JW Can a JW explain this to me?

Cormack

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In fact, 2 Samuel reveals to us that Jesus did not always exist, by using the future tense in its description of not only him, but more importantly his relationship to God the father.

2 Samuel 7:12-14
When your days are over and you rest with your ancestors, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, your own flesh and blood, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his father, and he will be my son.

Wouldn’t that argument only go against the idea of “eternal sonship,” that and not the idea of Christ somehow preexisting. Even Christians like the late Walter Martin denied eternal sonship, but that didn’t interfere with his views about Christ’s preexistence. By that understanding you could easily argue that yes God the Father could “raise up offspring” in the future tense, and begin some form of Father Son relationship, and still believe in the notion of Christ preexisting in some manner.
 
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Cormack

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If all things were created "through" him, then who was the source? Who was the source acting through Jesus?

I’m not convinced that “through” is being used in a sense to say that Christ isn’t the source of creation there in Colossians. For example, in Romans 11:36 the exact same word (δι’) is used of the Father.

For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.
The creation is for and through Jesus (Colossians 1,) but it’s also for and through the Father (Romans 11,) still none of us would want to argue that God the Father was an instrument through whom someone else worked.

Is the idea that there’s an important distinction to be made between creating “through” and created “by” grounded in ancient language, or in modern language? Because if the idea is only valid in modern language, it’s simply an apologetic for some groups and not a greater insight into the text.

It seems to be that δι’ has a lot of tenses by which Christians could teach Jesus was the absolute creator of Colossians chapter one, not just a creator in the instrumental sense.
 
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Freedm

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Wouldn’t that argument only go against the idea of “eternal sonship,” that and not the idea of Christ somehow preexisting. Even Christians like the late Walter Martin denied eternal sonship, but that didn’t interfere with his views about Christ’s preexistence. By that understanding you could easily argue that yes God the Father could “raise up offspring” in the future tense, and begin some form of Father Son relationship, and still believe in the notion of Christ preexisting in some manner.
I guess that depends on what you mean by "pre-existing". The word of God certainly pre-existed.
 
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Cormack

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I guess that depends on what you mean by "pre-existing". The word of God certainly pre-existed.

So the argument from Samuel at best is an argument against the status of the Fathers relationship to His Word, it’s not about the content of His Word or it’s attributes or anything deeper than that.

It’s not an argument against Jesus in essence preexisting as the Word, second person of the Godhead and future Son, Saviour and redeemer of the universe.

It’s only an argument against when Jesus was gifted the status of being the Fathers unique Son. Not in eternity past but at a certain point in time, namely during His baptism.
 
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Freedm

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So the argument from Samuel at best is an argument against the status of the Fathers relationship to His Word, it’s not about the content of His Word or it’s attributes or anything deeper than that.

It’s not an argument against Jesus in essence preexisting as the Word, second person of the Godhead and future Son, Saviour and redeemer of the universe.

It’s only an argument against when Jesus was gifted the status of being the Fathers unique Son. Not in eternity past but at a certain point in time, namely during His baptism.

On the contrary. Samuel tells us that Jesus is David's own flesh and blood, which implies that God did not form a new seed for Mary but literally took the seed of David, which did not exist before David himself existed.

I think the best we can make of it all is that the word, which has always existed, became one with the flesh and blood man who had not always existed. Keep in mind that we too are sons of God, without having pre-existed.

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Otherwise you would have to claim that Jesus is the word only, and not the flesh and blood man at all, but if that were so scripture would not refer to him as "the son of man", and neither would he have actually died because the word can not die, only flesh, but he is the son of man, and he did die, and therefore we must agree that the flesh and blood, which has not always existed, is Jesus.
 
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Cormack

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On the contrary. Samuel tells us that Jesus is David's own flesh and blood, which implies that God did not form a new seed for Mary but literally took the seed of David, which did not exist before David himself existed.

We might say it’s implied, but it’s not explicit and the Bible argues very strongly against that idea. For example, we know that the genealogies trace Christs lineage back before David (Luke 3:23-38,) so the idea that there’s no chance of Jesus existing before Davids seed can’t be defended.

In addition we know Jesus doesn’t have Davids own blood or flesh inside of Him, we have to interpret that in an idiomatic sense every time.

Though the point about preexisting apart from the seed idea would be covered by my writing “in essence,” Spirit. We might write David, Solomon or Christ “died,” but by an orthodox Christian reckoning the most essential thing isn’t someones body but their soul.

King Davids soul doesn’t predate his earthly body, Christs soul or His consciousness does preexist beyond His human body however, that’s according to both Christianity and the Watchtower (either as the Word or in an angelic fashion.)

The “seed” isn’t meant to be used in scripture as a strict biomedical term (e.g. 1 John 3:9,) but rather it’s used to say someone belongs to or is in the lineage of someone else, that might be with regards to the physical seed, but occasionally it’s not.

Even Onans feared his “seed” wouldn’t be his seed so he spills his own seed upon the ground (Genesis 38:9,) it’s simply not a straightforward word.

For another example, if it’s just to do with physical lineage, Mary is in the lineage of David, but there’s no “seed” there for her to pass onto Christ as if it were Onan in Genesis, that’s not possible in classical Jewish thought.

Theseed of the woman” crushes the serpents head in Genesis (Genesis 3:15,) but that’s not related to anything in female biology. Actually the verse is nearer to your idea that God shared a whole other seed with the woman (since female seed makes no physical sense.)

Another example of the legalistic kind, Jesus’ genealogy argues for His lineage through Joseph, and that’s considered valid to the biblical audience, at the same time, everyone reading accepted that Joseph wasn’t the biological father of Jesus.

In the same way writing the Word became flesh isn’t to say that the Word picked up another essential thing so as to change themselves on the level of Spirit, their Spirit remains their own regardless of the physical body or it’s status.

Otherwise you would have to claim that Jesus is the word only, and not the flesh and blood man at all, but if that were so scripture would not refer to him as "the son of man", and neither would he have actually died because the word can not die, only flesh, but he is the son of man, and he did die, and therefore we must agree that the flesh and blood, which has not always existed, is Jesus.

I think this is another example of where the biblical writers distaste for articulating themselves in minute exactness gets whipped up into something of a storm in a teacup, like in the case of creating through versus creating by.

Think of it this way, the biblical writers didn’t really seem to care about making distinctions to do with when sonship occurred, we know this because the Bible authors reference the Son Jesus or the firstborn (implying sonship) but then they proceed to write about things far in advance of His physical birth to Mary (Hebrews 1:8-10.)

In reality what we describe as the essentials of who we later name Jesus clearly preexisted the physical body of Jesus in both historic Christianity and in the views of the Watchtower society. So arguing that Jesus doesn’t preexist because His body didn’t exist or because the seed wasn’t made really isn’t in line with how the biblical writers thought.

The biblical authors thought of Jesus’ existence being long before what we would call His essence appearing as a man, much in the same way as how they predate the Fathers existence while He appears to have manifested Himself in human form somehow (Genesis 18, Genesis 19, Exodus 24:9-10.)

Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of lapis lazuli, as bright blue as the sky.

What’s true of the Son is true of the Father. The Bible writers unabashedly attach titles like “The Son,” firstborn or the name Jesus onto Christ before His appearance as a physical man (Philippians 2:5-6, Hebrews 1:6.)

They write this way regardless of when the body was made or when sonship occurred, or as Jesus casually spoke in the gospel of John (John 17:5.)

Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Lol, since when did firstborn not imply first-created? My firstborn son was the first of my offspring that was created by my wife and I.
And, Firstborn of what? Col. 1:15 says OF (not OVER, that's a translation unique to the NIV and maybe a few others) "all CREATION. Jesus here in Col. 1:15 is a part of the group that follows. It's a Partitive Genitive. Jesus is a part of the group called creation.

Hope this helps Sir

Firstborn in context often means

Firstborn Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary
What is the significance of “firstborn” in the Bible? | Bible.org
Firstborn - Biblical Definition of firstborn in Fausset's Bible Dictionary (Bible History Online)

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence
 
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Cormack

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@Daniel Marsh

I’m not sure if your links cover what I’m about to share, but there’s great symmetry when we start reading at verse 15 and end at 18, the verse you shared.

How to understand that phrase “the firstborn” seems to be defined by Paul in the very next sentence, “for in him all things were created.”

That use of “in him” is a great phrase to study too, theology defining. We see the section capped off by Jesus having that imminent authority over everything.

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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@Daniel Marsh

I’m not sure if your links cover what I’m about to share, but there’s great symmetry when we start reading at verse 15 and end at 18, the verse you shared.

How to understand that phrase “the firstborn” seems to be defined by Paul in the very next sentence, “for in him all things were created.”

That use of “in him” is a great phrase to study too, theology defining. We see the section capped off by Jesus having that imminent authority over everything.

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

I understand "firstborn" in Col 1 as saying Jesus Christ is
Preeminent.

 
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Daniel Marsh

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pre·em·i·nence
/prēˈemənəns/

noun
the fact of surpassing all others; superiority.

supremacy

noun
the state or condition of being superior to all others in authority, power, or status.
"the supremacy of the king"
 
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