Being a Christian vs being Christ-like

[justrobin]

One of the two who heard John speak, and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother. He first found his own brother Simon, and said to him, “We have found the Messiah” (which is translated, the Christ). And he brought him to Jesus. (John 1:40-42)

Andrew brought Peter to Jesus. BTW, this doesn't mean Jesus didn't call Peter. But Peter did apparently come to see Jesus on the word of his brother.

I think this underscores the importance of sharing the Gospel with our loved ones, then our neighbors, then the rest of the world. Since faith comes from hearing and hearing from the Word about Christ, we never know if we might be the vehicle of that call.

Yes.
Let's not sit on our blessed assurance, let's go out and share it with others.
Faith comes by HEARING, not by mental telepathy or osmosis.
and hearing comes by the word of God and this present sinful world desperately needs to hear the word of God, needs salt and light and to know that Jesus really DOES save the sinner!

 

[theDevolutionist]

The problem here is we are not very good judges of ourselves with regard to whether or not we are "truly" saved. I prefer to continue to work out my salvation with fear and trembling, and I shudder when I hear someone proudly and loudly stake their "claim" to salvation, and especially so because so many of them proudly and loudly disobey Jesus on a regular basis.

Okee doke. You go ahead and inspect the agriculture and pull some weeds. I'll stick to farming (hint: Matthew 13).

 

[Caretaker]

The Bible tells me that his Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of the Living God (by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone) and I am more than happy to proclaim that to anyone who will listen because my being saved is not about my own worthiness (because I will forever be unworthy) but about how Jesus is a great Saviour to save a wretch like me.
Can I ask you this- do you KNOW that you are saved? If you died right this moment, do you KNOW where you will spend eternity?

I do, and not because of my sinful (but forgiven) self, but because JESUS SAVES! And his is able to save to the uttermost them that come to him in faith.

You know, if indeed you are truly living in obedience to Jesus (which so many who take the position you take do not), I would not want to take from you what you apparently so desperately want and need: "Blessed Assurance".

But if, on the other hand, you are one of those who imagines he/she can continue to live as a "wretch", in wretched disobedience to the commandments of Jesus, and that you ARE saved simply because you said some magic words, then I am doing you a great favor by helping you to understand that your behavior is not what Jesus said is the type of behavior that demonstrates a true love of Christ.

 

[justrobin]

****Disclaimer: I am not catholic, nor do I uphold any catholic dogmas or traditions as many protestants do.

That being said, the scripture does not say they are HIS sheep. For one, the word "his" was added by the writers, trying to help with the understanding. It was not in the original text. Secondly, it says that he will separate the nations AS a shepherd separates sheep from goats. It does not say that He will separate HIS sheep. This passage is referring to the white throne judgement, in which Jesus' sheep will not be judged, they will be judging with Christ:

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?​

Those who enter into eternity here are certainly those who have done good... but it is not from just being good to anyone like Teresa of Calcutta thought. It is specifically being good to the true believers. It is the way God has always done it regarding His elect:

Genesis 12:2-3 (God's promise to Abraham) And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: 3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.​

Mark 9:41-42 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward. 42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.​

As well as the passage from Matthew 25 that has already been quoted. Those who have been born again bear the spirit of Christ, and make up the body of Christ. So of course, if someone blesses us, they are blessing Christ, which according to scripture, earns them a reward.

​

The end of the passage tells us that the RIGHTEOUS go away to their eternal reward with the Lord. We know that scripture tells man that he is NOT righteous- there is NONE righteous, no, not one. The righteousness that the saved person has, comes not from good deeds, but from God, through Jesus Christ.

The passage reminds them about what they have done (or not done) for Jesus' brethren. And we know that those are they who belong to him, who hear his word and do it.

 

[donfish06]

One of the two who heard John speak, and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother. He first found his own brother Simon, and said to him, “We have found the Messiah” (which is translated, the Christ). And he brought him to Jesus. (John 1:40-42)

Andrew brought Peter to Jesus. BTW, this doesn't mean Jesus didn't call Peter. But Peter did apparently come to see Jesus on the word of his brother.

I think this underscores the importance of sharing the Gospel with our loved ones, then our neighbors, then the rest of the world. Since faith comes from hearing and hearing from the Word about Christ, we never know if we might be the vehicle of that call.

Yes, definitely. But Jesus didn't tell everyone who saw Him to "follow me." He did to Peter as told in Matt. If we are the vehicle of that call, it is not us doing it, but Christ IN us.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I believe a Christian's experience should line up with scripture. We are told at least 4 times that "many believed" Jesus in the book of John. After Jesus started preaching the Word, and they couldn't understand it, all of those many left. The only ones that stayed with Jesus are the ones that He chose. Am I saying that you are not saved? No, I don't even know anything about you except for that you came to God. Jesus said many are called, but few are chosen. To say that everyone comes to Christ because of a need is not true, and not scriptural. It might sound "hard," but what Jesus said to the Pharisees was also hard, and they hated Him for it. But He stuck to the Word, and they stuck to tradition.

It is a long story to tell to really show the whole picture, but He spoke to me in my heart, and instantly my desires and my world changed. I literally left everything to follow Him. I was in a stage where I thought everything outside of Church and the Word was "idolatry," so all I did was read the Bible before word, read it during my breaks, and read it until bed time. This went on for a couple months at least before I realized that I still had a life to live. But I see how it molded me and got me grounded in the Word. When I read of Jesus telling Peter to follow Him, I felt like it was the same thing that happened to me.

Am I saying that you are not saved? No, I don't even know anything about you except for that you came to God.

Well, either what you are saying is true or it isn't. If it is I am not saved. That comment tells me you aren't real sure so, I'll leave you with this following and of course I was being sarcastic with my firs comment to you, just trying to get you to think about that, I have no doubt I'm saved.

But anyway here is this:

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

If someone chooses to tear that one to pieces too (not saying you will, Dog) have at it but it's one of those lovely simple verses that will be tough to change the meaning of....at least on my watch.

 

[theDevolutionist]

Yes, definitely. But Jesus didn't tell everyone who saw Him to "follow me." He did to Peter as told in Matt. If we are the vehicle of that call, it is not us doing it, but Christ IN us.

With this I can agree wholeheartedly I would; however refer you to 1 John 2:2, 2 Peter 3:9, and 2 Timothy 2:1-4, if I am understanding where this is going.

 

[Extraneous]

Paul does say to follow him because he follows Christ. Anyway, i need to go wrap my head around some peace and quiet now.

A lot to chew on.

 

[Caretaker]

Okee doke. You go ahead and inspect the agriculture and pull some weeds. I'll stick to farming (hint: Matthew 13).

OK, so I'll be real direct here (remember, so was Jesus).

This approach of a loud and proud "assurance" of salvation I almost universally hear from those who have no compunction about disobeying Jesus' commandments to love and do good to their enemies. They usually also have little compassion for the weak and downtrodden. In short, the fruit they bear is not the fruit of the righteous, but instead the fruit of the evil one: destruction, death, hatred, and walking by on the far side of the road.

Much better that I strive to continually examine and re-examine myself against the commandments of my Lord and Savior than that I boast falsely about a salvation that is not mine because I have not truly believed in Jesus. True belief in Jesus results in obedience to the commandments of Jesus. That is what God and Jesus tell us. Those who claim salvation while thumbing their nose at the commandments of Christ do not make muster, regardless of how loudly and proudly they boast. That is not my viewpoint. It is what Jesus tells us.

 

[donfish06]

The end of the passage tells us that the RIGHTEOUS go away to their eternal reward with the Lord. We know that scripture tells man that he is NOT righteous- there is NONE righteous, no, not one. The righteousness that the saved person has, comes not from good deeds, but from God, through Jesus Christ.

The passage reminds them about what they have done (or not done) for Jesus' brethren. And we know that those are they who belong to him, who hear his word and do it.

If that is what you think, then you have a contradiction of scripture, because the saints will not be judged. Notice it says that they shall go INTO eternal life, the believer already HAS eternal life. There is a distinction.

Joh_3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh_6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
1Jn_5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.​

They are called righteous because Jesus gave them righteousness for how they treated the Body, but it is not the same righteousness that the believer has. Notice, the "righteous" have NO clue how they fed Jesus when He was hungry. This is people who blessed the Body without knowing it. It cannot be the Body blessing itself, because they would know what they did!

 

[donfish06]

With this I can agree wholeheartedly I would; however refer you to 1 John 2:2, 2 Peter 3:9, and 2 Timothy 2:1-4, if I am understanding where this is going.

Could you elaborate? I am unsure where YOU are going. Lol

 

[Caretaker]

************************

I was saved not because of any "magic words" but because I believed what Jesus said, repented of my sin and put my trust in him to save me....and he did.

If your belief in Jesus is true, then you will obey Jesus' commands. God tells us that through Jesus in John 14.

So, if you find that you are disobeying the commandments of Jesus, then you did not truly believe what Jesus said.

 

[Kenny'sID]

******************
I don't need to read the verses again, I already know what it says. Also, please don't confuse my straightforward tone for being confrontational. I can be a bit blunt and like to get to the point, but it's all just in a conversational tone.

Okay, you seem to have a very Catholic reading of that passage. Can I suggest that you please read it again from the beginning. Firstly, the Lord separates HIS sheep from the goats. He then commends the sheep and condemns the goats. The passage finishes by saying that the RIGHTEOUS will go away into life eternal.

Please, please, don't try to tell me that you believe in works-based righteousness, because I know that we both know that that is NOT what scripture teaches.
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost. Titus 3:5

Since we were never good ENOUGH to be saved in the first place (and never will be), is it truly your contention that we can then become undeserving of that which we didn't deserve to begin with?

The gospel of John tells us that Jesus gives HIS sheep eternal life, and they shall NEVER perish.

The problem today is that so many people who don't know Jesus and have never truly been born again, want to call themselves Christians. Churches are full of them. People who never truly repented to begin with, people who were never born again trusting in Jesus alone to save them.

If you don't think we are saved by works, how is it that you think not doing works can lose you your eternal destiny? (and does that mean that you need to be born again.....again?).

I don't need to read the verses again, I already know what it says. Also, please don't confuse my straightforward tone for being confrontational. I can be a bit blunt and like to get to the point, but it's all just in a conversational tone.

I didn't. I come off a little harsh sometimes because I get a little impatient at some of the stuff I see being taught here, it comes out and not a whole lot I can do about it, it seems. And sometimes I'm just stern out of concern, and yet others I'm sarcastic jackass, all depends on how often or how far I've been pushed, but I'm usually not to the point of angry. Some may take it they caused my reaction and they may have or not, but you did not, not at all. Also when trying to work against the great deception of OSAS, and one can only get negative replies from something like that, that may tend to get to me a little as well, but not that bad, however it may show here and there.

Please, please, don't try to tell me that you believe in works-based righteousness, because I know that we both know that that is NOT what scripture teaches.

As I said in the post to which you replied, we are not saved by works nor faith alone but both, and my scripture teaches just that as evidenced by the Mathew verses I posted. The ones that went to hell didn't do the works Jesus required of them, and the ones that did went to Heaven...very clear. Jesus also stipulated if we love him we will his commandments and since I'm of the school of thought we ARE to love him...well, you get the picture. And of course it all starts with faith and requires that throughout.

 

[donfish06]

Well, either what you are saying is true or it isn't. If it is I am not saved. That comment tells me you aren't real sure so, I'll leave you with this following and of course I was being sarcastic with my firs comment to you, just trying to get you to think about that, I have no doubt I'm saved.

But anyway here is this:

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

If someone chooses to tear that one to pieces too (not saying you will, Dog) have at it but it's one of those lovely simple verses that will be tough to change the meaning of....at least on my watch.

You also have this, though:

Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
​

You must balance scripture with scripture. There are no discrepancies in the Bible, only in our carnal thinking It is clear from these as well as other scriptures, that for someone to "call upon the name of the Lord," they would have had to have been called, or "drawn."

 

[Caretaker]

*************************************
I don't understand what you are saying. Are you saying that you're just not sure if you have believed Jesus or not? Or do you think you have to be good enough to be saved? How long have you been on this merry-go-round? I'm not saying that we shouldn't be examining ourselves because we should be, but I examine my life and my thoughts and my motives and my relationship with Jesus BECAUSE I am not saved, not because I am uncertain of my eternal destiny.

?? ... because you are not saved .... ????

 

[Caretaker]

Of course. If we truly LOVE Jesus, we will obey him....but what saves us is not how well we obey, but whether we have truly been born again in the first place.

We planted a mango tree in the back yard. I did not have to explain to the mango tree how to produce mango fruit- it is in the nature of the mango tree to produce mango fruit. Now, if I go out in the back yard and there are lemons on the tree, then it cannot be a mango tree. I can claim it is a mango tree until the cows come home and it will always produce lemons and make a liar out of me. Now, the relationship with Jesus that you have if you have TRULY been born again will determine HOW MANY mangoes might be on the tree, but won't change what kind of fruit the tree produces, because if we are abiding in the True Vine then we will produce the fruit of a saved life, the fruit of righteousness. How much fruit will be determined by how obedient we are- thirty fold, sixty fold, a hundred fold....lets work for a hundred fold. Not to make us saved but because we ARE saved.

But remember that Jesus tells us plainly that there are many who imagine they are saved when they are not (Matthew 7).

One of the toughest tests (similar in some ways to the test Jesus gave the rich young ruler) is militarism. How is it possible to love and do good to one's enemies while blowing them and their families to smitherines?

Read Mark Twain's War Prayer here: http://warprayer.org/

 

[theDevolutionist]

OK, so I'll be real direct here (remember, so was Jesus).

This approach of a loud and proud "assurance" of salvation I almost universally hear from those who have no compunction about disobeying Jesus' commandments to love and do good to their enemies. They usually also have little compassion for the weak and downtrodden. In short, the fruit they bear is not the fruit of the righteous, but instead the fruit of the evil one: destruction, death, hatred, and walking by on the far side of the road.

Much better that I strive to continually examine and re-examine myself against the commandments of my Lord and Savior than that I boast falsely about a salvation that is not mine because I have not truly believed in Jesus. True belief in Jesus results in obedience to the commandments of Jesus. That is what God and Jesus tell us. Those who claim salvation while thumbing their nose at the commandments of Christ do not make muster, regardless of how loudly and proudly they boast. That is not my viewpoint. It is what Jesus tells us.

Really?

"But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world." (Galatians 6:14)

And yet, Paul found himself doing what he willed not and not doing what he willed and concluded that he was filled with all kinds of covetousness and wretched (Romans 7) and therefore rejoiced that there is no condemnation for those in Christ (Romans 8).

This is the problem with this line of thinking. You want to set up a standard, but the only standard is Christ. The more you know Him, the farther from the standard you realize you are. Yes the Christian matures and those around him or her may see them looking more and more like Christ, but the irony is, as they mature, they will likely see themselves as farther from the standard as they see more and more of what is inside.

Introspection was never meant to provide the Christian with assurance based on their work - it was meant to cause the Christian to rely more and more upon the finished work of Christ.

 

[theDevolutionist]

But remember that Jesus tells us plainly that there are many who imagine they are saved when they are not (Matthew 7).

One of the toughest tests (similar in some ways to the test Jesus gave the rich young ruler) is militarism. How is it possible to love and do good to one's enemies while blowing them and their families to smitherines?

Read Mark Twain's War Prayer here: http://warprayer.org/

But the ones who imagine that they are saved are the ones who call Jesus Lord and do many wonderful things in his name. Or the Pharisee who credits God with his personal growth and righteousness and thanks Him for it.

Instead it is the tax collector (thief) who throws himself simply on God's mercy that walks away justified.

 

[Caretaker]

Really?

"But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world." (Galatians 6:14)

And yet, Paul found himself doing what he willed not and not doing what he willed and concluded that he was filled with all kinds of covetousness and wretched (Romans 7) and therefore rejoiced that there is no condemnation for those in Christ (Romans 8).

This is the problem with this line of thinking. You want to set up a standard, but the only standard is Christ. The more you know Him, the farther from the standard you realize you are. Yes the Christian matures and those around him or her may see them looking more and more like Christ, but the irony is, as they mature, they will likely see themselves as farther from the standard as they see more and more of what is inside.

Introspection was never meant to provide the Christian with assurance based on their work - it was meant to cause the Christian to rely more and more upon the finished work of Christ.

I didn't set the standard - Jesus did (in John 14, among other places).

By their fruit we know them (Matthew 7).

Anyone who ignores the words of Jesus subjects himself to judgment.

 

[Caretaker]

The whole world is full pf people who imagine they are saved and are not. According to some statistic I read recently, most of North America think they are Christians.
A very sad situation.

Exactly.

We are instructed to preach and teach, but by the example of Jesus' instructions to his disciples, at some point we are also to shake the dust off our sandals if God's word is being rejected.