"Born again" is not in the original text,

Dahveed

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Indeed, Now that you're in the faith you are united to Christ. Gal 3:25-29

But it may be falling on deaf ears, since you have become dull of hearing. Hebrews 5:10-14
lol, again posting unrelated out of context verses. It is not my fault if you have a problem staying within context of the OP and on topic...
The OP has to do with a new birth in Christ,
But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, (to ransom, to redeem, to atone for) those who were subject to the Law, that we might have sonship conferred upon us [and be recognized as God’s sons]. And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts...Gal 4:4-6
I will leave the milk for you...
Who tends a flock and does not drink of the milk?
Drink of the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby, now that you have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
Coming to Him as to a living stone, 1 Peter 2:2-6
Having put on the new man renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all. Col 3:10-11
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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The OP has to do with a new birth in Christ,
But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, (to ransom, to redeem, to atone for) those who were subject to the Law, that we might have sonship conferred upon us [and be recognized as God’s sons]. And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts...Gal 4:4-6

Who tends a flock and does not drink of the milk?
Drink of the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby, now that you have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
Coming to Him as to a living stone, 1 Peter 2:2-6
Having put on the new man renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all. Col 3:10-11
So you don't understand it either it would seem....Matthew 13:14
 
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JulieB67

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I think it's called born again because we were alive spiritually before...Before the foundations of the world, He knew you. He knit us together in the womb.
This is not too far from what I believe. I believe God created everyone before the foundation of this present world/age. And that's exactly why he knew us before we are put into the womb, etc. He definitely implys this in numerous verses with Job, Jeremiah, Ephesians and so on.
Born of water = 1 Birth.
Born of Spirit = Born Again, from above, and all the above praise the Lord!
I believe water is the first birth/physical which is from above with God putting us in the womb.

And then I believe we are then born in the Spirit when we come together with Christ.
 
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Divide

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This is not too far from what I believe. I believe God created everyone before the foundation of this present world/age. And that's exactly why he knew us before we are put into the womb, etc. He definitely implys this in numerous verses with Job, Jeremiah, Ephesians and so on.

I think this has to be because, think about it, What kind of character does Jesus have? Oh! That's right! He doesn't force Himself on anyone. He allows us our Free Will to make the choice for ourselves. And as we already know, God does not change. Am I right?

Ya' know those people who say, "I didn't ask to be born here" when they are mad? I've heard several people say it. The thing is, I don't think they thought it through sufficiently! If God doesn't force anything on us, and He never changes, then that can only mean that we were given a choice to be (born of water & spirit) born on Earth. I bet we all signed up for this University of Brotherly Love, where we are supposed to learn to Love everyone like we would want them to love us! That's a tall order on a planet where everybody's trying to kill you!

And I thought Trig was hard! Lol. And if this is the case, then it makes sense that the Lord prolly even let us choose our parents before being born here?!
 
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Divide

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I believe water is the first birth/physical which is from above with God putting us in the womb.

And then I believe we are then born in the Spirit when we come together with Christ.

Sister, we are on the same page! That's refreshing for me! We have to be born of water and the spirit, so the physical birth has to be the water birth. That's exactly what my Wife said for both of my sons...my water broke! And then a Baby was born. That's just so obvious and Jesus came right to the point. After the water birth at some point the little baby grows up enough to make a conclusion, I should be born of the spirit! The Spirit of God! Born of the Spirit.

Jesus wasn't even talking about Baptism. That is a thing to identify yourself as a Christ follwer to the world.
 
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Dahveed

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So you don't understand it either it would seem....Matthew 13:14
Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.

To you who believe, it has it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven,... blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; Matt 13:10-16

The Mystery Revealed
Which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit...that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel. [For you are all one in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:28]
According to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him. Eph 3:1-12
 
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Dahveed

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So you don't understand it either it would seem....Matthew 13:14
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. 1 Cor 4:5

This is because God has set a day when he is going to judge the world in righteousness by the man he has appointed. He has provided proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead. Acts 17:31

He will judge the world in righteousness and the peoples in his faithfulness. Psalm 96:13
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.

To you who believe, it has it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven,... blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; Matt 13:10-16

The Mystery Revealed
Which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit...that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel. [For you are all one in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:28]
According to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him. Eph 3:1-12
Luke 8:17 For nothing is secret that will not be revealed, nor anything hidden that will not be known and come to light.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. 1 Cor 4:5

This is because God has set a day when he is going to judge the world in righteousness by the man he has appointed. He has provided proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead. Acts 17:31

He will judge the world in righteousness and the peoples in his faithfulness. Psalm 96:13
Luke 8:16-18
 
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I always assumed that to be "born of water" was being born physically (the birth process) from your physical mother. And the second birth is of the spirit from the fire of the Spirit. Water and Fire.
Just a thought.

That's what I was taught when I was younger as well.

I've yet to look into the history of that interpretation, but my guess is that it is something of an ad hoc attempt at trying to rationalize away the implication that "water and the Spirit" refers to baptism.

Looking at some 17th century commentaries, such as those by Matthew Henry, Matthew Poole, and John Gill--all either Nonconformists or Baptists--tend toward a view that "water" is intended in a spiritual, symbolic sense--that water represents the Spirit, the grace of the Spirit, the cleansing power of the Spirit, etc.

Both Poole and Gill put in much effort in their commentaries on John 3:5 to the rejection of the traditional interpretation, though Henry acknowledges it as at least a possible meaning of the text.

So even in these early Baptist and non-Sacramental interpretations, there's no mention of the idea that "water" somehow speaks of our first and natural birth. Instead they attempt to assert the non-literalness of the water and that water is used purely in a symbolic manner in connection with the Spirit and His regenerating work.

I am, nevertheless left unresolved in my quest to figure out when this natural birth interpretation entered into the popular religious lexicon of Evangelical Protestantism.

The chief problem with the "natural birth" interpretation, at least from a purely textual view point, is that had Jesus intended to mean natural birth by the use of the term "of water" then it makes the text incredibly confusing and bizarre.

For one, Jesus doesn't say "born of water and born of Spirit", but speaks of a singular birth "of water and Spirit". For another it needlessly introduces the idea that what Jesus is saying is that in order to see God's kingdom requires instruction to have been born first from the womb; who are all of these unborn people that need to be told that, to see the kingdom of God, they must come out of the womb first--such is the inevitable conclusion if one assumes that is Jesus' meaning here.

This leads me again to my theory that the natural birth interpretation has its origins as an ad hoc explanation, that it likely never arose from a very serious work of biblical exegesis; as we can see that even those who rejected the traditional interpretation of baptism nevertheless still made some attempt to consider the exegetical meaning of the text by making "of water and Spirit" understood as a single principle of the new birth.

While I intend to keep trying to figure out this riddle, my current guess is that I doubt I'll see this interpretation pre-date the 20th century. And I think I'll be surprised if it pre-dates the Second World War, as the 30s-50s was a major period of history in evolution of American Christianity.

Editing to add: I've continued my attempts to look at various commentaries from the 19th and 20th centuries, and I am noting a trend--one that so far seems to be confirming my suspicions. Every commentary (so far, things may change as I keep looking through more) from before the mid-20th century notably lacks any mention of a natural birth view, but it shows up frequently in late 20th century and modern commentaries. So far nothing pre-dating the 1960's or 70's has emerged. So I'll continue looking.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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SavedByGrace3

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That's what I was taught when I was younger as well.

I've yet to look into the history of that interpretation, but my guess is that it is something of an ad hoc attempt at trying to rationalize away the implication that "water and the Spirit" refers to baptism.

Looking at some 17th century commentaries, such as those by Matthew Henry, Matthew Poole, and John Gill--all either Nonconformists or Baptists--tend toward a view that "water" is intended in a spiritual, symbolic sense--that water represents the Spirit, the grace of the Spirit, the cleansing power of the Spirit, etc.

Both Poole and Gill put in much effort in their commentaries on John 3:5 to the rejection of the traditional interpretation, though Henry acknowledges it as at least a possible meaning of the text.

So even in these early Baptist and non-Sacramental interpretations, there's no mention of the idea that "water" somehow speaks of our first and natural birth. Instead they attempt to assert the non-literalness of the water and that water is used purely in a symbolic manner in connection with the Spirit and His regenerating work.

I am, nevertheless left unresolved in my quest to figure out when this natural birth interpretation entered into the popular religious lexicon of Evangelical Protestantism.

The chief problem with the "natural birth" interpretation, at least from a purely textual view point, is that had Jesus intended to mean natural birth by the use of the term "of water" then it makes the text incredibly confusing and bizarre.

For one, Jesus doesn't say "born of water and born of Spirit", but speaks of a singular birth "of water and Spirit". For another it needlessly introduces the idea that what Jesus is saying is that in order to see God's kingdom requires instruction to have been born first from the womb; who are all of these unborn people that need to be told that, to see the kingdom of God, they must come out of the womb first--such is the inevitable conclusion if one assumes that is Jesus' meaning here.

This leads me again to my theory that the natural birth interpretation has its origins as an ad hoc explanation, that it likely never arose from a very serious work of biblical exegesis; as we can see that even those who rejected the traditional interpretation of baptism nevertheless still made some attempt to consider the exegetical meaning of the text by making "of water and Spirit" understood as a single principle of the new birth.

While I intend to keep trying to figure out this riddle, my current guess is that I doubt I'll see this interpretation pre-date the 20th century. And I think I'll be surprised if it pre-dates the Second World War, as the 30s-50s was a major period of history in evolution of American Christianity.

-CryptoLutheran
I will drag out my old tome about what early Christianity and the church fathers wrote.
Thanks for the contribution.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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My first thought is from the text and context of the conversation with Nicodemus.

John 3:3-6 KJV
3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Nicodemus understood Jesus to mean being born again from his physical mother. "he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born"
And Jesus responded as he understood that way also. "born of the flesh"

I suspect this is where I originally got the idea that born of water meant born of a mother, and born of flesh.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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John calls Yeshua the bridegroom (John 3:29). John baptized (mikveh) to get the bride (Ephesians 5:25-33) ready for the Bridegroom. God calls Himself the husband of Israel...but the marriage covenant they broke. Now (in Jeremiah 31:32) He institutes a new covenant, one that can not be broken. Yeshua institutes it (actually a bethrothal) at the last supper. The cup of wine is accepted. Now we wait for the bridegroom to return for His bride and the marriage supper of the Lamb. 1 Corinthians 15:51-57.

remember, flesh begets flesh and spirit begets spirit...flesh can NOT inherit the Kingdom...Yeshua said you can not see the kingdom unless you are born again

...it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
 
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Guojing

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How often have people been told, "You must be born again?" According to some Bible versions, this is what Jesus said to Nicodemus. There are a few versions that phrase it, "born anew." And other versions phrase it as "born from above." The question is, which phrase is correct? Tradition and the majority position hold that "born again" is accurate. But not all translators agree. Why is this?
"Born again" has a different meaning than "born from above." They both can't be true, which means one is wrong. Does it matter if one is wrong? Does it matter if those who choose the wrong meaning live their lives believing a lie? Does knowing the truth of what Scripture teaches matter? Far too many people don't care what Scripture teaches, basing everything they believe on how their favorite version reads, what their "pastor" says, and what they want to believe.

Deut 29:29 "The secret things belong unto the LORD our God. But the things that are revealed belong to our children and us forever so that we may do all of the words of this law." How has God revealed things to us? Through His written word, known as Scripture. We depend on English translations for those who cannot read the original languages. This means we depend upon the translation we read for our knowledge of Scripture. One would think that any English version of a bible would align with any other English version regarding theology and doctrine, especially with the words of Jesus. Alas, this is not so! There are over 50 versions of the English bible, and no two are alike. How can you know which version to trust? The one part of the study that brings the reader knowledge is finding and defining the original words. This is the only way to determine if your version is correctly translated.

In some cases, the Greek manuscript used for translating is the problem. In this case, the translators are the culprits. The phrase "born again" is found in John 3:3, 7, and 1Pet 1:23. We will look at John first.

In John 3:3, 7, we find two Greek words translated into "born again," gennao anothen. There is no problem with the word gennao. It is a verb that means "born." The word that has been incorrectly translated into "again" is anothen. Anothen means "from above." We also find the Greek word anothen in these verses, John 3:31, 8:23, 19:11, James 1:17, 3:15, 17. In each case, the word is always translated "from above." Anothen is also used in Mat 27:51, Mk 13:58, and John 19:23, translated as "from the top." Anothen has never meant "again!" The Greek word, translated 138 times into the word "again" is palin. If Jesus had said "born again" to Nicodemus, the Greek text would read gennao palin! There is no doubt about this.

In 1Pet 1:23, "born again" doesn't come from two separate Greek words but a single Greek word, anagennao. You can clearly see the word gennao. The Greek prefix ana comes from ano. Ano means "above" or "top." It does not mean again! I encourage everyone to check these things out for themselves! Is it strange that the phrase "born again" is translated from gennao anothen in John and anagennao in Peter?

I will cut the original translators of the KJV a little slack. The first KJV wasn't a new translation, as some believe, but rather a revision of the Bishop's Bible. They were limited on the number of Greek texts available and relied heavily on the Textus Receptus and Jerome's Latin Vulgate, both of which had errors. They translated it as "born again" because that is how the Vulgate read. There weren't oceans of information about the Greek language we have now. Still, when it became easier to define Greek words, every single version created since the information was available should read "born from above!" The NKJV and the KJV21 still use the phrase "born again!" They have no excuse.

You can understand John's specific emphasis on being born again, as inextricably linked to Israel's relationship with God.

Their father, Abraham, was barren. Naturally, at his ripe old age, he could no longer have children.

God had to supernaturally intervene in his life to enable him to give birth to Issac.

Thru Issac, thru Jacob, thru his 12 sons, the nation literally came into existence.

Exodus 4:22 had a very insightful verse about this

And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

This was reinforced in Jeremiah 31:9

9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

God considered Israel his first born son. They literally became a nation when God supernaturally rescued them from Egypt, separating the waters in the ocean until all of them literally cross over the water in dry land.

But as we all know, Israel broke their covenant of Law that was given at Mount Sinai. They killed or ignored all the prophets that God repeatedly sent to them when they were separated into 2 kingdoms and went into captivity under Babylon, and then under Persia.

Jesus used the parable of the tenants, one of my favorite parables to understand his first coming on Earth to Israel, in all 3 synoptic gospels. (Matthew 21:33-46; Mark 12:1-12; Luke 20:9-19) to illustrate this.

When Jesus and the 12 were preaching from Matt-John, they need to repent of rejecting God their Father in the OT, and believe in his Son is their promised King and Messiah, as foretold by their prophets.

God had mercy on them even when they killed his prophets (e.g. 2 Chronicles 24:20-22; Jeremiah 26:20-30; cf. Luke 13:34; Acts 7:52)., and is now sending his very own Son to Israel, to do a final persuasion to Israel to repent and believe in him.

If they do, as Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3, Israel will be born again.
 
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GenemZ

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How often have people been told, "You must be born again?" According to some Bible versions, this is what Jesus said to Nicodemus. There are a few versions that phrase it, "born anew." And other versions phrase it as "born from above." The question is, which phrase is correct? Tradition and the majority position hold that "born again" is accurate. But not all translators agree. Why is this?
"Born again" has a different meaning than "born from above." They both can't be true, which means one is wrong. Does it matter if one is wrong? Does it matter if those who choose the wrong meaning live their lives believing a lie? Does knowing the truth of what Scripture teaches matter? Far too many people don't care what Scripture teaches, basing everything they believe on how their favorite version reads, what their "pastor" says, and what they want to believe.

Deut 29:29 "The secret things belong unto the LORD our God. But the things that are revealed belong to our children and us forever so that we may do all of the words of this law." How has God revealed things to us? Through His written word, known as Scripture. We depend on English translations for those who cannot read the original languages. This means we depend upon the translation we read for our knowledge of Scripture. One would think that any English version of a bible would align with any other English version regarding theology and doctrine, especially with the words of Jesus. Alas, this is not so! There are over 50 versions of the English bible, and no two are alike. How can you know which version to trust? The one part of the study that brings the reader knowledge is finding and defining the original words. This is the only way to determine if your version is correctly translated.

In some cases, the Greek manuscript used for translating is the problem. In this case, the translators are the culprits. The phrase "born again" is found in John 3:3, 7, and 1Pet 1:23. We will look at John first.

In John 3:3, 7, we find two Greek words translated into "born again," gennao anothen. There is no problem with the word gennao. It is a verb that means "born." The word that has been incorrectly translated into "again" is anothen. Anothen means "from above." We also find the Greek word anothen in these verses, John 3:31, 8:23, 19:11, James 1:17, 3:15, 17. In each case, the word is always translated "from above." Anothen is also used in Mat 27:51, Mk 13:58, and John 19:23, translated as "from the top." Anothen has never meant "again!" The Greek word, translated 138 times into the word "again" is palin. If Jesus had said "born again" to Nicodemus, the Greek text would read gennao palin! There is no doubt about this.

In 1Pet 1:23, "born again" doesn't come from two separate Greek words but a single Greek word, anagennao. You can clearly see the word gennao. The Greek prefix ana comes from ano. Ano means "above" or "top." It does not mean again! I encourage everyone to check these things out for themselves! Is it strange that the phrase "born again" is translated from gennao anothen in John and anagennao in Peter?

I will cut the original translators of the KJV a little slack. The first KJV wasn't a new translation, as some believe, but rather a revision of the Bishop's Bible. They were limited on the number of Greek texts available and relied heavily on the Textus Receptus and Jerome's Latin Vulgate, both of which had errors. They translated it as "born again" because that is how the Vulgate read. There weren't oceans of information about the Greek language we have now. Still, when it became easier to define Greek words, every single version created since the information was available should read "born from above!" The NKJV and the KJV21 still use the phrase "born again!" They have no excuse.


Its interesting how Nicodemus, who spoke the same language as Jesus, understood it to mean "born again."
Why else would he have made the silly mistake of referring to reentering his mother's womb?

If it meant, "born from above"? Nicodemus would have not spoken of his mother's womb.
 
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Dahveed

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Its interesting how Nicodemus, who spoke the same language as Jesus, understood it to mean "born again."
Why else would he have made the silly mistake of referring to reentering his mother's womb?
If it meant, "born from above"? Nicodemus would have not spoken of his mother's womb.
Paul expounds it concisely in 1 Cor 15:44-53 There is a natural body, of human origin there is also a spiritual body, the new birth in Christ.

For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body [spiritually renewed together in Christ]—1 Cor 12:13
We, who are many, are one spiritual body, for we all share the living bread. 1 Cor 10:17 Where Christ is all, and is in all. Col 3:11
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Paul expounds it concisely in 1 Cor 15:44-53 There is a natural body, of human origin there is also a spiritual body, the new birth in Christ.
Where Christ is all, and is in all. Col 3:11
The spiritual body is after we are raised. Not now. We are now in the physical body (as Paul explains).
 
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GenemZ

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Paul expounds it concisely in 1 Cor 15:44-53 There is a natural body, of human origin there is also a spiritual body, the new birth in Christ.
Where Christ is all, and is in all. Col 3:11 We, who are many, are one spiritual body, for we all share the living bread. 1 Cor 10:17

You are going off into an entirely different aspect of what happens to Christians after they leave this earth.
Born again is about being given a human spirit so that our soul can function spiritually alive.

Born again is not only for the church age believer.

For Jesus was telling Nicodemus that he, as a Jew, needed to be born again!
Jesus was not telling Nicodemus how to become a Christian which only could happen after Jesus had ascended to heaven and was glorified.

Moses who never became the Bride of Christ (church) was born again. Born again!
Moses was able to become the man of God he became as a Jew who was made spiritually alive.

The difference?

God had His Spirit in the OT indwell the Temple. Now? For the Christian? The Holy Spirit indwells the believer's body!
But, that's another story. Being born again means simply to be given a human spirit to make our souls spiritually capable.
Before you were born again you were without a human spirit. You were spiritually dead until you were born again.

May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through.
May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming
of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thessalonians 5:23​

Man who is not born again consists of only body and soul. No human spirit = spiritually dead.

grace and peace ..................
 
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Dahveed

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Paul expounds it concisely in 1 Cor 15:44-53 There is a natural body, of human origin there is also a spiritual body, the new birth in Christ.

For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body [spiritually renewed together in Christ]—1 Cor 12:13
We, who are many, are one spiritual body, for we all share the living bread. 1 Cor 10:17 Where Christ is all, and is in all. Col 3:11
The spiritual body is after we are raised. Not now. We are now in the physical body (as Paul explains).
That is precisely why it is imperative that you be born again. John 3:3 John 3:7
God sent His Son to save the world through Him. John 3:17-18 Whoever has the Son has life; 1 John 5:12
No! You are going off into another aspect of what happens to Christians after they leave this earth.
Test yourselves whether you are in the faith. Do you not understand that Jesus Christ is in you? 2 Cor 13:5
Born again is not only for the church age believer.
For Jesus was telling Nicodemus that he, as a Jew, needed to be born again!
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. Eph 3:6
 
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