Calvin missed this aspect of Foreknowledge

[Alfred Persson]

KJV Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

One of the just and right judgments of God was Predestination of the Elect unto salvation.

“How is God just and right,” someone might ask, “when He said all have the Free Will choice of life or death (De 30:19 cp Ge 4:7), but in fact God had already predestined all who would be saved, even before the world began, and not according to any choice they made in this life. (Eph 1:5; 2:8)?

Paul’s words supply the answer, but we must deduce it.

Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.-kjv

Did “foreknow” (proginosko) is “to know before,” did “predestine” (proorizo) is to “foreordain.” Foreknowing is coordinate with predestinating, naturally read, the first causes the second.

Should we violate Ockham’s razor and view this “not as metaphysically true, but in concession to human limitations of thought” (Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament, Bellingham, WA), or allow parsimony dictate as it is the common characteristic evident in correct interpretation?

Accepting the natural reading doesn’t contradict salvation by grace alone as it is clear God already knows who are His, none of the foreknown fail to be conformed to Jesus.

So nothing said so far contradicts salvation by grace alone:

Ephesians 2:5-9 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

“Paul elaborated, And this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. Much debate has centered around the demonstrative pronoun “this” (touto). Though some think it refers back to “grace” and others to “faith,” neither of these suggestions is really valid because the demonstrative pronoun is neuter whereas “grace” and “faith” are feminine. Also, to refer back to either of these words specifically seems to be redundant. Rather the neuter touto, as is common, refers to the preceding phrase or clause. (In Eph. 1:15 and 3:1 touto, “this,” refers back to the preceding section.) Thus it refers back to the concept of salvation (2:4-8a), whose basis is grace and means is faith. This salvation does not have its source in man (it is “not from yourselves”), but rather, its source is God’s grace for “it is the gift of God.” –Walvoord, John F. The Bible Knowledge Commentary, Victor Books (Wheaton, IL), 1983-1985.


So what was this foreknowing for if it’s not for God’s benefit?

There are scriptural parallels to God knowing His own perfectly, yet He still tests their loyalty:

Psalm 11:
4 The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.
5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.
7 For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

Job 23:10 But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold.

So why does God test those He already knows are His? One answer is in the book of Job, such tests occur for the benefit of others:

KJV Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them….9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

Hence, tests of loyalty occur so that angelic observers can see for themselves God is not wrong about who are His.

KJV 1 Corinthians 4:9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

Of course there are a plethora of other reasons for trial in the life of the believer that are completely unrelated to knowing them:
John 15:2 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

KJV Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

But those are irrelevant to this thesis which suggests God trys the righteous to prove the rightness of His choosing them, to others.

What of the wicked? In parallel with Ro 8:29, it doesn’t appear God wants to know the wicked as He does the upright:

Ps 37:18-20
18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.
19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.
20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Nahum 1:7-8
7 The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him.
8 But with an overrunning flood he will make an utter end of the place thereof, and darkness shall pursue his enemies.=kjv

Evidently the wicked are irrelevant to God, as He is good. Therefore God doesn’t want to know them, and so they perish.

So where am I going with this?

Suppose two blind men were describing the same elephant. The one feeling the tail seems to contradict the one touching its ears. But to the one viewing the entire elephant, the contrary statements make perfect sense.

So Paul has in mind a much greater construct than anything proposed by either Pelagius or Calvin. Its not free will versus Election by grace, its God knowing who are His, but choosing to reveal the rightness of that choice to all who might wonder.

Consistent with this construct, the verb proginosko means God “knew these before.”

Before what? Their existence? Nothing that exists does so apart from God or His knowing. God is omnipresent, He fills all things, including Eternity (Is 57:15). God cannot be contained by time and space, the very existence of that is dependant upon Him (1 Ki 8:27; Col 1:15). Hence we read Eph 2:6 “made us sit in heavenly places” or Re. 13:8 “Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”)

So there is no “before” God’s knowing, for anything that exists.

However contingencies, “what if” scenarios which never achieve objective existence, can be objects of God's foreknowledge.

So the data leads naturally to this conclusion, God already knew all who are His, but chose to put them to the test, in a contingency that evidenced the rightness of their election: When their will was truly free, they chose God.

This was done for the benefit of creation, not for Him. He already knows who are His.

Lest God’s Elect, whether human or angelic (1 Ti 5:21), mourn the non selection of loved ones, God reveals via foreknowledge why some were selected so all questions about this can be answered. It would be an act of kindness not to foreknow the non elect, as then the full measure of their evil is known only to God.

God offers salvation to those not selected, but these never take Him up on His offer:

KJV Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. 8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

KJV Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

So all creation will see the Judgments of God:

KJV Revelation 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

It was God’s good pleasure and will to save the Elect, and do so in a way that would allow them to enjoy eternity even though some of their loved ones weren’t selected.

KJV Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

It is written:

KJV 1 John 3:8 …For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

This means none of God’s elect will be lost, otherwise the devil’s work wasn’t destroyed.

It follows from all that is revealed about our Loving God, that if even one of His Elect were lost, God would mourn their absence for all eternity. Therefore we can be certain, not a hair upon their head will be lost.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

 

[Jipsah]

Did “foreknow” (proginosko) is “to know before,” did “predestine” (proorizo) is to “foreordain.” Foreknowing is coordinate with predestinating, naturally read, the first causes the second.

Only if your doctrine demands it. If foreknowledge indicated that someone was to be saved, then what part does predestination play? It sounds as though God is merely rubber-stamping something that was going to happen anyway, and that "predestine" thus means "didn't stop it". That makes no sense.

Should we violate Ockham’s razor and view this “not as metaphysically true, but in concession to human limitations of thought” (Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament, Bellingham, WA), or allow parsimony dictate as it is the common characteristic evident in correct interpretation?"

Shot who? What I'm hearing you say there is that parsimony requires that we believe that the use of the term "foreknowledge" in the Scripture is significant, but that the use of "predestine" is redundant. Again, I submit that you're simply hammering the Scripture to make it fit your doctrinal presuppositions, and trying to drag old Bill Ockham in to make it sound better.

Accepting the natural reading doesn’t contradict salvation by grace alone

It certainly doesn't help it. It reduces God to the role of an observer who foresees that some individuals will do whatever is needful to be saved and does nothing to stop it. Salvation, then, is not so much by grace but by the merits (whether those merits are works, or faith, or some combination thereof) of the individual.

as it is clear God already knows who are His, none of the foreknown fail to be conformed to Jesus.

This is essentially saying that God knows who will "accept Christ", and that if He knows they will, they will. OK.

So nothing said so far contradicts salvation by grace alone

Except that you're now positing salvation not "sola gratia", but based on the foreknown merits of the recipient. It may be, in your view, that grace alone has made those particular qualities sufficient to merit salvation, but it is, in the end, the possession of those qualities that decide the issue. Grace enables, but it doesn't save.

Its not free will versus Election by grace, its God knowing who are His, but choosing to reveal the rightness of that choice to all who might wonder.

Which still leaves the issue in the hands of the individual, and God simply a passive observer.

God offers salvation to those not selected, but these never take Him up on His offer:

Again, in this view God proposes and man disposes. It's all up to us in the end. God has provided the possibility, but it is we who choose to be saved or not.

But isn't that true in every religion? In Islam, if you follow the 5 pillars God will reward you by allowing you to go to Heaven. In Buddhism if you follow the True Way you will be rewarded with Nirvana. If you're a Cargo Cultist and you perform whatever things it is that your dieties want done they'll reward you with cargo. So if you're a Christian and you have faith and/or do good works, God will reward you with eternal life.

Christianity, then, has been massaged into looking like all the other religions that man has made. And there's a reason for that - that't the kind of religion that man wants, and that we're comfortable with. We want to be in control, we want to be in charge, we want to be the Captains of our Fates and the Masters of our Souls. We want God to stay out of the way until He's sent for. We want Him to lay down the rules and then stand back and let us sink or swim on our own. We want to be able to say "I found it", "I have decided", "I will arise and go", "I saw the light", "I have accepted", I, I, I, I, I.

The idea that God saved us against our will really rubs us the wrong way. The idea of grace really being about unmerited favor, and about us really having no reason to boast (far from it!) sticks in our craws. So we recast it so that God extended His grace to those who He simply knew ahead of time were going to make the cut on their own. We just dispense with the idea of predestination, since it doesn't fit in with our "we do it our ownselves" idea of salvation.

Notice how many times you'll hear someone refer to those who "believe in predestination" in slighting terms, as though the Bible didn't explicitly speak of predestination? It's because those folks have taken the next logical step. They've gone from making the term "predestine" a bit of redundant verbiage in the Scripture, to, at least mentally, removing it altogether. They'e gone from "it can't really mean what it says so it must mean something else" to "it doesn't really say it at all". It's all mental gymnastics, designed to preserve our own all-too-human hubris. We want to have saved ourselves, so we doctor the Bible so as to give ourselves credit for what only God has done, and what only God can do.

 

[JolieHeart]

So.... God knows who is/are His children... but he makes room for more (those who repent and accept Christ) ...

... Does that cover it?

 

[nobdysfool]

Only if your doctrine demands it. If foreknowledge indicated that someone was to be saved, then what part does predestination play? It sounds as though God is merely rubber-stamping something that was going to happen anyway, and that "predestine" thus means "didn't stop it". That makes no sense.

Shot who? What I'm hearing you say there is that parsimony requires that we believe that the use of the term "foreknowledge" in the Scripture is significant, but that the use of "predestine" is redundant. Again, I submit that you're simply hammering the Scripture to make it fit your doctrinal presuppositions, and trying to drag old Bill Ockham in to make it sound better.

It certainly doesn't help it. It reduces God to the role of an observer who foresees that some individuals will do whatever is needful to be saved and does nothing to stop it. Salvation, then, is not so much by grace but by the merits (whether those merits are works, or faith, or some combination thereof) of the individual.

This is essentially saying that God knows who will "accept Christ", and that if He knows they will, they will. OK.

Except that you're now positing salvation not "sola gratia", but based on the foreknown merits of the recipient. It may be, in your view, that grace alone has made those particular qualities sufficient to merit salvation, but it is, in the end, the possession of those qualities that decide the issue. Grace enables, but it doesn't save.

Which still leaves the issue in the hands of the individual, and God simply a passive observer.

Again, in this view God proposes and man disposes. It's all up to us in the end. God has provided the possibility, but it is we who choose to be saved or not.

But isn't that true in every religion? In Islam, if you follow the 5 pillars God will reward you by allowing you to go to Heaven. In Buddhism if you follow the True Way you will be rewarded with Nirvana. If you're a Cargo Cultist and you perform whatever things it is that your dieties want done they'll reward you with cargo. So if you're a Christian and you have faith and/or do good works, God will reward you with eternal life.

Christianity, then, has been massaged into looking like all the other religions that man has made. And there's a reason for that - that't the kind of religion that man wants, and that we're comfortable with. We want to be in control, we want to be in charge, we want to be the Captains of our Fates and the Masters of our Souls. We want God to stay out of the way until He's sent for. We want Him to lay down the rules and then stand back and let us sink or swim on our own. We want to be able to say "I found it", "I have decided", "I will arise and go", "I saw the light", "I have accepted", I, I, I, I, I.

The idea that God saved us against our will really rubs us the wrong way. The idea of grace really being about unmerited favor, and about us really having no reason to boast (far from it!) sticks in our craws. So we recast it so that God extended His grace to those who He simply knew ahead of time were going to make the cut on their own. We just dispense with the idea of predestination, since it doesn't fit in with our "we do it our ownselves" idea of salvation.

Notice how many times you'll hear someone refer to those who "believe in predestination" in slighting terms, as though the Bible didn't explicitly speak of predestination? It's because those folks have taken the next logical step. They've gone from making the term "predestine" a bit of redundant verbiage in the Scripture, to, at least mentally, removing it altogether. They'e gone from "it can't really mean what it says so it must mean something else" to "it doesn't really say it at all". It's all mental gymnastics, designed to preserve our own all-too-human hubris. We want to have saved ourselves, so we doctor the Bible so as to give ourselves credit for what only God has done, and what only God can do.

Amen, bro! Well said, and spot on!

 

[Van]

Hi LOC,

One of the just and right judgments of God was Predestination of the Elect unto salvation.

These no verse that says or implies this falsehood. Once a person has been chosen and spiritually placed in Christ, the sanctifying work of the Spirit, they are then predestined to two things: (1) to be conformed to the image of Christ, Romans 8:29, and (2) to adoption as children of God which refers to our bodily resurrection.

Since God sets before us the choice of life or death, and not the so called "choice" of life only before the elect and the so called "choice of death only before the non-elect, there is no need to dispute that God is just and perfect. He is!

Is it the natural reading to say that to be known by God intimately causes the second action, to be predestined? Of course. First you love God, then you are called according to His purpose and spiritually placed in Christ, thus becoming one of God's chosen people, and since you are "in Christ" and Christ is in you, you are intimately known by Christ. There is no need to violate Ockham's razor.

Yes before we were placed spiritually in Christ, we were dead in our sins, but when God spiritually placed us in Christ, we were made alive, regenerated, together with Christ.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Only if your doctrine demands it. If foreknowledge indicated that someone was to be saved, then what part does predestination play? It sounds as though God is merely rubber-stamping something that was going to happen anyway, and that "predestine" thus means "didn't stop it". That makes no sense.

All scripture is profitable for doctrine (2 Ti 3:16), it follows no scripture is incorrectly written.

The natural reading of Ro 8:29 is foreknowing CAUSES predestination, the latter follows the former.

If foreknowing had nothing to do with predestination, the scripture is not profitable at all, its misleading.

We must also note the passage says nothing about the non elect, as universal salvation is NOT true, and as all foreknown are predestined to be conformed.

Putting it all together, not jumping onto the Calvinist or Armianian bandwagon, as generally is the case, we discern there is something greater than either would have us believe.

To say God’s prescient knowledge of the elect is why He predestined them is to ignore the fact He already knew who He they were as He knows all things without foreknowledge.

To say God’s foreknowing necessarily implies double predestination, limited atonement, in clear contradiction to the teaching of our LORD Jesus Christ, is a massive violation of Ockham’s razor. The wicked are not subjects of conversation here at all.

But all scripture is profitable and the natural reading of this is foreknowing caused predestination somehow.

The only logical solution is that God didn’t foreknow us as we are now, that His foreknowledge reveals why He chose the elect to be conformed to the Image of His son.

It is the choice to predestine the Elect be conformed that is in play.

In other words, its not saying "all He foreknew He elected," its saying "all He foreknew He predestined to be conformed."

Its not a rubber stamp of His election, its a revealing of the rightness of their being conformed, while nothing is said of the non elect. They are irrelevant.

Rather the analogy of the faith indicates God is revealing His perfection to us, just as He does via scripture, and via creation.

God loves to reveal Himself, that is why He foreknew those He predestined to be conformed, to reveal the rightness of His choice, to us.

To say that is without purpose is to know neither the God of the Bible or yourself. There is no way the redeemed can say with their whole hearts, “righteous and true are your ways O LORD” if its by mere rote, mindless chanting.

They must know, in their heart of hearts, via the facts, that the statement is true.

If God wanted robots singing praises, He wouldn’t bother revealing Himself to us, ever.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Which still leaves the issue in the hands of the individual, and God simply a passive observer.

That misstates my idea. We are not what we should be, because of the fall, therefore God's saving us is entirely by grace, and not because of anything we are or do, now.

So He is active, not passive, saving us.

It is your theory that has Him passive, in the face of His enemy satan.

You have Him as an observer to satan's destroying most of humanity, no doubt limiting election to a few.

So satan destroys most of humanity, while God watches?

My view has God saving ALL He knows are His, regardless of what satan did to them. That is not observing, itis destroying utterly the works of the devil:

1 John 3:8 ...For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. ect, God keeps them all, and makes their salvation happen, and so destroying utterly the works of the devil

AND your view has God arbitrarily choosing folks, for no reason or for reasons He won't reveal.

That completely dissimilar to the God revealed in scripture.

So "whosoever believeth is not condemned" must be understood as meaning, "regardless what you are or believe, God arbitrarily chose whom He would save and whom He wouldn't, it doesn't matter what you believe."

And you say my position conforms scripture to an odd belief?

 

[Alfred Persson]

So.... God knows who is/are His children... but he makes room for more (those who repent and accept Christ) ...

... Does that cover it?

No. God already knew who are His. He foreknows to reveal the correctness of the decision they be conformed to His son.

The non elect have full opportunity to repent and believe. They don't want to.

Even if their free will were completely free of all causes for make a bad choice, they would make the bad choice. Therefore predestining them to be conformed to Jesus would be a mistake.

Conforming doesn't negate free will. Then immortal glorous beings would do as their father satan did, rebel against God without cause. That is what they want and therefore it would be wrong to permit they afflict the righteous for all eternity.

 

[nobdysfool]

So much confusion, and talking past each other, and promoting false ideas about what others believe. The so-called "robot" accusation being chief.

God can and does work in the hearts of those whom He chooses, in such a way that they freely choose what He predestined. His predestination of them to salvation is not on the basis of what or who they are, what they have done, are doing, or will do, or any consideration other than His Will for them, that they be conformed to the Image of His Son, because He set His love on them and chose them to be what He has willed, to the praise of His glorious Grace. He chose them and predestined them to salvation because it seemed good in His sight.

This is what many oppose, because it removes all credit and all choice from themselves, and places it in God as the Sovereign Creator, Who is free to do with His Creation as He Wills.

No one deserves salvation, no one is worthy of it, so why do they try to take some measure of credit for it? It is the innate rebellion present in the heart of man, as a result of the Fall. Salvation is all of God, none of man. He saves those whom He saves, not because of anything they do, have done, or will do, but because of what He Himself has done. Period.

 

[justsurfing]

It is written:

KJV 1 John 3:8 …For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

This means none of God’s elect will be lost, otherwise the devil’s work wasn’t destroyed.

It follows from all that is revealed about our Loving God, that if even one of His Elect were lost, God would mourn their absence for all eternity. Therefore we can be certain, not a hair upon their head will be lost.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Hi, ,

You say that because of God's Love... God would mourn the absence of even one of the elect for all eternity. By this, we can be certain that not one of them will be lost. Otherwise, Satan would not be destroyed.

But what of those termed the "reprobate"?

Does not the Love of God care for them? Did Jesus die for all sin and become the Savior of the world... to then not be concerned for their being lost?

I believe you have correctly ascertained the heart of God. I believe that you correctly have insight that the devil would not truly be destroyed if any of those Jesus has loved and died for and ransomed... would fail to be fully redeemed in eternity.

What if... election and reprobation determine who "makes" the 1000 year reign of Christ and who does not?... And God's foreknowledge of and predestination to the adoption as sons includes both elect and reprobate... because God's Love is not limited, the atonement is not limited, God's infinite grace is not limited, the body and blood of the Lord Jesus is not limited... to a select few... but rather given to all who are the called? All.

Many are called... few are chosen.

God would mourn throughout eternity, and the devil would not be fully destroyed, if all who were the called... were not saved and glorified... in the very end.

God has called all. God loves all through the Lord Jesus Christ. This inclusion in His love and care in Christ... is without exception.

The work of Satan, then, shall be fully destroyed. Not one person born of Adam will fail to be made alive in the Lord Jesus Christ... or the heart of God... would not stand it.

His anger lasts for a moment... but His mercy endures.

To know the heart of God... revealed in scripture... is to know who, and how many, He has ultimately chosen to final redemption in Christ, imo.

Psalm 30:5 (King James Version)

5For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.

There is no possible way that God, who is Love, could allow His anger to last for ever and ever... and refuse favor, grace, and joy... to anyone born of Adam - who was God's son.

All the children of Adam were, quite ultimately, called to be born as children of God... in Adam's day of creation when all mankind was in Adam... and through the 2nd Adam Jesus Christ (the lifegiving Spirit).

Our Redeemer lives.

God bless,

js

 

[heymikey80]

Calvin missed this aspect of Foreknowledge

No. He didn't. In fact Calvin answered your assertion four hundred fifty years before you made it -- apparently you're in ignorance of what he said, not to mention the discussion that's been going on regarding this verse. Did you read the thread on God's foreknowledge which went before?

Well, read Calvin now.

the foreknowledge of God, which Paul mentions, is not a bare prescience, as some unwise persons absurdly imagine, but the adoption by which he had always distinguished his children from the reprobate. In the same sense Peter says, that the faithful had been elected to the sanctification of the Spirit according to the foreknowledge of God. Hence those, to whom I have alluded, foolishly draw this inference, — That God has elected none but those whom he foresaw would be worthy of his grace. Peter does not in deed flatter the faithful, as though every one had been elected on account of his merit; but by reminding them of the eternal counsel of God, he wholly deprives them of all worthiness. So Paul does in this passage, who repeats by another word what he had said before of God’s purpose. It hence follows, that this knowledge is connected with God’s good pleasure; for he foreknew nothing out of himself, in adopting those whom he was pleased to adopt; but only marked out those whom he had purposed to elect.
​

God predestinates the people God knows. If that were the people God knows about, well God knows about everyone. So everyone would be predestinated right through to glorification.

Which offends God's assertion that some would not be glorified, but condemned.

Therefore Romans 8:29 must not mean "foreknow about".

The alternate: God knows His people. That is much like you know your family. God knows His people intimately, before they are even brought into existence in His creation. It's a personal intimacy, a knowing that is deeper than knowing about someone.

Remember this statement? "Depart from me. I never knew you." Yeah. Like that.

God knows you personally. For that reason He predestines you. He's not predicting you will have faith and then predestining you based on that. Instead He gives you that faith, by giving you the Holy Spirit. Why? Because He knows you. He knew you before the electrons existed that sent this information to your screen. He's a Personal God. And He knows you personally.

 

[Jipsah]

Hi LOC,
These no verse that says or implies this falsehood.

Ephesians 1 says it explicitly.

 

[Jipsah]

It is your theory that has Him passive, in the face of His enemy satan.

You have Him as an observer to satan's destroying most of humanity, no doubt limiting election to a few.

I'll toss aside the almost Manichean view of Satan for now, and once more address the standard Arminian canard of "God will only save a few". Boy, good thing that salvation is left up to individual human beings, 'cause if God had to do it He's save hardly anyone, right? Pretty dismal view of a loving God, don'tcha think?

So satan destroys most of humanity, while God watches?

Sorry, mate, but I don't assign that much power to Satan, nor, I believe, do most Arminians. But in any case, leaving it up to those who are subject to satanic manipulation is hardly charitable. We Calvinists see God as saving all those who are saved. Arminianism sees God as saving no one, but merely giving those who choose salvation the possibility of doing so and leaving the rest to them. Dunno about you, but if I'm drowning, I'd prefer someone pull me out rather than just telling me to swim. Maybe that's just me.

My view has God saving ALL He knows are His

I.E., those who've "accepted Christ". The choice is still all theirs.

AND your view has God arbitrarily choosing folks, for no reason or for reasons He won't reveal.

Good job that we humans could understand everything that exists in the mind of God. We wouldn't want Him to get uppity.

And you say my position conforms scripture to an odd belief?

Yep, that I do.