Can there be morality without God?

[BL2KTN]

At least with an "absolute" standard we can all see how far we've deviated from it.

Well, considering Yahweh sanctions slavery and even abusing slaves, I'd say we've deviated plenty. Thank God.

 

[Section10]

Just another opinion. We've all got one.

 

[BL2KTN]

Just another opinion. We've all got one.

And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money. -- Exodus 21:20-21

Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. -- 1 Peter 2:18

Do you understand what an opinion is?

 

[Section10]

I think so and who says I ought to care about yours?

 

[BL2KTN]

I just figured you cared about the bible.

 

[Section10]

I do, but are you saying your understanding of it is the right one? Or are you just saying "this is how I see it"? If you're saying "this is how I see it" I can respect that. But I have no imperative to share your opinion.

 

[BL2KTN]

I do, but are you saying your understanding of it is the right one? Or are you just saying "this is how I see it"? If you're saying "this is how I see it" I can respect that. But I have no imperative to share your opinion.

How do you see Exodus 21 and 1 Peter 2?

 

[Section10]

I see them how they're written. Slavery was a very different thing back then as opposed to what we think of it now. First Peter, why not? Why make grief for yourself? Christianity wasn't out to change the culture back then. It was hard enough just to be able to survive within it.

 

[BL2KTN]

I see them how they're written. Slavery was a very different thing back then as opposed to what we think of it now.

Are the laws of Yahweh subject to human ideas?

First Peter, why not? Why make grief for yourself? Christianity wasn't out to change the culture back then. It was hard enough just to be able to survive within it.

Do you have any verses in the bible which condemn slavery? All I see are ones that condone it. You'd think the creator of the universe could have gotten that one right.

 

[Section10]

1st question.
Whether they are or not is beside the point since everyone has their own ideas about them.
2nd question.
Without looking them up, I think the Bible prefers folks avoid slavery if they can. But back then slavery was the welfare system. Governments existed only to exploit their people. There were no safety nets, no food stamps. If things got really bad and you had no family to care for you, you died in a ditch. Slavery was a way to avoid that. Just like people should avoid welfare today if they can, but if it gets too bad for you, welfare will at least keep you alive. Most admonitions regarding slavery are toward slave owners who had responsibilities to care for their people. Sure they were property, an investment,
but it beat starving to death and I don't think anywhere else in the world did slave owners recognize nearly as much concern toward their slaves as Israel did. After a period of time slaves were offered their freedom and very often they refused, because they had nothing else going for them in the outside world. Criticize the prevailing culture for that, but it's not necessarily slavery's fault.

 

[ThinkForYourself]

The bible is the word of God that is told from a human perspective.

What does that mean?

Does the bible convey God's word or not?

When you take little snippets or sections of any story or writing and use that on its own and isolated from the rest of the text it is going to be wrongly interpreted or give the wrong impression no matter where its from. Especially if you want to use that snippet to push a certain agenda.

Instead of complaining, please show how God's genocidal acts described in the bible are taken out of context, so that they really aren't genocidal acts.

I'm betting you can't.

 

[BL2KTN]

1st question.
Whether they are or not is beside the point since everyone has their own ideas about them.

I don't know what that means. If people have ideas about stuff, does it suddenly become "beside the point"?

Without looking them up, I think the Bible prefers folks avoid slavery if they can. But back then slavery was the welfare system. Governments existed only to exploit their people. There were no safety nets, no food stamps. If things got really bad and you had no family to care for you, you died in a ditch. Slavery was a way to avoid that. Just like people should avoid welfare today if they can, but if it gets too bad for you, welfare will at least keep you alive. Most admonitions regarding slavery are toward slave owners who had responsibilities to care for their people. Sure they were property, an investment,
but it beat starving to death and I don't think anywhere else in the world did slave owners recognize nearly as much concern toward their slaves as Israel did. After a period of time slaves were offered their freedom and very often they refused, because they had nothing else going for them in the outside world. Criticize the prevailing culture for that, but it's not necessarily slavery's fault.

Do you not think the creator of the cosmos could have suggested caring for the poor rather than enslaving them? Besides that, Yahweh commands the Israelites to kill their enemies and make slaves of them. I'm not sure I want to follow a god that enslaves and commits genocide. Why do you?

 

[ThinkForYourself]

...
Without looking them up, I think the Bible prefers folks avoid slavery if they can. But back then slavery was the welfare system. Governments existed only to exploit their people. There were no safety nets, no food stamps. If things got really bad and you had no family to care for you, you died in a ditch. Slavery was a way to avoid that. Just like people should avoid welfare today if they can, but if it gets too bad for you, welfare will at least keep you alive.

Indeed, that system was for Jews. Apparently you haven't read all of your bible.

if you weren't a Jew, you were property that could be kept forever, that could be passed on in a will, that could be beaten to death.

Most admonitions regarding slavery are toward slave owners who had responsibilities to care for their people. Sure they were property, an investment, but it beat starving to death and I don't think anywhere else in the world did slave owners recognize nearly as much concern toward their slaves as Israel did.

Wrong again.

The bible specifically states that you can beat a slave to death with a rod, so long as they don't die in the first day or two.

After a period of time slaves were offered their freedom and very often they refused, because they had nothing else going for them in the outside world. Criticize the prevailing culture for that, but it's not necessarily slavery's fault.

Wrong again. As I pointed out, that was for Jews only.

Section10, one or more people have sure lied to you about what is in the bible, and what it means. You should really read it for yourself.

 

[SteveB28]

Without looking them up, I think the Bible prefers folks avoid slavery if they can. But back then slavery was the welfare system. Governments existed only to exploit their people. There were no safety nets, no food stamps. If things got really bad and you had no family to care for you, you died in a ditch. Slavery was a way to avoid that. Just like people should avoid welfare today if they can, but if it gets too bad for you, welfare will at least keep you alive. Most admonitions regarding slavery are toward slave owners who had responsibilities to care for their people. Sure they were property, an investment,
but it beat starving to death and I don't think anywhere else in the world did slave owners recognize nearly as much concern toward their slaves as Israel did. After a period of time slaves were offered their freedom and very often they refused, because they had nothing else going for them in the outside world. Criticize the prevailing culture for that, but it's not necessarily slavery's fault.

I think you should "look them up". Because you are telling only one small part of the story.

Yes, Jews who found themselves in financial difficulty could place themselves in bondage for a period of time. I'm not so sure that such an arrangement could be regarded as morally sound, particularly since the slave owner could keep the wife and any children that resulted.

However, your argument says nothing about the enslavement of non-Jews. These slaves were not freed after 7 years - they were property for life. They could be treated as the slave owner saw fit. As has been described, they could be beaten, virtually to death. All that needed to be ensured was that the slave survived "for a day or two" before succumbing to his injuries.

And the part of your argument that relies upon the "prevailing culture" is irrelevant. The morality of the people of that time is not under inspection in the Bible - the morality of the God that authorised all this is.

 

[BL2KTN]

Steve, are you really 86 years old and posting with such intellectual veracity? I'm impressed if so!

 

[SteveB28]

Steve, are you really 86 years old and posting with such intellectual veracity? I'm impressed if so!

Sir, you flatter me! I have a surviving younger sister who will turn 80 in December. I can assure you that her prosaic acumen leaves mine 'in the shade', so to speak. I can also assure you that my own abilities have dulled considerably over the years.

But thank you for the compliment.

 

[SteveB28]

ThinkForYourself, my apologies for essentially parroting your own argument. I had not seen what you had written before replying to our friend.

 

[Section10]

Blue lightning asked me how I saw it and I told him. That's all. What the rest of you people think I couldn't care less. The day atheists do my bible reading for me is the day I might as well burn it. The bible also says: Do not answer a fool according to his folly or you will be like him yourself. Do you really think I expect or intend to change your minds on any of this? Dream on.

 

[SteveB28]

Blue lightning asked me how I saw it and I told him. That's all. What the rest of you people think I couldn't care less. The day atheists do my bible reading for me is the day I might as well burn it. The bible also says: Do not answer a fool according to his folly or you will be like him yourself. Do you really think I expect or intend to change your minds on any of this? Dream on.

Up to this point, we were involved in a civil discussion. Why do you feel it necessary to now launch into personal insult? Do you find it a more satisfactory alternative to a rational debate about slavery and the God that condoned it?

 

[Section10]

For Blue lightning
I mean everyone has their own take on the laws of God and I do think revelation evolves to an extent even if it doesn't contradict itself.
The bible is riddled with admonitions to care for the poor. People just aren't very good at it. Back then nearly everyone was destitute poor. Those who were rich weren't interested in spreading any wealth around. People and governments are much better equipped to care for others today and yet people are still in want.
There are other forces at work in this world besides just forces for good. Everyone serves somebody.