Can you be Christian and believe in evolution?

[olgamc]

And this is why a lot of Christians struggle as YEC too. The narrative just doesn't make sense in a scientific concordant light. It doesn't make sense for YECs, so some become OECs. Then they realize that there aren't millions of years between the days of Genesis, so they just scratch their heads in confusion.

But if we step back and observe that the text was written in a pre-scientific time, then we can avoid all these issues.

‭Genesis 4:22 NIV‬
[22] Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of bronze and iron. Tubal-Cain’s sister was Naamah.

The bronze age or the use of cast iron of the iron age in 200,000BC? That doesn't make any sense. People didn't have horses and cattle and domesticated animals that far back in time.

Or the aging process is wrong. Or there is something we don't understand. It's ok, it will work itself out. Our job is to believe the Word of God and not add or subtract.

Bye Job 33:6, have a good Easter.

 

[Job 33:6]

Notice in my argument I did not say that my Adam is the biblical Adam. I chose the same name because it means "the first human". You can call him George.

I know. But that still has its own issues. Such as, did God create George in chapter 1, walk away and then return 200k years later in chapter 2 to create Adam? Nobody would buy that. As much as I like the idea.

It's similar to day age theory.

And then we would have to figure out scientific explanations for things like the firmament and the waters above, figure out why theres no evidence for a global flood, figure out why other ancient near east texts are thousands of years older than the Bible (rather than the other way around).

A lot of people seem to want that approach. If only other texts copied the Bible or distorted some shared ideas from the Bible. But there are a host of challenges that follow that idea.

Sure, happy Easter!

 

[sfs]

Clearly all beings that are immaterial and eternal, including humans. We are both. Our body is material biological animal. Our soul is something immaterial eternal. Look at the Venn.

Sorry, but humans are not immaterial. You mean that we have an immaterial component. Based on your description so far, I have no idea what this immaterial component is supposed to be, what it does, or why you think it's the same immaterial stuff as God.

No, Adam in the Bible is a specific individual. Adam in my proof is just a person, any person. Any person is eligible for salvation because all people are eligible for salvation.

Right -- every individual person is eligible for salvation. That's what you're actually saying. But you're claiming that a species is eligible for salvation, a claim that seems to be based on nothing in particular.

True, we don't exactly understand what a species is or how to classify people. Biological term is cannot interbreed. But homo sapiens and neanderthals did interbreed, but they are considered a different species.

There's no consensus on whether to treat anatomically modern humans and Neanderthals as separate species or not, precisely because species have fuzzy boundaries, with different degrees of ability to breed. So yes, we really do know what biological species. You have some other concept of 'species' that does not map very well to biological reality and for the existence of which you have provided no evidence.

Exactly. So no individuals outside of the human species have the mental capacity to sin and be saved. But if a particular individual of a human species lacks that mental capacity, it does not disqualify him from being a member of the human species.

Yes, I get that that's your assertion, but it's not a conclusion that follows from your premises.

But if I do that, I will contradict moral and theological values.

Why? Why would an evolved species that is given a supernatural spirit by God contradict any moral or theological value? I simply have no idea of what contradictions you're seeing here. You can postulate that the spirit was given to a single pair of proto-humans and inherited from them by all of their descendants. This is the kind of scenario proposed by William Lane Craig in his recent book on Adam, for example. What's the problem?

 

[olgamc]

Sorry, but humans are not immaterial. You mean that we have an immaterial component. Based on your description so far, I have no idea what this immaterial component is supposed to be, what it does, or why you think it's the same immaterial stuff as God.

I am just referring to a soul. You do believe that we have a soul, right? And that our soul is not material?

Right -- every individual person is eligible for salvation. That's what you're actually saying. But you're claiming that a species is eligible for salvation, a claim that seems to be based on nothing in particular.

Think sets again. Species is a set of individuals. If every member of the set (individual) is a person, and every person is eligible for salvation, then the entire set (species) is eligible for salvation. It’s just math.

There's no consensus on whether to treat anatomically modern humans and Neanderthals as separate species or not, precisely because species have fuzzy boundaries, with different degrees of ability to breed. So yes, we really do know what biological species. You have some other concept of 'species' that does not map very well to biological reality and for the existence of which you have provided no evidence.

Like I explained, God defines “person” differently than science. I am not sure that science even defines a person. For God there doesn’t seem to be a fuzzy boundary. For science there is. Who wins?

Yes, I get that that's your assertion, but it's not a conclusion that follows from your premises.

No, it follows from science. Modern humans (homo sapiens) are the only species known so far to have the kind of executive functioning that allows them to understand or conceptualize right and wrong, eternity, sin, repentance, paying of debt, and salvation. And like I said, my proof is based on what we know right now, and we don’t know everything.

Why? Why would an evolved species that is given a supernatural spirit by God contradict any moral or theological value? I simply have no idea of what contradictions you're seeing here. You can postulate that the spirit was given to a single pair of proto-humans and inherited from them by all of their descendants. This is the kind of scenario proposed by William Lane Craig in his recent book on Adam, for example. What's the problem?

Sure. I havent read his book, but I considered a similar idea. What if a very advanced member of a homo species gave birth to a genius boy and girl who have a brain capable of understanding all of the concepts I listed above. So is Adam’s mom a person or an animal? I am sure you see the moral issue here? Calling your mom an animal just because she is not as smart as you? I mean, personally I would rather believe that Adam did not have a mom than deal with that moral implication.

 

[olgamc]

I know. But that still has its own issues. Such as, did God create George in chapter 1, walk away and then return 200k years later in chapter 2 to create Adam? Nobody would buy that. As much as I like the idea.

Right. I do believe that George and Adam are the same person. But you don’t, and that’s ok. You can call him George.

It's similar to day age theory.

And then we would have to figure out scientific explanations for things like the firmament and the waters above, figure out why theres no evidence for a global flood, figure out why other ancient near east texts are thousands of years older than the Bible (rather than the other way around).

Sure. We humans have a lot of figuring out to do. That’s ok, we don’t know everything. I do have a theory about the ne cosmology model of the world though. It’s a holistic theory as well. Why other writings are older - why is that a question? Because somebody wrote it before Moses? I mean, which came first, creation or ne cosmology? Who borrowed concepts from whom?

A lot of people seem to want that approach. If only other texts copied the Bible or distorted some shared ideas from the Bible. But there are a host of challenges that follow that idea.

Not from the Bible. From creation. Known to humans from the beginning and passed from generation to generation. Moses is just setting the record straight. You noticed it yourself. In ancient culture only royalty was made in God’s image. Moses says no, all of mankind is made in God’s image.

Sure, happy Easter!

 

[Job 33:6]

Right. I do believe that George and Adam are the same person. But you don’t, and that’s ok. You can call him George.

Well that takes us right back to my last post. How in the world did Jubal have cast metal and iron tools in 200,000BC? And domesticated animals such as camels? And agriculture? Etc.

That doesn't sound strange to you?

Sure. We humans have a lot of figuring out to do. That’s ok, we don’t know everything. I do have a theory about the ne cosmology model of the world though. It’s a holistic theory as well. Why other writings are older - why is that a question? Because somebody wrote it before Moses? I mean, which came first, creation or ne cosmology? Who borrowed concepts from whom?

Yes. And in this case, the evidence indicates that the Biblical authors used pre existing ANE information. Hence why God slays a sea dragon at the creation of the universe: Psalm 74:14-17.

Not from the Bible. From creation. Known to humans from the beginning and passed from generation to generation. Moses is just setting the record straight. You noticed it yourself. In ancient culture only royalty was made in God’s image. Moses says no, all of mankind is made in God’s image.

Sure. That doesn't mean that the scientific or historical details came first. You can correct someone theologically, even if they had an ANE understanding of the Imago Dei beforehand.

Like with Psalm 74:14, Yahwey defeated leviathan, not Baal or Marduk. That's a correction, theologically. But at the same time, we don't view God slaying a multi-headed fire breathing sea dragon, at the creation of the cosmos, as being a scientific or historical reality.

 

[olgamc]

Well that takes us right back to my last post. How in the world did Jubal have cast metal and iron tools in 200,000BC? And domesticated animals such as camels? And agriculture? Etc.

That doesn't sound strange to you?

No, not strange. Just tells me that there is something we don’t understand yet.

Do you think that tasting good aged wine while knowing that it is no more than 5 minutes old and was never grape juice to begin with would be strange? For someone who doesn’t believe in God Almighty - sure. But not for us.

Yes. And in this case, the evidence indicates that the Biblical authors used pre existing ANE information. Hence why God slays a sea dragon at the creation of the universe: Psalm 74:14-17.

As well as in revelation. Don’t you agree that the dragon gets defeated? And that he was defeated and will be defeated? Just like you were saved, you will be saved, and you are being saved. I don’t understand what point you are making.

Sure. That doesn't mean that the scientific or historical details came first. You can correct someone theologically, even if they had an ANE understanding of the Imago Dei beforehand.

Right. So creation happens. Story gets told and retold. Eventually gets written. Evolves into ne cosmology. Then God tells Moses the original story. Moses writes it down. How is that a problem?

Like with Psalm 74:14, Yahwey defeated leviathan, not Baal or Marduk. That's a correction, theologically. But at the same time, we don't view God slaying a multi-headed fire breathing sea dragon, at the creation of the cosmos, as being a scientific or historical reality.

Of course not, but it is a spiritual reality, is it not? So I guess your point is why do we look at psalms more figuratively and at genesis more literally? What I have been saying all along - because they are different books with a different reason for writing. Genesis is history, with elements of poetry and figurative language . Psalms is worship poetry with a bit of prophecy. Genesis also includes worship and poetry and prophecy, but its main purpose is history. While the main purpose for psalms is worship. And the main purpose for Daniel is prophecy. Ruth - history. Gospels - history. Acts - history. Revelation- prophecy. Letters to the churches - addressing theological and lifestyle questions for Christians. See what I am saying?

 

[olgamc]

Well that takes us right back to my last post. How in the world did Jubal have cast metal and iron tools in 200,000BC? And domesticated animals such as camels? And agriculture? Etc.

That doesn't sound strange to you?

Also, where are you getting your dates? Metal age dates back to about 3,500 BC. Agriculture started about 9,700 BC. First farm animals, including sheep, were domesticated around 9,000 BC.

 

[Job 33:6]

Also, where are you getting your dates? Metal age dates back to about 3,500 BC. Agriculture started about 9,700 BC. First farm animals, including sheep, were domesticated around 9,000 BC.

What I'm saying is, homo sapiens have been around for hundreds of thousands of years. If Adam/George was the first homo sapien, then there wouldn't be agriculture, bronze, or iron tools. Or domesticated animals.

Unless you're a young earth creationist, which of course comes with its own plethora of problems.

 

[Job 33:6]

Of course not, but it is a spiritual reality, is it not? So I guess your point is why do we look at psalms more figuratively and at genesis more literally? What I have been saying all along - because they are different books with a different reason for writing. Genesis is history, with elements of poetry and figurative language . Psalms is worship poetry with a bit of prophecy. Genesis also includes worship and poetry and prophecy, but its main purpose is history. While the main purpose for psalms is worship. And the main purpose for Daniel is prophecy. Ruth - history. Gospels - history. Acts - history. Revelation- prophecy. Letters to the churches - addressing theological and lifestyle questions for Christians. See what I am saying?

The question becomes, if we don't actually think that God slayed a multi headed fire breathing sea dragon at the creation of the universe, Psalm 74:14-17, then why do you think the psalmist said that? You think God revealed that to him?

 

[olgamc]

What I'm saying is, homo sapiens have been around for hundreds of thousands of years. If Adam/George was the first homo sapien, then there wouldn't be agriculture, bronze, or iron tools. Or domesticated animals.

Unless you're a young earth creationist, which of course comes with its own plethora of problems.

…unless you are willing to admit that we don’t know everything yet.

For the purpose of this discussion, you can think that George is 200,000 years old and Adam is about 11,000 years old. I am not prepared to argue that they are the same person.

Here is an interesting article on meta cognitive executive functioning. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/5454555_On_the_evolutionary_orgins_of_executive_functions

It kind of sounds similar to what I am saying. Somehow other homo species had a very similar brain, but only humans developed meta cognitive executive function. And apparently it is linked to advanced language. “In the beginning was the Word”, we are made in God’s image, we are the only species with complex language and ability to conceptualize. Interesting, right?

 

[olgamc]

The question becomes, if we don't actually think that God slayed a multi headed fire breathing sea dragon at the creation of the universe, Psalm 74:14-17, then why do you think the psalmist said that? You think God revealed that to him?

First of all, God did slay the dragon as in God defeated Satan. Second, the psalmist is just communicating poetically that God is all-powerful. He is not writing a literal or historic creation account.

 

[Job 33:6]

First of all, God did slay the dragon as in God defeated Satan. Second, the psalmist is just communicating poetically that God is all-powerful. He is not writing a literal or historic creation account.

The Bible never mentions Satan in Psalm 74. But again, the question is, where did the Psalmist come up with the idea of a multi headed fire breathing sea serpent (slain during the creation of the cosmos)? Do you think God revealed that to him?

 

[Job 33:6]

Right. I do believe that George and Adam are the same person. But you don’t, and that’s ok. You can call him George.

For the purpose of this discussion, you can think that George is 200,000 years old and Adam is about 11,000 years old. I am not prepared to argue that they are the same person.

...

I don't know why you bother resisting so much. I'm practically giving you the answers on a silver platter and you're still just resistant.

 

[olgamc]

The Bible never mentions Satan in Psalm 74. But again, the question is, where did the Psalmist come up with the idea of a multi headed fire breathing sea serpent (slain during the creation of the cosmos)? Do you think God revealed that to him?

Sure it does. Compare genesis 3:15, psalm 74:14, revelation 12, revelation 20:10. But where David gets the dragon, whether it’s a direct revelation from God or a theological knowledge that David has from being a Jew, is not important to the point that David is making - that God is all powerful.

 

[olgamc]

...

I don't know why you bother resisting so much. I'm practically giving you the answers on a silver platter and you're still just resistant.

Because your answer is that Genesis is not God’s word and that science is inerrant. Do you not see how I might not agree with that?

And it does make me wonder, why are you resisting the idea that Adam or George may have been a miracle? Do you not believe in miracles?

 

[Job 33:6]

Sure it does. Compare genesis 3:15, psalm 74:14, revelation 12, revelation 20:10. But where David gets the dragon, whether it’s a direct revelation from God or a theological knowledge that David has from being a Jew, is not important to the point that David is making - that God is all powerful.

You're confusing Satan with leviathan.

‭Psalm 104:26 ESV‬
[26] There go the ships, and Leviathan, which you formed to play in it.

‭Job 41:1, 34 ESV‬
[1] “Can you draw out Leviathan with a fishhook or press down his tongue with a cord?
[34] He sees everything that is high; he is king over all the sons of pride.”

Leviathan also has the name, Rahab.

‭Job 26:12-13 ESV‬
[12] By his power he stilled the sea; by his understanding he shattered Rahab. [13] By his wind the heavens were made fair; his hand pierced the fleeing serpent.

God didn't form Satan to play in the sea.

 

[Job 33:6]

Because your answer is that Genesis is not God’s word and that science is inerrant. Do you not see how I might not agree with that?

And it does make me wonder, why are you resisting the idea that Adam or George may have been a miracle? Do you not believe in miracles?

There's a difference between inerrancy of scripture, and viewing scripture like it's a history or science textbook. Viewing scripture as inerrant does not depend on making it out to be scientifically or historically accurate. At least not in Genesis chapter 1.

 

[Job 33:6]

Sure it does. Compare genesis 3:15, psalm 74:14, revelation 12, revelation 20:10. But where David gets the dragon, whether it’s a direct revelation from God or a theological knowledge that David has from being a Jew, is not important to the point that David is making - that God is all powerful.

So you know, leviathan was a common creature in ANE myths. Before Isreal itself even existed, there were many stories of it.

Usually when people who hear about multi headed fire breathing sea dragons, they're able to recognize that some concepts in the Bible come from earlier myths and aren't necessarily derived from God. Why anyone would credit such a concept to God via revelation is beyond me.

The Bible is not a science textbook, and it's not a history textbook either.

Or you could think about it this way. Did God speak Hebrew? Well God doesn't have a language, He doesn't speak like we do, so why do the Biblical authors write and speak Hebrew? It's in the Bible. Where did they get that language from?

Is the Bible no longer inspired when we realize that it's written in a language that wasn't revealed by God?

Did God reveal the Hebrew language to them before they wrote the Bible? Or are there things in their culture, in their time, in their environment, that they brought into the text to help verbalize what God was inspiring them to write?

 

[olgamc]

So you know, leviathan was a common creature in ANE myths. Before Isreal itself even existed, there were many stories of it.

And where did ane myths come from?

Usually when people who hear about multi headed fire breathing sea dragons, they're able to recognize that some concepts in the Bible come from earlier myths and aren't necessarily derived from God. Why anyone would credit such a concept to God via revelation is beyond me.

Leviathan is a mythical creature from Jewish tradition that represents the enemy of Israel. I have two questions for you.
1. Where do myths come from?
2. Who is the ultimate enemy of God’s people?

The Bible is not a science textbook, and it's not a history textbook either.

Oh? So no history in the Bible? What is the Bible then exactly?

Or you could think about it this way. Did God speak Hebrew? Well God doesn't have a language, He doesn't speak like we do, so why do the Biblical authors write and speak Hebrew? It's in the Bible. Where did they get that language from?

What language did Jesus speak? Who created languages?

Is the Bible no longer inspired when we realize that it's written in a language that wasn't revealed by God?

Did God reveal the Hebrew language to them before they wrote the Bible? Or are there things in their culture, in their time, in their environment, that they brought into the text to help verbalize what God was inspiring them to write?

Like I said, leviathan could have been a direct revelation or it could have been a cultural reference. I don’t know why you are bringing up leviathan. Psalm 74 is not talking about creation. It is talking about the almighty power of God. How does it prove that people evolved?

“He is king over all the sons of pride”. That’s literally Satan.