Can Christians be "Demonized"?

[TheRickster]

Again it seems to be demonstrated that there is no scriptural basis for the teaching that a new testement, "born-again" believer has a demon or needs "re-deliverance"...

The "other side of the aisle" can only offer subjective "personal experiance" as proof... Not one scripture... this is critical... too critical... not to be overlooked as a very dangerous doctrine that has been widely accepted by our church family, and taught by some of our best, most respected teachers...

Matt 24:24 "......show great signs and wonders, so as to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Rom 3:4 "... Let God be true and every man a liar..."

There will be many false prophets and miracles working in a false church in the end times... our cry.. our passion should always be to stay true to His word no matter what... to teach our saints to always question "the new thing" by way of scripture...

This has been a long hard quest for me to find the answers to... I am still open to be shown from the word that this can happen... but as far as I have found up till this point... it is not a valid doctrine... christians cannot be demon possesed, or have a demon, however you want to interpret the scriptures definition of it.

It is not taught by any of the Apostles in any of the epistles, nor Acts, and it was not taught by Jesus in any of the Gospels... Deliverance is strictly an evangelistic ministry to set the lost free from the death hold of satan on their lives... so that they can receive "salvation"... wich literally means.. deliverance...

As christians... we repent... and submit to His word...

Luv ya more
Rick

 

[TasManOfGod]

If you ask the question:

"Can a christian have a demon ?"​

and the answer for you come up:

"No"​

Then I ask you the question:

"Should we cast demons out of non believers?"​

and my answer to that is:

"No because that could lead to the person becoming in a worse state than when he started"​

So the next question is:

"If you think that Christians cant have demons and you agree that it is not a good idea to cast them out of unbeleivers then do you believer that deliverence is a defunct ministry?"​

Unfortunately the answer to that by most of the churches today is:

"Yes we have now been excused from doing deliverence ministry because we have proved it is not necessary by the craftiness of our logic"​

Unfortunately the trouble with that is that it doesn't line up with what Jesus said:

"The things that I do you will do also "​

Now consider that casting out demons was about one third of Jesus ministry it is surely a fair hunk of Do's to neglect.
Consider also that He said:

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; ​

I'm for lining up with Jesus so that the people will really know what He did for them and they will be free indeed​

blessing​

Tas​

 

[TheRickster]

Let me presume to define both sides of this argument.

• Those that believe Deliverance is for the Christian after salvation has come…

The argument being from the passage of scripture:

Matt 12:

43. "When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none.
44. "Then he says, `I will return to my house from which I came.' And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order.
45. "Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation.''

Thus saying that if an unsaved person is delivered then the demons will come back seven times worse because his house is empty.... and since we know Jesus wants us to do deliverance (Mark 16) then it has to be for the christian then....

• Those that believe Deliverance is for the Non-Christian on his/her way to salvation…

Our argument being that it comes down to a matter of ownership.

Matt 12:

29. "Or else how can one enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.

1 Cor 6:

19. Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
20. For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.

You have to understand that Jesus wasn’t speaking to Christians here(Matt 12:43-45)… there were none yet… he was speaking to people under the old covenant and telling them the purpose, the need, and the coming of a “New Covenant”!

He was teaching that it isn’t good enough to have a “clean house”… you have to replace the “strong man” in your life. Take a new Lord!! Then once you do that!!!

1 John 4:

4. You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.
13. By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
14. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
15. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
16. And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.
17. Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.
18. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.
19. We love Him because He first loved us.

I probably should put that whole chapter here but to keep this from being to long…

I will break here.. but.. I have plenty more to say about this.

Also, every single person in the bible that was delivered... was a non-christian being converted to a christian!

Love ya more...
Rick

 

[mortsmune]

Enoch son wrote:


e.s. What forum would you recommend and why is this not allowed in this one? You do not have to read anything on this thread unless you want to. I think I am being a thorn in your side but I don’t mean to be. I just want the freedom to express my views just like you do … and let’s face it, you are not always agreed with here either. But I am not asking you to move.

Anyhow, back to the question: Can a Christian be demonized?

Jim
\o/
I agree wholeheartedly with you. Amen.

BTW, if you are interested, there is a forum under the "ministry" section on Deliverance Ministry where there is some very lively discussion going on on this very subject.

God Bless you, Jim B.

 

[Hisgirl]

I've seen many deliverances....some are quiet...sometimes there are manifestations...but the most profound deliverance I've ever seen was a Christian.

This friend had been joy-filled Christian and testifying of Christ everywhere she went, but over time....she began to fall into a snare of fear and a stronghold became her reality.

She became suicidal and wanted to divorce her husband. At the time, she was six months pregnant. On the way to her 'freedom' ministry, she said she wanted to jump out of the car onto the highway.

During the deliverance, a demon began to shriek out of her mouth and she was violently vomiting....BUT...Jesus set her free. It was hard to watch, I'll have to admit. She later testified to having no memory of the actual deliverance. She was a 100% changed person...free from the snare of the devil. The difference was astounding.

 

[hal weeks]

If a Christian can not need deliverance, then there should be evidence of deliverance when someone is born again.
And there would be no need for a deliverance ministry if salvation brought deliverance.
After I was baptized in the Holy Spirit I was shown I needed deliverance from many demons which I did by self deliverance.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Well, this has been a very interesting thread and has been going on for well over a year. It just shows that the subject of demonizing is a stimulating and controversial one!

I learned a lot from reading the posts.
We all have valuable things to say, and when you put them all together, you have a really good study course on the theme.

It does get disappointing when some decide to get personal and attack the person posting something they might disagree with. We all have things we can learn from each other and we can learn if we have the grace and tolerance to read and accept the views of others for what they are.

I believe that there is a difference between possession and oppression/obsession.

I don't believe that Christians can be possessed by demons because the Holy Spirit is already there and the 'house' is full.

But demons can so oppress and obsess people that the symptoms can be very similar to possession. Often it is the demon itself that tells the person they are possessed. and the same lying spirit can tell some ministers that the Christian they are praying for is possessed, when in reality they are oppressed or obsessed.

Ministers cast out demons who are possessing people.
They rebuke and command the demon to leave the person and use the authority of Christ to release the person if they are oppressed or obsessed.
They cannot cast a demon out of an oppressed person because there is no demon in there to be cast out.

But they can use the authority of Christ to release the person from the bondage of the demon.

The outcome of the casting out of a demon is that the person accepts Christ as Saviour.

The outcome of a Christian being released from bondage is a great sense of joy and freedom in the Spirit.

This is my opinion.

 

[Pommy]

I am a christian believer with the holy spirit and demons inside my body, i am diagnoised to be deeply possessed and my twin brother is also possessed and has the holy spirit, because people think that christians cannot be possessed i am not able to get delivered so I want to make it very clear christians can be possessed.

 

[Elijah2]

Let me presume to define both sides of this argument.

• Those that believe Deliverance is for the Christian after salvation has come…

The argument being from the passage of scripture:






Thus saying that if an unsaved person is delivered then the demons will come back seven times worse because his house is empty.... and since we know Jesus wants us to do deliverance (Mark 16) then it has to be for the christian then....

• Those that believe Deliverance is for the Non-Christian on his/her way to salvation…

Our argument being that it comes down to a matter of ownership.






You have to understand that Jesus wasn’t speaking to Christians here(Matt 12:43-45)… there were none yet… he was speaking to people under the old covenant and telling them the purpose, the need, and the coming of a “New Covenant”!

He was teaching that it isn’t good enough to have a “clean house”… you have to replace the “strong man” in your life. Take a new Lord!! Then once you do that!!!



I probably should put that whole chapter here but to keep this from being to long…

I will break here.. but.. I have plenty more to say about this.

Also, every single person in the bible that was delivered... was a non-christian being converted to a christian!

Love ya more...
Rick

Hi Rick,

In my years as a Christian I've only cast demons out of Christians who are "empty, swept, and put it order"!

Be blessed in Jesus' Name.

 

[visionary]

Yeshua told the story of the house swept clean and the demon coming back and finding it empty... The swept clean is the Lord's work.. the demons coming back and dwelling there gives truth to the idea that "christians" can be possessed if they do not have a indweling abiding Holy Spirit like Yeshua.

 

[lismore]

A lot of what passes for 'demonisation' is mental illness. A lot but not all.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

A lot of what passes for 'demonisation' is mental illness. A lot but not all.

Let's not go there. Let's just work from the benefit of the doubt and say demonization bes demonization and mental illness bes mental illness -- since neither type of folk care to be mistaken for the other, and for very good reasons.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Since you all saw fit to do "thread necromancy" ...

OK sincere question then, and hopefully one more USEFUL than endlessly wrangling over who can and cannot get infested/inhabited/whatever:
since in this one's Christian experience the Holy Spirit does NOT simply come, fill you, and stay there, end of story, but actually seems to come and go as He pleases, and does not always come and fill you even when called or invited to, WHAT THEN??? How can you prevent "THEM" taking you over again if HE won't even STAY when you ASK Him to???

P.S. this one believes that the only sin-avoidant walk possible occurs WITH Him (the Holy Spirit) IN residence filling you so please do not say "stop sinning" or "walk sin free" in order to GET Him to fill you because that would be like saying stop having cancer in order to GET healed. It bes backwards and does not work that way -- we need HIM filling & living in/through us to avoid sin, we cannot do that on our own FIRST as a CONDITION of having Him stay with us.

 

[Elijah2]

.

Lost for words M?

Be blessed in Jesus' Name.

 

[Elijah2]

Since you all saw fit to do "thread necromancy" ...

OK sincere question then, and hopefully one more USEFUL than endlessly wrangling over who can and cannot get infested/inhabited/whatever:
since in this one's Christian experience the Holy Spirit does NOT simply come, fill you, and stay there, end of story, but actually seems to come and go as He pleases, and does not always come and fill you even when called or invited to, WHAT THEN??? How can you prevent "THEM" taking you over again if HE won't even STAY when you ASK Him to???

P.S. this one believes that the only sin-avoidant walk possible occurs WITH Him (the Holy Spirit) IN residence filling you so please do not say "stop sinning" or "walk sin free" in order to GET Him to fill you because that would be like saying stop having cancer in order to GET healed. It bes backwards and does not work that way -- we need HIM filling & living in/through us to avoid sin, we cannot do that on our own FIRST as a CONDITION of having Him stay with us.

Well M, then how are you travelling?

Be blessed in Jesus' Name.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

in bondage terrible.

 

[lismore]

Let's not go there. Let's just work from the benefit of the doubt and say demonization bes demonization and mental illness bes mental illness -- since neither type of folk care to be mistaken for the other, and for very good reasons.

I used to help out my aunt and her friend who had a 'deliverance ministry'. I have been involved in chanting over people with mental health issues. There is no benefit of the doubt to extend, just the realisation that many people who go through deliverance sessions are not demonised. In fact I would say that anyone who can go through a standard deliverence session is not demonised.

And when a genuinely demonised person does appear, the deliverance team pee their pants in terror. When Jesus delivered the demoniac in the tombs, that was one scary individual. He lived in the tombs, hooted, cut himself with rocks and could not be held down by chains or strong men. This was not the dude who came to the church meeting and asked for prayer, this was the dude the church would bar their doors to keep out. And its not something you switch on and off like a lightswitch.

A lot of people like to say they are demonised because they like the notoriety or the excuse not to repent, but its the difference between a grass snake and an adder. Grass snakes may look scary, but when you see your first adder, you will ever know the difference.

There ya go, my experience.

God Bless You!

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

I used to help out my aunt and her friend who had a 'deliverance ministry'. I have been involved in chanting over people with mental health issues. There is no benefit of the doubt to extend, just the realisation that many people who go through deliverance sessions are not demonised. In fact I would say that anyone who can go through a standard deliverence session is not demonised.

And it would agree with you here. It has nothing but contempt for these modern three-ring circuses that utterly lack discernment and pander to human spiritual confusion. No argument there whatsoever. (A brief nod to the fact that inhabitation and mental disorders can occur simultaneously, too, just as demons in scripture caused some afflictions physical and neurological to their various victims, but that would be an entirely other conversation.)

And when a genuinely demonised person does appear, the deliverance team pee their pants in terror.

No argument here either ... seen it. Though not necessarily because the genuinely demonised person looks and acts like Frankenstein on crack. Sophisticated forces of darkness know that subtlety goes much farther than fireworks. Drawing people in and then slowly, subtly, quietly turning up the heat and dissolving their hold on sanity and their ability to tell reality from their own imaginations would be much more effective for a goal of destroying them than rushing at them foaming at the mouth causing them to flee and removing any potential for further access to their pliable perceptions and tender little souls. *shrug*

When Jesus delivered the demoniac in the tombs, that was one scary individual. He lived in the tombs, hooted, cut himself with rocks and could not be held down by chains or strong men. This was not the dude who came to the church meeting and asked for prayer, this was the dude the church would bar their doors to keep out. And its not something you switch on and off like a lightswitch.

We have gone around the mulberry bush over this before, lismore. Legion bes not the ONLY example of demonic inhabitation in the scriptures, either. The oracular slave girl in Acts 17 obviously had not completely taken leave of her senses or she would have been of no use to those who made a living profiting off her unique configuratus as a living scrying glass or portal to the akasic. You cannot base an entire analysis of ALL demonization upon ONE case thereof any more than you can do this with physical afflictions such as cancer or diabetes. Some symptoms may be the same across the board but not every person with affliction X will present the precise same symptoms. Bottom line: you don't live inside other people so you have no place to even be aware of what goes on inside them let alone judge or assess the veracity of their experiences.

A lot of people like to say they are demonised because they like the notoriety or the excuse not to repent

Well, Moriah has nothing to do with either them or this blanket judgment. It has nothing to do with Moriah either. So stop trying to pin that tail on this donkey. It does not apply and it will not work.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Now if you really want to be helpful, how about returning to the question raised in post #134 above?

since in this one's Christian experience the Holy Spirit does NOT simply come, fill you, and stay there, end of story, but actually seems to come and go as He pleases, and does not always come and fill you even when called or invited to, WHAT THEN??? How can you prevent "THEM" taking you over again if HE won't even STAY when you ASK Him to???

P.S. this one believes that the only sin-avoidant walk possible occurs WITH Him (the Holy Spirit) IN residence filling you so please do not say "stop sinning" or "walk sin free" in order to GET Him to fill you because that would be like saying stop having cancer in order to GET healed. It bes backwards and does not work that way -- we need HIM filling & living in/through us to avoid sin, we cannot do that on our own FIRST as a CONDITION of having Him stay with us.