Biblical truth and a spirit of unbelief

[Halbhh]

I agree with you, BUT there is a remaining question of whether or not someone truly has faith in Christ Jesus if they knowingly hear his words and ignore them or deny them.

Amen,
A good place to stop and focus on what really matters!

Christ Himself, our Lord, said precisely the most key things we must do -- from His own words to us, in the 4 gospels accounts. His instructions.

What He says are the things that matter (His choice, not ours).

Clear and direct words.

He said requirements of us, and what makes or breaks us, for instance very clearly in Matthew chapter 7, but not only there -- His words (not our own reasoning about other stuff, like doctrine about how to think of the flood).

Nothing else is important compared to His instructions. We learn as we read what He said in the gospels.

So, yes, there are key things that do matter -- that is correct -- and Christ says what they are, and the epistles expound on them.

So, if you want to find all the things that really matters for us in the Life or Death way -- keeping or losing eternal Life -- those things are all entirely in the New Testament.

(it's fine for a believer that has finally read 100% of the new testament to also read in the old testament, and I have more than once through fully (every bit), but it's not primary, it's secondary for us compared to the new testament)

 

[lifepsyop]

i read the verses i didn't see where Peter directly warns of people denying things in the future? did i miss something in the verses.

Peter's 2nd letter is all about establishing the truth of the past judgments (the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc.) and reminding believers of the future judgment of the world in the Day of the Lord. He directly links these to a denial of God's word which establishes the truth of both.

This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. - 2 Peter 3:1-7

 

[lifepsyop]

I've not seen anyone saying they are a believer and also claiming God didn't make that promise to never flood the world again. Is there an instance of someone claiming that you can point to?

You mean besides the millions of professing believers who deny the Genesis flood entirely?

 

[Halbhh]

You mean besides the millions of professing believers who deny the Genesis flood entirely?

Try asking if the person believes God will break the promise after the flood, and i think you'll hear they believe he'll keep it.

 

[BeyondET]

Peter's 2nd letter is all about establishing the truth of the past judgments (the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc.) and reminding believers of the future judgment of the world in the Day of the Lord. He directly links these to a denial of God's word which establishes the truth of both.

This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. - 2 Peter 3:1-7

well i guess doughnuts and computers can be too i assume.

 

[lifepsyop]

Try asking if the person believes God will break the promise after the flood, and i think you'll hear they believe he'll keep it.

I don't understand what you're saying, maybe you could be a little more clear.

Are you saying it's fine to believe in a covenantal promise while disbelieving in the actual events recorded in the Bible which the covenant was based on? For example: believing in God's promise to never again flood the world, while denying He ever judged the world with a flood to begin with?

 

[Halbhh]

Romans 14:1 isn't a suggestion to me,but instead a real instruction.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I have come in my Father's name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him. How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God? Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words? - John 5:43-47

On the topic of Creation and "Theistic Evolution", I've come to understand there is a kind of spirit of unbelief in the church. It involves the way that professing believers tend to 'naturalize' everything, or view it through the lens of materialism, or what is commonly held as an enlightened, intellectual, rational view of the universe, past, present, and future. (e.g. Theistic Evolution)

The apostle Peter connected this disbelief in Biblical history with a disbelief in the coming judgment of the Day of the Lord, when Christ returns to Earth, not as a suffering servant but the conquering King of Kings.

Here is what Peter had to say about it:

This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. - 2 Peter 3:1-7

Interesting how Peter connects these elements of denial.

It seems that the many professing believers who deny Biblical history... (creation, the fall, the flood, the historical Exodus, etc.) ... these same individuals also tend to deny the prophetic "Day of the Lord" (a prophecy of the Messiah's return that makes up roughly a THIRD of the Bible, both the Old and New Testaments, spoken in detail of by the ancient prophets, Jesus himself, and the apostles...)

This kind of disbelief that Peter outlined seems to have the effect of cutting off the truth of both the past and the future, the beginning and the end, the root and the flower, and replacing it with an amorphous, disconnected belief in a Jesus that is not found in scripture.

Isn't this what we see today? Don't those who deny the historicity and the actuality of the past judgment of the worldwide flood, also deny the actuality of the coming judgment in the Day of the Lord? Don't they tend to allegorize both? (this is where you tend to see a lot of Amillenialism and Post-Millenialism beliefs popping up in people's eschatology)

I do not think it is a coincidence that Peter linked these two bookends of unbelief. It is the same scoffing, disbelieving spirit that denies the narrow way of the truth.

The Jesus of the New Testament repeatedly attested to the history of Moses, and spoke in great detail on his future return that would mark the end of this present age. (See Matthew Chapter 24)

As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. - Matthew 24:37-39

Jesus believes in both the days of Noah, and the coming Son of Man.
Why don't we? Why do we bow to the altar of human reasoning and the Evolutionist creation story? Does it make us feel like we have more control over our reality?

Even the Israelites that bowed to the molten calf, claimed to be worshipping the God almighty who brought them out of Egypt. (Nehemiah 9:18) But it wasn't really God the Father. It was something they made with their own hands, because instead of obeying the true God of all creation, they wanted to seize the kingdom for themselves.... not wander through the wilderness under God's complete authority.

I think when we deny both scriptural past, and scriptural future prophecy, we are removing the knowledge of the full dominion that God has over creation. When we allegorize the actual, and reduce it into mere symbolism and metaphor, we inwardly reclaim some form of perceived dominance over our reality. We get some perceived authority back, and we like that, because the Bible teaches us that man has been rebelling against his Creator since the beginning. It's essentially what human civilization is. Rebellion.

Is denying the actuality, the historicity of scripture not some form of rebellion?
"Did God really say?" ....


For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words? - John 5:46-47

And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.” Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. - Revelation 19:9-10

For ears to hear.
Psalm 111:10

I very much agree. I have also noticed that no christian I ever met who has embraced the idea that man evolved slowly over time from a single cell to the current state was a believer mature in faith and understanding. Every believer I ever met who was mature in faith and knowledge and moved in Christ-given authority believed God created Adam, a fully formed human being at once. I think it has to do with believing God instead of popular positions. (The actual scientific evidence for either is equally weak and both require faith.)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I've not seen anyone saying they are a believer and also claiming God didn't make that promise to never flood the world again. Is there an instance of someone claiming that you can point to?

That’s a pretty silly point. No Christian is so foolish as to announce out loud for the church to record that they don’t believe God made a promise the Bible says point blank He made.

 

[Halbhh]

That’s a pretty silly point. No Christian is so foolish as to announce out loud for the church to record that they don’t believe God made a promise the Bible says point blank He made.

Yes, we agree.

And, the mere interpreting of the flood won't save anyone.

The real thing that matters--pointed to in post #21-- is what Christ says matters.

 

[coffee4u]

Yes, we agree.

And, the mere interpreting of the flood won't save anyone.

The real thing that matters--pointed to in post #21-- is what Christ says matters.

John 5:46
For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me.
All of scripture hangs together and he did indeed say that the word of Mosses matters.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

John 5:46
For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me.
All of scripture hangs together and he did indeed say that the word of Mosses matters.

Maybe some said the original words of Moses were inspired but not the Septuagint.

 

[lifepsyop]

Yes, we agree.

And, the mere interpreting of the flood won't save anyone.

The real thing that matters--pointed to in post #21-- is what Christ says matters.

And he said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?” And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.
- Luke 24:25-27

Who wants to be the first to stand before the Lord and explain how supposedly enlightened we humans became by "science", and how we supposedly learned all that stuff with Moses never really happened.

I suspect when our hearts are revealed, it will show not that we were truly convinced of the Evolution narrative by "science", but instead will reveal a hidden love of the world, our wealth or status in the earthly kingdom, and a hidden desire to be respected and praised by people of the world. (The Parable of the Sower)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

And he said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?” And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.
- Luke 24:25-27

Who wants to be the first to stand before the Lord and explain how supposedly enlightened we humans became by "science", and how we supposedly learned all that stuff with Moses never really happened.

I suspect when our hearts are revealed, it will show not that we were truly convinced of the Evolution narrative by "science", but instead will reveal a hidden love of the world, our wealth or status in the earthly kingdom, and a hidden desire to be respected and praised by people of the world. (The Parable of the Sower)

If He doesn’t condemn them for not believing him in the first place. Certainly compromise is not acceptable denying him before man.

 

[Halbhh]

John 5:46
For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me.
All of scripture hangs together and he did indeed say that the word of Mosses matters.

That's right.

No one believes on Christ without believing in God. And therefore the miracles.

In the OP, regardless of what was intended, the sense of it that comes across is a different test/requirement about what is really Christian in a true way, and acceptable to God -- that's the implied claim in the OP as it seems to be saying. (and it matters what the impression is even if that wasn't intended)

But we cannot replace Christ's direct clear instructions to us in the gospels -- direct instructions/commands to us -- with other doctrines as the way to make it.

Not any other doctrine!

Just like the thief on the cross you only ever get saved solely by faith in Christ, and not anything you accomplish on your own.

Not by your own understanding/scripture doctrinal interpretations.

People that don't understand much at all will get to heaven, because they believe and do as Christ said.

Trying to make any other doctrine or idea as important, or even key, such as if someone lines up just right with some particular viewpoint about the Flood details or any other event in the Old Testament (usually not even the full main message in the account!) cannot be the key to salvation, nor gain special emphasis as it got in the OP, because it's not the Good News that Jesus Christ died for our sinfulness, you and me -- our sins -- and rose again, and that through faith in Him only we can be saved (and not by another way, like having doctrine E3 or D5!). That the only way and all we need to be saved is through Christ alone -- with real faith, as evidence by what Christ says is evidence of real faith (again, not other stuff someone comes up with in a new doctrine). Nothing about how to interpret something in a certain preferred way in the Old Testament is ever even 1% a replacement for Christ's Words about what we are to do.

And this is all far more crucial than it might seem.

Many will start out right, but not continue on the narrow path (Matthew chapter 7)

24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”
Matthew 7 ESV
(best by far is to read this full chapter)

It is not your own smarts or reading or perfect knowledge that saves you!

Not those.

It's a pure gift of God that you don't earn, cannot merit. If you get that, then you've heard a central part of the gospel!

'Science' is irrelevant to what I'm pointing out. Real faith is the only way to be saved, and mere knowledge of geology, mechanics, agriculture or whatnot has no bearing in any manner, not even slightly affecting what it takes for you to be saved.

While some scientists will praise God for the wonderous works of His they learn about in the sciences, it will not help them to be saved. Salvation is only through faith in Christ, and nothing else can change that.

And he said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?” And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.
- Luke 24:25-27

Who wants to be the first to stand before the Lord and explain how supposedly enlightened we humans became by "science", and how we supposedly learned all that stuff with Moses never really happened.

I suspect when our hearts are revealed, it will show not that we were truly convinced of the Evolution narrative by "science", but instead will reveal a hidden love of the world, our wealth or status in the earthly kingdom, and a hidden desire to be respected and praised by people of the world. (The Parable of the Sower)

 

[lifepsyop]

I very much agree. I have also noticed that no christian I ever met who has embraced the idea that man evolved slowly over time from a single cell to the current state was a believer mature in faith and understanding. Every believer I ever met who was mature in faith and knowledge and moved in Christ-given authority believed God created Adam, a fully formed human being at once. I think it has to do with believing God instead of popular positions. (The actual scientific evidence for either is equally weak and both require faith.)

But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house.
- Matthew 12:28-29

The Lord laid out the whole dynamic for us. Reality is a conflict between two kingdoms. The kingdom of this world or the kingdom of God. (We know who rules the kingdom of this world because he tried to tempt Jesus by offering it to him.) Jesus came to bind the ruler of this world and plunder his kingdom, (plunder believers), and redeem those who put their faith in Him and turn away from the world.

When we see all the highest institutions of the world all united in the preaching of an Evolutionist worldview that completely cuts off the root and trunk of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and denies the very reality He and his apostles attested to (e.g. the creation and the fall from Eden, worldwide judgment by the flood, the scattering of nations from the tower of Babel, the recorded Exodus from Egypt, etc.) ... I think a person claiming to follow and uphold Jesus as *the truth* has to begin questioning what is really going on in their hearts if they dismiss as fantasy the very foundational worldview espoused by the Lord Himself.

 

[lifepsyop]

That's right.

No one believes on Christ without believing in God. And therefore the miracles.

In the OP, regardless of what was intended, the sense of it that comes across is a different test/requirement about what is really Christian in a true way, and acceptable to God -- that's the implied claim in the OP as it seems to be saying. (and it matters what the impression is even if that wasn't intended)

But we cannot replace Christ's direct clear instructions to us in the gospels -- direct instructions/commands to us -- with other doctrines as the way to make it.

Not any other doctrine!

Just like the thief on the cross you only ever get saved solely by faith in Christ, and not anything you accomplish on your own.

Not by your own understanding/scripture doctrinal interpretations.

Encouraging a belief in the scripture is not teaching another doctrine. It is upholding doctrine. If belief in the scriptures are unimportant, then why do we have them and why did Jesus and the apostles spend so much time exhorting us to take heed and believe in them?

The scriptures are the brick and mortar of the faith. If anything, promoting the idea that belief in them is inconsequential, or that adopting wildly contradictory worldviews has no bearing on the faith... This is much more resemblance of the preaching of another doctrine, no?

The problem is that the church has swung so far into the orbit of "enlightened" Epicurean/Evolutionist worldviews, that doubt of a majority of scripture is viewed as of little consequence, and ironically just basic belief in scripture is viewed as dangerous or as presenting stumblingblocks for others.



...Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,

“He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their heart,
lest they see with their eyes,
and understand with their heart, and turn,
and I would heal them.”

- John 12:39-40

 

[Halbhh]

Encouraging a belief in the scripture is not teaching another doctrine. It is upholding doctrine. If belief in the scriptures are unimportant, then why do we have them and why did Jesus and the apostles spend so much time exhorting us to take heed and believe in them?

The scriptures are the brick and mortar of the faith. If anything, promoting the idea that belief in them is inconsequential, or that adopting wildly contradictory worldviews has no bearing on the faith... This is much more resemblance of the preaching of another doctrine, no?

The problem is that the church has swung so far into the orbit of "enlightened" Epicurean/Evolutionist worldviews, that doubt of a majority of scripture is viewed as of little consequence, and ironically just basic belief in scripture is viewed as dangerous or as presenting stumblingblocks for others.



...Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,

“He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their heart,
lest they see with their eyes,
and understand with their heart, and turn,
and I would heal them.”

- John 12:39-40

Please read further in that post. Even if you skim a bit in the middle, where I did repeat myself (and probably wrote too long).

Maybe I need to rewrite this more clearly, I'm not sure.

 

[Halbhh]

Encouraging a belief in the scripture is not teaching another doctrine. It is upholding doctrine. If belief in the scriptures are unimportant, then why do we have them and why did Jesus and the apostles spend so much time exhorting us to take heed and believe in them?

The scriptures are the brick and mortar of the faith. If anything, promoting the idea that belief in them is inconsequential, or that adopting wildly contradictory worldviews has no bearing on the faith... This is much more resemblance of the preaching of another doctrine, no?

The problem is that the church has swung so far into the orbit of "enlightened" Epicurean/Evolutionist worldviews, that doubt of a majority of scripture is viewed as of little consequence, and ironically just basic belief in scripture is viewed as dangerous or as presenting stumblingblocks for others.



...Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,

“He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their heart,
lest they see with their eyes,
and understand with their heart, and turn,
and I would heal them.”

- John 12:39-40

Here's what I probably should have written, and shorter:


The real way to see if someone is making it, whether they truly believe (in a saving way!) -- according to Jesus Christ our Savior -- is whether they are doing the specific thing (the very particular thing) that Christ Himself says is the way to see whether someone believes.

Since He gave the precise one thing, the real standard, therefore there are not any other tests we devise or come up with on our own, no matter how many scripture verses we use.

So, you or I could say 8 true things from scripture, but those things won't replace the 1 single standard God Himself specified as the standard.

 

[lifepsyop]

Here's what I probably should have written, and shorter:


The real way to see if someone is making it, whether they truly believe (in a saving way!) -- according to Jesus Christ our Savior -- is whether they are doing the specific thing (the very particular thing) that Christ Himself says is the way to see whether someone believes.

Since He gave the precise one thing, the real standard, therefore there are not any other tests we devise or come up with on our own, no matter how many scripture verses we use.

So, you or I could say 8 true things from scripture, but those things won't replace the 1 single standard God Himself specified as the standard.

I understand what you're saying. Even the demons know the scriptures are true. (James 2:19) so salvation by Jesus Christ is more than just belief, it is a humbling repentance and an acceptance of and surrendering to Him as Lord as He ransoms you out of the kingdom of the world by the blood of the cross.

Only God knows our hearts and who has surrendered their life to Jesus. But what does it say about our faith if we disbelieve whatever scripture runs contrary to our modern "enlightened" worldviews? What kind of fruit is that? If we disbelieve the very judgment cast upon this world (the Flood) that Jesus and Peter invoke as a warning for His return?
Is God's judgment upon the world real or not? At some point we have to make up our minds.