No that should not be clear to anyone.
Gxg started out saying "There was a fascinating review I came across last year that stood out for me when so many were claiming that Muslims universally had no place within U.S. history...". After I made my comment
After I made my comment he edited his OP to say things such as "This is not a thread about discussing the negatives of Muslims in America if only wanting to highlight moments of violence." It's been long enough I don't know in what other ways he may have edited the OP, but I remember that much. And yes, I highlighted a moment of violence (before he said that). I did so because it was pertinent. His OP, though long and a bit rambling on other things, was about Islam in American history. My words: "My first real notice of Islam in American history was the knocking down of the Twin Towers in NYC." This is factual and dispassionate truth, and I'm sure it speaks for
Actually....
I am saddened to see the resistance to addressing what the OP has always said....As it seems you again chose to do falsehood, since it was already noted that you both ignored what was in the FIRST posting - and it is not really that difficult to address. The FIRST posting in this thread started out with "There was a fascinating review." In order to claim anything was started out After you made a comment, you would have had to be the first one to make the OP.
You didn't - so please do not even try acting such. Moreove
r, the OP ALWAYS said the thread's focus was directly on discussing the positives of Muslims within the history of America - from Muhammad Ali to Black slaves and many others. You avoided those outright AND you avoided the initial article discussing wh
at the FOUNDING Fathers said on Muslims since that was the focus.
The argument you attempted fails since it avoids 2 things:
- Claiming "He edited the topic AFTER I commented" fails to show where an edit happened on the topic itself and it was IMMEDIATELY stated in the second posting what the focus was...seen in Jun 16, 2016#3. ...when I noted the contributions of Islam to the U.S via Black Muslims for centuries. You argued against it despite not being the author of the OP/knowing the thread intent......and when the OP was brought up/cited point for point, you skipped.
- Claiming "He edited the topic AFTER I commented" is an attempt to STILL avoid the topic itself of the thread when the thread has been clear on the discussion and you already claimed your bias in saying Anything positive about Muslims is simply "propaganda" - as expressed when you later stated "If you only wanted to hear positive propaganda you should have said that" .(http://www.christianforums.com/thre...competition-with-islam.7952001/#post-69755292 )...meaning you ONLY wanted to discuss the negatives and claim that's all Muslims are (hasty generalization). So it is a moot point discussing you wanted history. It was never a thread focusing on the tendency you have on only wanting to discuss why you disliked Islam - it was focusing on things others have done in the Muslim world which we can appreciate and you chose to come into a thread dedicated to that to be intentionally against pertinent discussion.
Claiming the CENTER point of the thread of focusing on positives was somehow added in is a red herring since the focus was already clear in the main article referenced from the beginning. Falsely claiming something was added in is false since you failed to even deal with what was said directly multiple times before you even posted. Respectfully, If you're going to do a falsehood, again, there are better ways to go about it. Especially when it was so easily able to be called out due to the avoidance of what was said plainly.
The first posting has always sai the following:
There was a fascinating review I came across last year that stood out for me when so many were claiming that Muslims universally had no place within U.S. history - even going so far as to say that it was never the case that Muslims did significant things to help the U.S. or had any presence within the U.S. H
As said there in the article when it comes to the history of Muslims within the U.S. (as seen in
Donald Trump vs. the Founding Fathers on Muslims Coming ... - Truthdig ) for a brief excerpt:
.:
....More can be said besides that - and for anyone interested, there was a fascinating review I was very glad for that I appreciated - as seen here:
And for anyone taking seriously the history of slavery in the U.S. Nation, there's an extensive history of Black Muslims who endured much from others, ironically in a nation many claimed was Christian when so much of it was opposite of Christ.
The FIRST article in the thread for discussion was
Donald Trump vs. the Founding Fathers on Muslims Coming ... - Truthdig. Despite the protests/rants you gave on the thread, you never even touched that in a thread focused on the positives of Muslims ....you never addressed it when it came to what the
Founding Fathers said on Islam and Muslims....or what the history was for Black Muslims in the U.S.. Moreover, as the thread was discussing the history of Muslims in the U.S in regards to slavery, you ignored plainly the context of that post from the start since it was stated directly what the topic was about - as said right after the main article:
And of course, as noted before directly, the main purpose of the thread was said from the jump in the same FIRST post as stated here:
At the end of the day, I am wondering why there has often seemed to be so many stereotypes of Muslims as if they've never been involved in significant developments within the history of our own nation. I do hope that anyone choosing to enter into this thread would be willing to do so in order to deal with the subject of showing how not all stereotypes about Muslims are true. The goal of the thread is simple discussion on how Muslims simply impact all of us in everyday life in positive ways we're rarely aware of it....and have noted how often the things said about them are not
consistent with Muslim communities in how they live life - and for the many amazing and beautiful Muslims around the world and in our nation, it is a privilege to honor them for their sacrifices and all they do.....'
....if anyone has any thoughts about the practice of Islam within America and American religion, I'd love to hear thoughts. This is not a thread about discussing the negatives of Muslims in America if only wanting to highlight moments of violence. It is also NOT a thread for any bashing of Muslims - just as it is NOT a thread for any bashing of Christians. It is a thread for discussing positive contributions of Muslims within the history of the U.S., their experiences as discussed by the Founding Fathers, and addressing why people TODAY seem ignorant of what the Founders have said on Muslims.
It was said directly: "
I do hope that anyone choosing to enter into this thread would be willing to do so in order to deal with the subject of showing how not all stereotypes about Muslims are true. The goal of the thread is simple discussion on how Muslims simply impact all of us in everyday life in positive ways we're rarely aware of it....and have noted how often the things said about them are not consistent with Muslim communities in how they live life - and for the many amazing and beautiful Muslims around the world and in our nation, it is a privilege to honor them for their sacrifices and all they do.....'"
Claiming otherwise on your part showed a commitment to wrangling since it was blatantly against what was stated IN the OP on discussing positives.
Posting a negative comment saying all Muslims can be summed up by 9/11 is NOT dealing with the history of Muslims in the U.S. - and thus, your comment was hardly pertinent. It was and is STILL no different than someone saying you as an Orthodox Christian are defined by the Bosnian Genocide because Orthodox Christians participated in massive killing of Muslims and that is therefore the history of the entire camp. The Bosnian genocide consisted of three specific groups: Bosnian Serbs (Orthodox Catholic Christians), Bosniaks (Sunni Muslims), and Bosnian Croats (Roman Catholic Christians), (Genocide-Bosnia) - and following communist leader, Josip Tito, a new leader by the name of Slobodan Milosevic, a Serbian, rose up in the 1980's and had a vision was for the Serbians who were Orthodox Catholic Christians to be the dominant religion in every area or country they made up....leading to the genocide of THOUSANDS OF Muslims.
Again,
For historical demonstration, we also have one of the most brutal acts of Christian terrorism that is often overlooked. ...That is the Bosnian Genocide, which refers to the attempted annihilation of Muslims by Christian Serbs in former Yugoslavia from about 1992-1995. Bosnian Serbs killed more than 8,000 Muslim men and boys, as well as the ethnic cleansing of another 25,000–30,000 refugees, in and around the town of Srebrenica in Bosnia and Herzegovina in what is now referred to as the Srebrenica massacre (
http://endgenocide.org/learn/past-genocides/the-bosnian-war-and-srebrenica-genocide/ ). It is highly unfortunate to witness how when Bosnia attempted to secede, Serbia – under Slobodan Miloševic’s leadership – invaded with the claim that it was there to “free” fellow Serbian Orthodox Christians living in Bosnia.
--"Genocide in Bosnia - Holocaust Museum Houston" (
https://www.hmh.org/la_Genocide_Bosnia.shtml )
-"Bosnian Genocide « World Without Genocide - Working to Create a WORLD Without Genocide" (
http://worldwithoutgenocide.org/genocides-and-conflicts/bosnian-genocide )
The Srebrenica massacre is the largest mass murder in Europe since World War
Then we also have the extensive amount of Anti-abortion groups who are known to kill as well. As an example, in November 2015, Robert Lewis Dear killed three and injured nine at the Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado Springs, Colorado (
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/20...parenthood-shooter-was-a-christian-terrorist/ ) - "The history of anti-abortion terrorism in the United States" (
http://www.dailydot.com/politics/history-anti-abortion-terrorism-violence-united-states/ )
If that isn't enough, I'll raise you one: We can also deal with the Dutch Reformed in South Africa when seeing the ways that they treated those who were Indigenous to the land and call them Cannanites. We already see where the Dutch Calvinists - especially in places like South Africa - were EXTREMELY uncomfortable with racial diversity (due to the Eurocentric focus) and we know what came of that when seeing the history of treatment with blacks in South Africa.since the Dutch - like the Puritans - have seen South Africa as a promised land, a New Jerusalem...
-"APARTHEID IN SOUTH AFRICA: CALVIN'S LEGACY?" (
https://www.ucumberlands.edu/downloads/academics/history/vol3/BlakeWilliams91.htm )
--"CALVINISM AND APARTHEID: THE DEVELOPMENT OF AFRIKANER NATIONALISM" (
https://pseudointellectualchat.word...eid-the-development-of-afrikaner-nationalism/ )
And for others in the U.S, we can see people such as the Branch Davidians (as with Koresh ) and others like the KKK which were condoned in the U.S for an extensive amount of time, in addition to other groups that were openly promoting segregation and enforcing that through violence (from lynching to mob beatings - be it on black people or whites supporting them - and many other things).
In addition to this, we can also examine the history of groups who claimed to represent Christ such as Mormons.....groups which have been noted to be semi-Christian even though there is an extensive history of violence in the camp. One hundred fifty years ago, the U.S. Army marched into Utah prepared to battle Brigham Young and his Mormon militia which did damage to countless people after harming others:
-"The Brink of War | History | Smithsonian" ( The Brink of War | History | Smithsonian ) (
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-brink-of-war-48447228/?no-ist )
-"Utah War 1857-1858: Mormon Militarism & the War for Deseret " ( The Warfare Historian: Utah War 1857-1858: Mormon Militarism & the War for Deseret )
(
http://warfarehistorian.blogspot.com/2012/07/conflicts-you-should-know-utah-war-1857.html )
-Mormon war on Native Americans (Black Hawk War between Natives and Mormons) - YouTube (
)
A lot of that is simply a reflection of Manifest Destiny - connected with American Exceptionalism ideals that often justified eradication of minority groups in the name of God condoning it. . This is similar to what happened with the Puritans when they came over (at least in certain camps) when they initially came over and later felt it was God's calling for them to treat Native Americans an
d Blacks in negative ways because of God backing it (even though other Puritans felt otherwise ) - more shared in
Utopian Promise as well as
Perry Miller's "Errand into the Wilderness
And those were not even the full instances of history where people claiming Christ led the way with doing harm. The same can be said of American history with Jim Crow in the South and many other points. That does not define all Christians thankfully - but to insist that it does would be disrespectful. Lynchings, bombings of Black churches, beatings/mob violence - these have happened since the Founding Fathers to African Americans by people claiming Jesus.....but again, that doesn't define all of them.
And if someone said "Lets discuss the positive history of Christians in America" in a thread dedicated to that, it would be taken disrepsectfully for you to come in and say "I remember the slave days!!" and say that defined them all. It would show you don't really care to discuss HISTORY.
We can go down the list starting with the group you refuse to deal with as it concerns the KKK and its history claiming Christ and yet doing acts of violence (
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-cia-the-kkk-and-the-usa/21463 ) ....
The KKK have had a long history in the South and we'd be foolish to ignore that. And to be clear, many of the white supremacist groups in the US are united under the banner of “Christian Unity,” while the Ku Klux Klan website claims that its “better way” is “the Christian way.” (
http://www.kkk.com/). According to David Schanzer and Charles Kurzman’s recent article in the New York Times, a study produced by the US Military Academy’s “Combating Terrorism Center” at West Point counted an average of 6 terrorism-related plots per year carried out by Muslims since 9/11....which resulted in a total of 50 fatalities. However, the same study found that right-wing extremists averaged 337 attacks per year, causing a total of 254 fatalities (
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/16/opinion/the-other-terror-threat.html )...
The KKK was 'Christian' only in the sense that they claimed Christ even though everything else they did was on the basis of abusing scripture - no different than many of the Reformers and many others (
http://41.media.tumblr.com/4fa7af7a0e4d0ddce1c7df9a319cd788/tumblr_nic3f5nKlX1s7e5k5o1_500.jpg ) / ( ). Klansmen were Protestants, but they could not be described exclusively or even predominantly as fundamentalists. In reality, their religious affiliations mirrored the whole of white Protestant society, including those who did not belong to any church, according to the boo
k The Rise of the Ku Klux Klan. So, anyone who was not a Protestant was not welcomed. And this history is not forgotten by Black Christians in the U.S when it comes to seeing the KKK today or their history......and why others don't have a problem with them and yet try to separate their imagery from what they did in the name of Christ.
The same could be said of Andrew Jackson, who sanctioned the extermination of Native Americans - others being shocked at the acts of ISIS - and yet seeming to say that nothing occurring in U.S history was ever on the same level when it comes to people we have made patriots of. Being Afro-Hispanic myself, to see times in history where the U.S has literally burned others on crosses (or lynched) in the name of Christ (as occurred often during Jim Crow and the KKK - with a basic example among many thousands of others being the charred corpse of Will Brown, Omaha, NE, after being killed, mutilated and burned by a white mob )or the many acts of dehumanization done to people in other nations at the approval of America when it comes to U.S Imperialism IN THE NAME of our "Christian Nation", we choose to minimize it in the name of "We didn't know better" but then try to excuse our inconsistency with others in the name of saying "They believed that and so do the rest - all others not violent like them are not true Muslims!!!"
Outside of the KKK doing the same as certain Muslims did in violent cases, We can also deal with several other groups besides that claiming Christ (
http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-po...ristian-terrorist-groups-you-never-hear-about ). The LRA is a good start.
For reference:
--" The Lord’s Resistance Army (LRA) is a Christian Fundamentalist terrorist group originally from Uganda, but now active in the Sudan, the Central African Republic, and other places. Uganda, you may remember, is a hotbed of Christian Fundamentalism, so it makes sense that a group who calls themselves “Christianist” would come from the country. The LRA surfaced in the popular conscious sometime ago when Joesph Kony suddenly became a meme on the internet; up to that point, their main claim to fame is child sex slaves and children soldiers. Indeed, the LRA is known to orchestrate kidnappings, railroading young boys into fighting while forcing young girls into sexual slavery. Those who refused to fight were hacked to pieces. The young girls are forced to be “brides” for the soldiers, and thus helping to spread HIV. They’re especially brutal towards civilians, as well, wiping out entire villages and attacking refugee camps."The goal of the LRA is pretty straight froward: they want a Bible-based state that uses the Ten Commandments as guide posts." ( )
-"Lord's Resistance Army (LRA) - GlobalSecurity.org" (
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/lra.htm )
-"The Lord's Resistance Army: The US Response - Federation of American Scientists" (
https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/R42094.pdf )
If one wishes to keep up with the LRA today, one can go to "LRA Crisis Watch" (
https://lracrisistracker.com/ ) to keep track of their activities....within the last month alone abductions and killings have occurred sadly. The documentary Invisible Children (
) also does excellent documenting of their activities.
There's also the violence of the Christian groups like Anti-balaka against Muslims, which rose to a crescendo in the Central African Republic in February 2014, when the country’s first Muslim leader, Michel Djotodia, was forced to step down after taking power in a coup:
-"Tens of thousands of Muslims flee Christian militias in Central African Republic" (
https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...1adbb2-9032-11e3-84e1-27626c5ef5fb_story.html )
-""France and the Militarization of Central Africa: Thousands of Muslims Fleeing the Central African Republic"" (
http://www.globalresearch.ca/france...-fleeing-the-central-african-republic/5369276 )
-"Christian threats force Muslim convoy to turn back in CAR exodus" (
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/14/muslim-convoy-central-african-republic-exodus )
Historically, some members have forcibly converted Muslims to Christianity:
-" "‘A Question of Humanity’: Witness to the Turning Point In Central African Republic"" (
http://time.com/42131/anti-balaka-central-african-republic/ ). We already see where in 2014, Amnesty International reported several massacres committed by anti-balaka against Muslim civilians, forcing thousands of Muslims to flee the country.
Besides that, We can also start here as it concerns the U.S and the Cartels. People forget that a drug cartel inspired by Christianity, which calls itself the Knights Templar, is the newest cartel in the Mexico drug war (
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Amer...el-beware-Mexico-strikes-deal-with-vigilantes ) - from last year alone.
At the end of the day, none of those things would be a discussion of the POSITIVES of Christians - and if there was a thread stating plainly "We're here to focus on the POSITIVES of Christians", bringing that up would be OFF topic for the thread.
That is the bottom line with what your comment on 9/11 was really about since it avoided the history of positives of Muslims. Whether you want to deal with the topic doesn't change what it was. Again, your comment
was disrespectful and intentionally avoiding the topic.
And as the author of the OP, I know what the topic was about/stated such - both in the TITLE and the CONTENT when clarifying on it. You avoided it e
ach time and that's not surprising when you came in avoiding dealing with the history of Muslims in the U.S since the Founding Fathers.
Unfortunately, you made random comments about rappers doing terrorism universally and several other off-topic points do not change where the topic of discussion was clear and it seemed evident you were trying to derail a thread - in addition to showing a lack of awareness on racial issues since the focus was on Blacks in the history of America who were Muslim.
The show
ROOTS with Levar Burton - for anyone taking seriously the history of Slavery in America and its impacts on Blacks - understands this when it comes to the many Muslims who were beaten/mistreated as African Americans.
When there is a topic on the issue and someone chooses to be involved who does NOT care about slavery in America done to Blacks (or has a serious lack of understanding/interaction with Black culture) I expect avoidance of the topic to occur. Sadly, in your cases, this is more than evident.
IMHO, The bottom line is that since there is evidently some racial issues on your part that you are unable to deal with in the thread, it was chosen to derail it. Both derailing and showing disrespect for African-Americans and Blacks in slavery are unacceptable - and as said before, any further derailing/off-topic comments are simply reported since it was requested respectfully to either deal with the topic as written or be respectful in not commenting off topic.
Disrespecting racial issues is not acceptable, especially when it disrespects a lot of Americans in this nation whose ancestors were a part of the nation's founding and were Muslim. It does dishonor to the Muslims who helped Black and Hispanic Christians in the U.S. fight for freedom during the Civil Rights era - and who helped out communities during the era of Jim Crow and earlier. It also ignores the many Muslims/Christians together who were Black in the 70s/many periods before (including those who were VETERANS in the U.S. Army) condemning violence wherever it was found - be it in places with Radial Islam (apostate in Islam) overseas or the ways that the U.S. has participated in GLOBAL terrorism via gun running, proxy wars, toppling of governments, CIA, USING Child soldiers and many other things in the name of God repeatedly.
Because you don't even deal with Muslims in the Founding Father's era or Black slaves who were Muslims and helped others find freedom, it is rather evident you were never concerned with even dealing with any real notice of Islam's involvement in American history. And this thread was focused squarely on the positives Muslims have been to America.
Speaking past that intentionally (after the topic has been clarified several times) is derailing - so as said before, please be respectful.