people today or tomorrow, the word is infinite.

John 21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

Here's another verse about the stem cell factory and DNA, do you know what does that in the verse below?

Its interesting that after the knitting then maturing they divide. Marrow is the womb of a rib creating life.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
 
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The Barbarian

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Nope, final cause is the purpose or telos of an object. The end to which it is directed.
That's God.
The issue is, it's not just a method. In principal, it is.
In principle, plumbing is to deal with pipes and flow through them.

But in reality, no method of inquiry can be isolated from the human being who is involved in the process.
Nevertheless, plumbing and science are possible and commonly done. A plumber might be a theist, but that doesn't affect the way he does plumbing. It might affect how he deals with customers, but not how he deals with pipes.

You seem to be working with an idealized version, where the scientist is entirely removed from the picture or there are no underlying philosophies involved.
For example, one atheistic scientist angrily denounced the big bang theory (he coined the term as a pejorative) because it suggested a beginning of the universe. But it didn't have much affect for anyone else.

"If it can't be perfect, then it isn't valid" is a rather obviously false assumption.

There is a great deal of philosophy baked into science that goes beyond the method, most of it coming from a materialist perspective.
Seems unlikely, since the great founders of scientific disciplines like Copernicus, Newton, Darwin, Einstein, etc were believers in God.

When a physicist says "everything is matter" that's an ontological statement
And one no physicist would say. It's wrong on so many levels.

And my issue isn't with science, per se, but with the simplistic idealization of science and the philosophies that get dressed up in scientific garb because their presence in the sciences is treated as non-existent.
There is a philosophy of science. And biologists at least, were once expected to have some grounding in philosophy. But even if a plumber is a theist, he doesn't have to exorcise the demons of blockage to do his work.

Most scientists would be amused by that claim, since most of us are theists or (less commonly) deists of some sort.

I'm not sure I buy that
Doesn't matter. Notice I said "theists or deists"; many great scientists were deists. Still believers, such as Einstein.

My issue is purely about epistemic hierarchy, because if we are both consistent in our approach and begin with science as the cornerstone of our knowledge base
We would be going beyond what scientists do. What a foolish idea. You might as well make plumbing a cornerstone of your knowledge base.

God becomes rather irrelevant to the world, because He operates with a light touch that makes His presence essentially invisible in nature.
He could have made Himself overtly obvious to all, if he chose to do that. I suppose that He wants each of us to have the freedom to choose Him or not. But He also says this:

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

His presence is invisible to science because when He acts by way of miracles such things are by definition not repeatable and immune to testing. Is all this a weakness of science, in and of itself?
It's a limitation of science. It can only work with the physical universe. The supernatural is beyond it's reach.

So even if what you say is true and most scientists are theists, failing to acknowledge the philosophy involved in science(though admittedly it is a stripped down philosophy) is simply playing into the hands of antitheists who seek to use science as a cudgel against religion of any kind.
Perhaps you should consider the difference between ontological materialism and methodological materialism. The plumber doesn't test for demons of blockage, even if he knows there are demons. That's how it works.
 
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sfs

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There's nothing arbitrary in my restriction, because the ordinary usage of the word is sloppy and leads to semantic confusion since people often use "why" when they mean "how" or "what."
Sorry, but this made me laugh out loud. "Ordinary usage of the word" is what the word means. If you're working in some restricted domain, then a word's semantic range may be more limited, but we're in a public discussion forum here. If you think that everyone else means the wrong thing by the word 'why', that means you don't know how language works.
If there's nothing separating your outlook from an atheist on the constitution of reality, I would venture that you possibly haven't given what it means for God to exist enough thought.
Two comments. First, you have been claiming that one's answers to theological questions affect his or her understanding of things like water and air, or DNA and electrons; that is, that the actual understanding of real people depends on their answers to theological questions. Now, however, you're suggesting instead that their understanding should depend on their theological beliefs. That's a very different claim. You've created a model for how you think people think, and when confronted with evidence that they don't think that way, your response is to blame the people for their failure to conform to your model.

Second, it's not clear what you mean by 'the constitution of reality'. My answers to theological questions affect my understanding of the universe and of human life, but they do not affect in any meaningful way my understanding of DNA or electrons -- or water and air, for that matter. I would venture that you would do well to spend more time asking how scientists think and less time telling them how they do. (And for the record, I've thought about many things, including these issues, quite hard for a very long time.)
 
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Job 33:6

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God is always creating something somewhere

Psalm 102:18
Let this be written for the generation to come, so that a people not yet created may praise the LORD.

Then you render the word of God dead and not active for people today or tomorrow, the word is infinite.

John 21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

Here's another verse about the stem cell factory and DNA, do you know what does that in the verse below?

Its interesting that after the knitting then maturing they divide. Marrow is the womb of a rib creating life.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
Saying that the Bible is for future generations does not mean that the meaning of passages changes through time to fit the understanding of the current day audience.

Hebrews 4:12 doesn't say anything about DNA.
 
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BeyondET

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Saying that the Bible is for future generations does not mean that the meaning of passages changes through time to fit the understanding of the current day audience.

Hebrews 4:12 doesn't say anything about DNA.
You have to believe in your heart, the word is alive and active or you won't hear a thing from any verse.
 
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Job 33:6

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You have to believe in your heart, the word is alive and active or you won't hear a thing from any verse.
The Word can be alive without needing to suit it to my modern day ideas. I can still understand the psalmist, describing the Lords love for us, knitting is together in the womb, there with us from the very beginning before we are even born. Etc.

I can understand this without the text needing to say anything about DNA or modern scientific ideas.

The Word is Holy. It need not be bound in any way to my modern scientific concepts. So if the psalmist didn't know about DNA and didn't mention DNA, it doesn't change anything.

Next thing you know, science makes a mistake and DNA isn't actually knitted together, and then I have to then decide whether or not I was wrong or the psalmist was wrong. It's much easier to just let scripture stand on its own, than to have science drag scripture along wherever science may go.

Science can help inform us of how to interpret scripture. But scripture should not be bound to it in a dependent way. As though scripture itself might change over time to suit science. Oh science made a new discovery, I guess scripture has to be talking about that too now. Oh science updated? I guess scripture has to follow along because how could scripture ever say something different? Oh scientists made a mistake? Well I guess scripture never actually meant to describe that after all. Etc.

Do you see how we wouldn't want to allow science to drag scripture back and forth? The Bible should be independent and static. It shouldn't be on a rollercoaster, submitting to the ebbs and flows of scientific advanced. And if for some reason tomorrow, DNA were found out to not exist by scientists, we wouldn't want to then have to double back and "correct the psalmist".

And easier example would be something like the Big Bang theory. Some people read Genesis 1:1 and think it's talking about the big bang. But what would happen if the big bang were in some sense disproven? Would we then say "well I guess Moses was wrong! Guess I'll become an atheist now!".

You see, we can't have scripture being carried along by the advances of science. Unless you want scripture itself to fail.
 
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BeyondET

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The Word can be alive without needing to suit it to my modern day ideas. I can still understand the psalmist, describing the Lords love for us, knitting is together in the womb, there with us from the very beginning before we are even born. Etc.

I can understand this without the text needing to say anything about DNA or modern scientific ideas.

The Word is Holy. It need not be bound in any way to my modern scientific concepts. So if the psalmist didn't know about DNA and didn't mention DNA, it doesn't change anything.

Next thing you know, science makes a mistake and DNA isn't actually knitted together, and then I have to then decide whether or not I was wrong or the psalmist was wrong. It's much easier to just let scripture stand on its own, than to have science drag scripture along wherever science may go.

Science can help inform us of how to interpret scripture. But scripture should not be bound to it in a dependent way. As though scripture itself might change over time to suit science. Oh science made a new discovery, I guess scripture has to be talking about that too now. Oh science updated? I guess scripture has to follow along because how could scripture ever say something different? Oh scientists made a mistake? Well I guess scripture never actually meant to describe that after all. Etc.

Do you see how we wouldn't want to allow science to drag scripture back and forth? The Bible should be independent and static. It shouldn't be on a rollercoaster, submitting to the ebbs and flows of scientific advanced. And if for some reason tomorrow, DNA were found out to not exist by scientists, we wouldn't want to then have to double back and "correct the psalmist".
You only hear thunder if you think the word can be alive for the word is alive.

Using hypothesis isn't helping your case, if DNA was found not to exist is laughable. You wouldn't exist if that was the case.
 
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