Calvinism Refuted

[student ad x]

A post was deleted somewhere.

I didn't do it

 

[Hammster]

I didn't do it

Always look first to the first to proclaim innocence.

 

[student ad x]

Always look first to the first to proclaim innocence.

 

[drstevej]

This is the exact reason why I have not posted in the Soteriology room in quite a while.

People here are so hades bent on defeating Calvinism, that that is all that is discussed/debated anymore.

I don't agree with the Arminian position, but I don't start thread after thread attacking it.

But yet, here, in this area, that is the thing.

Attack, attack, attack.

Calvinism has endured for nearly 500 years. It has stood all those attacks for 5 centuries, and helped to lead countless billions to the Lord. Provided the Lord tarries, it will stand for another 500 years.

When the attacks of Calvinism quit in this area, I might return to posting. I myself, am sick and tried of it.

There is no discussion to find some truth, or common ground. Its nothing more than to attack and prove Calvinism wrong at all costs.

Calvinism has not been defeated.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Well said.

 

[archierieus]

Who said Calvinists would be objectionable to God reaching out to everyone? We aren't inserting our opinions as to what God should do.

If God awakens a desire in men's hearts, and men choose what they desire, then why aren't all men saved?

Because given the same info and same circumstances, people often make quite different choices, depending on what they really want to do.

Could God just increase the desire to a point where man wants God?

God could override the will so that no one makes any choices, but He doesn't.

 

[archierieus]

You state here that the natural man is not interested in the things of God. It fact the Bible tells us we cannot know them and find them foolish.

On a level of accuracy, I was pleased to see on this thread or a similar one, a Calvinist quote the 1 Cor. verse with a translation which reflects the original. It says quite literally that the natural man is not intersted in the things of God. It does not address the issue of hard-wired inability to know, but lack of interest in knowing. Not understanding or appreciating the significance as well, and as you say, finding them foolish.

So what does it take to no longer be a natural man so that you may know God?

More to the point, what does it take to no longer follow the values of the natural man, and WANT to know God? That process would be interesting to explore, and I think I would like to do so, trying to break down and understand how it works.

 

[archierieus]

Is this thread finally resolved?

I for one have discovered that I have significant common ground with at least some of the Calvinists on here. One of the obstacles has been a 'Hatfields and McCoy's approach IMO, another is semantics. There are, still, some areas of difference. I am interested in exploring those.

 

[PETE_]

Originally Posted by archierieus

On a level of accuracy, I was pleased to see on this thread or a similar one, a Calvinist quote the 1 Cor. verse with a translation which reflects the original. It says quite literally that the natural man is not intersted in the things of God. It does not address the issue of hard-wired inability to know, but lack of interest in knowing. Not understanding or appreciating the significance as well, and as you say, finding them foolish.



More to the point, what does it take to no longer follow the values of the natural man, and WANT to know God? That process would be interesting to explore, and I think I would like to do so, trying to break down and understand how it works.
​

The Stony Heart Removed

The Stony Heart Removed

 

[Gazelle]

This is the exact reason why I have not posted in the Soteriology room in quite a while.

People here are so hades bent on defeating Calvinism, that that is all that is discussed/debated anymore.

I don't agree with the Arminian position, but I don't start thread after thread attacking it.

But yet, here, in this area, that is the thing.

Attack, attack, attack.

Calvinism has endured for nearly 500 years. It has stood all those attacks for 5 centuries, and helped to lead countless billions to the Lord. Provided the Lord tarries, it will stand for another 500 years.

When the attacks of Calvinism quit in this area, I might return to posting. I myself, am sick and tried of it.

There is no discussion to find some truth, or common ground. Its nothing more than to attack and prove Calvinism wrong at all costs.

Calvinism has not been defeated.

God Bless

Till all are one.

ATTACK is what I have observed in ALL denomination areas and ya know what is so strange is there are NO denominations in the BIBLE, man came up with hat because they couldn't all agree and love each other the way GOD wants us to with HIS AGAPE LOVE. The Church is called The Way in the Bible and GOD intended HIS people to get along with each other, not lay in wait to attact each other everything somebody disagrees with the others agenda, GOD Don't like ugly and when we have GOD's love in our hearts, the Word says that "Love covers a multitude of sin.

In the scripture quoted below Paul plainly says while we are on earth we will only know in part, but when we meet JESUS we will know all . . . I have quoted from the King James Version first because that is my favorite version and before anybody stones me there are enough versions around so that we may all have our favorite and GOD will not send us to hades . . . The second is quoted from the Amplified Bible which explains in detail the meaning of the Greek and Hebrew . . . The 3rd version is from the Message Bible which speaks in todays vernacular or the way the author says people speak in the 21st century . . .

1 Corinthians 13:12 KJV
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

1 Corinthians 13:12For now we are looking in a mirror that gives only a dim (blurred) reflection [of reality as [e]in a riddle or enigma], but then [when perfection comes] we shall see in reality and face to face! Now I know in part (imperfectly), but then I shall know and understand [f]fully and clearly, even in the same manner as I have been [g]fully and clearly known and understood [[h]by God].

1 Corinthians 13:12We don't yet see things clearly. We're squinting in a fog, peering through a mist. But it won't be long before the weather clears and the sun shines bright! We'll see it all then, see it all as clearly as God sees us, knowing him directly just as he knows us!

If you read your Bible, you will discover that Paul and Barnabus were the cause of the first split in the church because Barnubus wouldn't cowtow to Paul so they went their separate ways . . . they eventually reconciled but IMHO God was not pleased by this . . .

If you do not agree with something somebody says, the best thing to do is send them a PM and explain what you are not agreeing with instead of attacking each other in a thread or making spite reports as has happened many times . . . GOD Is Love and HE expects us to LOVE each other with HIS kind of love, which is NOT a feeling but a decision to obey HIM . . . we can agree to disagree and still be kind and merciful to each other . . . Christians are ALL supposed to be on the same side, which is the side of GOD and not the devil . . . discord comes from the devil and if you look at the first part of the word denom / ination you will see it spells demon so that in and of itself should tell you something . . .

I was brought up Presbyterian which emphasises the doctrines of predestination, the irresistibility of grace, and justification by faith and did you know that not one time the frst 30 years I was in that denomination was there ever an alter call or was there ever a time when anybody was discipled to grow in the faith because it is Predestined who will and who won't be saved, but JESUS plainly said

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Amazing. John Calvin was a mere man, JESUS CHRIST is the SON of GOD so it would make more sense to follow what JESUS says than any mere man . . .

My parents were very wise and they allowed me the opportunity to be exposed to many churches and synagogues so I would have a well rounded insight. I was in the youth choir at First Baptist Church where we won the state championship, my best friend was Jewish and I was allowed to go to Temple on Friday night and celebrate ALL the feast GOD commanded HIS people to celebrate including all the fast. As a side note Constantine was responsible for removing the feast from the early Church and that is why we do not celebrate the feast GOD commanded us to do, another example of a mere man thinking he knows more than GOD. I also had friend who were Episcopal which my parents allowed me to attend and I was the only non Catholic girl the Priest allowed to be in the May Day Event because I had many Catholic friends and attended not only Mass, but also went to confession every Saturday Night . . . he said I was the best non Catholic Catholic . . . lol . . . and I also attended the Lutheran youth fellowship and Luther initiated Protestantism, one of the major movements within Christianity before Calvin . . . so to say the least, I have a good working knowledge of the different beliefs and have found if I spend my time in GOD's WORD and work out my salvation with fear and trembling is time well spent instead of Attacking those who dont believe just like me . . . GOD want us to believe like HE believes, HIS doctrines that are in HIS Word . . .

May the LORD bless you and keep you in HIM at ALL times . . .



Think and PRAY before you post and examine you motives . . . maybe there will be less attacking and more of GOD's love shown as is HIS desire, after all this is a Christian Forum!!!

 

[Hammster]

Because given the same info and same circumstances, people often make quite different choices, depending on what they really want to do.

Then it must not be a very good desire that God is giving them, because men act upon what they desire. Can you name anything that you did that you didn't desire to do?

God could override the will so that no one makes any choices, but He doesn't.

But we aren't talking about overriding the will. I am talking about giving the 'desire' that you mentioned. If there are levels of desire, then God should be able to give everyone a desire for Him.

 

[MamaZ]

I'm thinking of a word that begins with an 'o' ........

obfuscate​

Ovoidance? Ofraid?[/quote]

 

[JDS]

Originally Posted by PETE_

So what does it take to no longer be a natural man so that you may know God?
​

Originally Posted by archierieus

More to the point, what does it take to no longer follow the values of the natural man, and WANT to know God? That process would be interesting to explore, and I think I would like to do so, trying to break down and understand how it works.
​

Another example of not answering a direct question, while appearing to answer it. How many does this make now?

I will answer this question, though you will not receive it.

I cor 2 is the only place in scripture that uses the phrase "natural man". If one is to understand its application, he must begin in the context where it is presented. The context is not just in Chap 2, but is also in chap1 where we are given this information;

1Cor 1: 1 Paul....
1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs (gentiles) and ours (Jews):

1Co 1:4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

What is the grace he is speaking of in this context?

5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.


1Co 1:10 ¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

He wants them to be enriched by Jesus Christ in all utterance, speech, speaking from a knowledge of the divine lest there be private interpretations and divisions because of their speech.

Looky here:

1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

This utterance is not from an understanding of a Christ enriched knowlege.


1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

(Side note) I have needed to get the dictionary out many times when dealing with reformed intellectuals, some of whom are on this board)

Now, he begins to talk about those to whom he has not addressed this epistle, the intellectuals, the wise of the world, those who do not have understanding, those who think the cross is foolish. (Let me remind you who he wrote this to: - ....with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: V 2)

We are told here that the foolishness of God is the preaching of the cross of Jesus Christ and the power of God to save men is this foolishness.

Follow this logic in these verses:

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Review:

What is the foolishness of God - The preaching of the cross of Jesus Christ
What is the power of God - 1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it (the preaching of the cross) is the power of God.
Power of God for what? To save! - 1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

So, Christ is both the foolishness of God (the weakness) and the wisdom of God at the same time) - Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. V 24

But what about this calling?

What is the context?

1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

They are called to be saints and they are called saints but they are sanctified in Christ Jesus first! The ministry of the Holy Spirit is to sanctify those who believe and place them in the body of Christ, and to make them a child of God. This is what it means to be saved. However, the one who is saved has a duty then to be practice personal santification in his life. He is to be set apart. He is to be holy. It is a clling.
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all [men], and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: (Because not many of them are saved and that is still true today).

1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

The conclusion of chapter 1 is that the utterance of the saints was about baptism and the speech of the apostle Paul was about the gospel, where the power power of God is and that was the difference. Their speech was in tune with the wisdom of the world and human logic which was a great error that needed correction.

Now, Chap 2:

We are still speaking about speech and utterance and how we must have the knowlege that is given by God through grace to them who are called to be saints.

1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

This is serious! This is the very learned Paul speaking, who was educated above almost all the wise of the world and he is not even planning on appealing to any of it but to that which anyone with a little knowlege can understand: Look what he says:

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

That is very simple!

4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

Why Paul?

1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Now, what did you say the power of God is?

Oh, yes, I remember! 1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Now he begins to talk of this hidden wisdom of God that is associated with the power of God, the crucifixion of Christ, and what he says is mind boggling!

6 ¶ Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet (we speak) not the wisdom of this world (like baptism), nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God (What is the wisdom of God - Christ) in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom (If Christ is the wisdom, he is even the hidden wisdom), which God ordained before the world unto our glory:


This is an incredible statement:

8 Which (the wisdom of God) none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

If they had known about God saving people through the cross of Jesus Christ, they would not have crucified him!

But what about us? God has prepared other things to know that cannot be learned with man's methods which is study of mans words but they must be revealed by the Spirit who knows the mind of God.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them ( The mystery of Christ) unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. (We are sanctified, set apart from the worldly wise, by the Spirit).

THIS IS THE ENRICHING KNOWLEGE! 1 Cor 1:4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;


1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.


The contrast now between the spiritual and the natural man concerning the things that must be revealed to the sanctified, set apart, believer in Jesus Christ:


13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


There are things that are freely given to us by God, but one must be spiritual to receive them:

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

The foolish lost men, who are the subject thus far of the first two chapters, and are characterized as "natural men" cannot understand the mysteries associated with Christ and his cross, but neither can the "carnal", i e fleshly among the saints, who are saved but do not love Christ.

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.

Paul did not explain the mystery to these carnal Corinthians because of their divisisions and their carnality and did not explain it until he could do it to a more mature and spirititual church, the Ephesians and Colossians in AD 60. Corinthians was written in AD 54.

The wisdom of the world says God cannot save men by the simple gospel message that Paul said he gloried in. They say it is impossible for a lost man to hear and believe what Jesus Christ did for mankind on the cross and be saved because of it. It is just not complicated enough. It is too simple! When, in fact, it is the only way for men to be saved. It is the wisdom of God!

This is serious business for us all! We must get the gospel right for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes it! Ro 1:16

 

[drstevej]

Ovoidance? Ofraid?

[/quote]


Oh Mama you know what he means.

=======

children born not of natural descent,nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

children born not of natural descent,nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of human decision nevertheless.

========

Calvinism is unrefuted.

 

[nobdysfool]

Calvinism is unrefuted.[/quote]

And will remain unrefuted.

 

[drstevej]

Most Christians worldwide believe that God knows beforehand who will accept the gospel, because God knows the future and, in fact, is in the future. Most believe that God loves everyone, and reaches out to everyone and wants everyone to be saved.

Truth is not a poll conclusion.

 

[cygnusx1]

Those who believe that they have been predestinated do not have a real appreciation of the Gospel.

they are in awe because of it !

If you think that you have been predestinated then who needs faith, grace, the forgiveness of sins. Who needs to repent. Who needs to do anything.

the predestined ones ! God saves through means

I assume you use tools when you do DIY ... maybe not !

Calvinism is anti-faith, anti-grace, anti-gospel, anti-bible, anti-christ.

Despicable ! : abhorrent, abominable, antipathetic, contemptible, despisable, detestable, disgusting, filthy, foul, infamous, loathsome, lousy, low, mean , nasty, nefarious, obnoxious, odious, repugnant, rotten, shabby, vile, wretched.

Romans 5:15-18, the gift of God is mentioned 5 times. Salvation is a gift from God, it cannot be earned or deserved otherwise it would not be a gift. The only thing that one can do to receive God's great free gift of salvation is to accept it as a free gift.

salvation isn't like going shopping .... now who is demonstrating that they have no real appreciation of the Gospel.

"For by grace are you saved, through faith and not that of yourselves, it is a gift from God." Ephesians 2:8.

yes , Paul indicates not only is salvation by grace (even free-willers ADMIT IT) but salvation by faith is also by grace , that is the entire OPERATION is by grace ; faith isn't a hill on which to look down on others!

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Most Christians worldwide believe that God knows beforehand who will accept the gospel, because God knows the future and, in fact, is in the future. Most believe that God loves everyone, and reaches out to everyone and wants everyone to be saved.

Most people worldwide aren't Christians. Therefore, Christ isn't God.

 

[Hammster]

Calvinism is correct because most people in this thread are Calvinists.

 

[JDS]

Calvinism has been soundly refuted
Their logic here is convoluted
Their doctrines proven to be unsuited
And the word through them is much polluted

They will not admit defeat
But will continue to repeat
The errors & diversions with conceit
Until their apostasy is complete

The Arminian brags he has seen the light
And now he has his teaching right
When he converts and makes his plight
With Calvin’s boys he thinks he’s right

Calvinism wins but precious few
They don’t evangelize its true
No invitation given when they do
Predestination is the rule

This is the sign of latter days
Many departing from God’s ways
But Calvin’s glory is ablaze
And none depart from it’s rays

Not one of these men have arisen
To help us understand their Calvinism
And so I know they are imprisoned
And the end is a cataclysm

 

[Hammster]

Calvinism has been soundly refuted
Their logic here is convoluted
Their doctrines proven to be unsuited
And the word through them is much polluted

They will not admit defeat
But will continue to repeat
The errors & diversions with conceit
Until their apostasy is complete

The Arminian brags he has seen the light
And now he has his teaching right
When he converts and makes his plight
With Calvin’s boys he thinks he’s right

Calvinism wins but precious few
They don’t evangelize its true
No invitation given when they do
Predestination is the rule

This is the sign of latter days
Many departing from God’s ways
But Calvin’s glory is ablaze
And none depart from it’s rays

Not one of these men have arisen
To help us understand their Calvinism
And so I know they are imprisoned
And the end is a cataclysm

JDS does have a sense of humor. Yea!!!