Calvinism or Arminianism?

hedrick

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I believe that they mainly disagree with each other because of, essentially, different approaches at how to appropriate Augustine's theology (OK...some of it anyway). which of course is largely why the matter is virtually unspoken of in Eastern theology. At least, not as it was in the West. Will most certainly was spoken of. A whole ecumenical council was devoted to it.

Certainly predestination in its Calvinist form is part of the heritage of Augustine. You can reasonably argue that Catholic theology is, as you say, a different way of appropriating other parts of Augustine. However Arminius wasn't a Catholic, and thus wasn't really part of an independent approach to Augustine. He was a Reformed teacher who thought Calvin, or at least Calvin's followers, had gone too far (i.e. had exceeded the Biblical evidence).

Calvin did a pretty good job at recapturing a Biblical perspective on many areas, particularly the atonement. (You need to use his actual views, not the rather misleading claims about what he taught.) Given the historical context I can see why he was attracted by predestination. I'm slowly coming to doubt the overall Augustinian vision. But within that tradition, I think Luther probably did a better job with predestination and related issues than Calvin did. His concern was that when you start trying to understand God's left hand (I'm tempted to say "the dark side of the Force") you can easily turn God into something demonic. He would diagnose later Calvinist theology, and to some extent Calvin himself, as having fallen into a "theology of glory."
 
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Ignatius21

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#1) It's Arminianism, not Armenianism. Arminianism is a doctrine. Armenians are citizens of the republic of Armenia
:cool:

Actually, Armenianism also refers to the Armenian Orthodox Church. While not in full communion with the "Eastern Orthodox" churches, they're still extremely close in faith, piety and doctrine.

So given the choice between Calvinism and Armenianism, I'd go with the Armenians every time :p
 
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elman

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Certainly predestination in its Calvinist form is part of the heritage of Augustine. You can reasonably argue that Catholic theology is, as you say, a different way of appropriating other parts of Augustine. However Arminius wasn't a Catholic, and thus wasn't really part of an independent approach to Augustine. He was a Reformed teacher who thought Calvin, or at least Calvin's followers, had gone too far (i.e. had exceeded the Biblical evidence).

Calvin did a pretty good job at recapturing a Biblical perspective on many areas, particularly the atonement. (You need to use his actual views, not the rather misleading claims about what he taught.) Given the historical context I can see why he was attracted by predestination. I'm slowly coming to doubt the overall Augustinian vision. But within that tradition, I think Luther probably did a better job with predestination and related issues than Calvin did. His concern was that when you start trying to understand God's left hand (I'm tempted to say "the dark side of the Force") you can easily turn God into something demonic. He would diagnose later Calvinist theology, and to some extent Calvin himself, as having fallen into a "theology of glory."

I don't believe God has a dark side.
 
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Skala

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I have an honest question, not aimed at blasting anyone in particular.

So, let's say someone that is not predestined to accept Jesus as his savior begins reading the Bible, begins to pursue knowledge and wisdom, and eventually finds faith in Jesus Christ and accepts Him as Lord and savior, believing in His death and resurrection.

Is this possible? I know it sounds like a stupid question, but if we have free will how can God choose salvation for one person and not for another?

Simple, a nonpredestined person would never have a desire to accept Jesus or believe in him, and would never do so.

So what you described is impossible.

The only reason anyone at all actually does come to faith in Christ is because he/she was predestined.

There is no such thing a predestined person who never comes to faith, and there is no such thing as a non-predestined person to comes to faith.

It's not as if a person will come to faith in Christ and God will say "No!!! I reject you cuz you weren't predestined!!!" :p

The only reason anyone at all comes to faith is because God chose them to do so before time began.
 
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Skala

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Ignatius and hendrick are both right. If the Bible were clear then there wouldn't be Calvinism and Arminianism. As I have said before I have cousin who attends a Presbyterian church and I attend a Methodist church. We view the acts of grace differently but BOTH agree in grace.

The Bible is clear, but there still remains human pride, that's why there's Arminianism.
 
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Skala

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Ignatius and hendrick are both right. If the Bible were clear then there wouldn't be Calvinism and Arminianism. As I have said before I have cousin who attends a Presbyterian church and I attend a Methodist church. We view the acts of grace differently but BOTH agree in grace.

The Bible is clear, but there still remains human pride, that's why there's Arminianism.

"Nooo! I don't want to admit that hte reason I believe (and not my neighbor) is because God chose me! I want to say that I'm simply more moral and better than my unbelieving neighbor! I want a pat on the back for doing the right thing. I want some credit for my belief! I won't give God all the credit!!" <--Arminianism
 
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Skala

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Actually, Armenianism also refers to the Armenian Orthodox Church. While not in full communion with the "Eastern Orthodox" churches, they're still extremely close in faith, piety and doctrine.

So given the choice between Calvinism and Armenianism, I'd go with the Armenians every time :p

I'd rather stick with whatever more closely matches exegesis of the scriptures, than choose whichever matches your current denominational choice. That's sort of biased! :)
 
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Ignatius21

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The Bible is clear, but there still remains human pride, that's why there's Arminianism.

"Nooo! I don't want to admit that hte reason I believe (and not my neighbor) is because God chose me! I want to say that I'm simply more moral and better than my unbelieving neighbor! I want a pat on the back for doing the right thing. I want some credit for my belief! I won't give God all the credit!!" <--Arminianism

Kindly find me one Arminian who has said this. Or one of anyone.

You're forcing their position into a logical end that you wish for it to reach. Same as they can (sometimes) force Calvinism into a logical end that equates to fatalism, attempting to disprove it by making it unpalatable.

Neither side claims glory that belongs to God. Both reach some terminal point at which it must be admitted that we're in the area of mystery as to how it's all possible. And each side tries to push the other past that point of mystery, while remaining comfortably within its own mystery.
 
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Ignatius21

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How come Lutheranism always gets left out of this? It seems to me that they are almost never invited to the party...

Because they're still Catholics! ;)

KIDDING! I don't want to offend any Lutherans and end up with stuff carved into my table with the blade of a knife... :thumbsup:

The real answer is that Lutherans don't fit neatly into the mold that this particular forum insists is the only allowable playing field. But hey, neither do I. And neither do you, for that matter. But it's kind of fun to watch from a distance while we drink beer and burn incense.
 
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Ignatius21

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I'd rather stick with whatever more closely matches exegesis of the scriptures, than choose whichever matches your current denominational choice. That's sort of biased! :)

Oh, but I am sticking to whatever most closely matches the exegesis of the scriptures! ;)
 
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Skala

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Kindly find me one Arminian who has said this. Or one of anyone.

You're forcing their position into a logical end that you wish for it to reach. Same as they can (sometimes) force Calvinism into a logical end that equates to fatalism, attempting to disprove it by making it unpalatable.

Neither side claims glory that belongs to God. Both reach some terminal point at which it must be admitted that we're in the area of mystery as to how it's all possible. And each side tries to push the other past that point of mystery, while remaining comfortably within its own mystery.

Can you think of any other reason why a Christian wouldn't want to credit God's grace alone for the fact that he/she is a believer in Jesus Christ?

Calvinist: The reason I believe is because of grace
Arminian: The reason I believe is because of me

In Arminianism, what makes two people to differ is not God's grace, (for God gives everyone the same grace, the same chance, the same prevenient grace, etc), therefore what must make two people to ultimately differ is the people themselves.
 
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elman

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You don't even know if you'll make it to heaven. I don't see any reason to have confidence in anything you say. You need to repent and believe the Gospel.

Done. And you do not know if you are deluding yourself like the goats did in Matt 25 or not. You just think you know. They also thought they knew.
 
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elman

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Can you think of any other reason why a Christian wouldn't want to credit God's grace alone for the fact that he/she is a believer in Jesus Christ?

Calvinist: The reason I believe is because of grace
Arminian: The reason I believe is because of me
Because Jesus said we could and should love others? I believe God gifted every human being with the ability to obey that command. I did not say God gifted every human being to love as perfectly and completely as God. The grace is not about my not being able to love my neighbor. The grace is about my not being able to love completely and perfectly like God.
 
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guuila

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Because Jesus said we could and should love others? I believe God gifted every human being with the ability to obey that command. I did not say God gifted every human being to love as perfectly and completely as God. The grace is not about my not being able to love my neighbor. The grace is about my not being able to love completely and perfectly like God.

Do you love me Elman?
 
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