Baptist Persepctives On the Church and Israel

[FaithfulPilgrim]

One of the big controversies within Christianity today is the relationship between Israel and the Church. I want to know what my fellow Baptists believe about this.

There seem to be two prevalent views: The dispenasational view and the replacement view.

According to dispensationalism, the church and Israel are separate entities and God has different roles and purposes for each one. If I understand the dispensational view correctly, the formation of the state of Israel is a fulfillment of biblical prophecy and Israel will eventually be saved.

In the replacement view, the church is Israel. I honestly do not know as much about this view.

I have seen scriptural support from both sides, though I am under the impression that the replacement view came about because people were tired of waiting for the nation to be refounded and starting interpreting it differently.

So what do you believe?

 

[miamited]

Hi spock,

My understanding is that Israel is Israel. They were a people raised up by God to do His bidding upon the earth, but they were rarely ever particularly faithful to His commands and desires for them. Even against those odds, God did work through them to bring to the world His Scriptures and His Son to provide atonement for sin. God is on record that Israel is still loved by Him and that He will be merciful to them when the last days come.

The 'church', on the other hand, is the 'church'. It is the number of people living on the earth at any given time who are true, born again believers. Israel and the 'church' are separate entities in God's great plan. However, God's word is true! He has caused to be written to us that there is no salvation except through His Son and so I firmly believe that a time is coming when God will turn them back to the truth. As the Scriptures declare, their hardened hearts are due in part to allow for the times of the Gentiles to be fulfilled. So, God is still working with Israel, but the time for their hearts to be turned to Him is not yet.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[twin1954]

One of the big controversies within Christianity today is the relationship between Israel and the Church. I want to know what my fellow Baptists believe about this.

There seem to be two prevalent views: The dispenasational view and the replacement view.

According to dispensationalism, the church and Israel are separate entities and God has different roles and purposes for each one. If I understand the dispensational view correctly, the formation of the state of Israel is a fulfillment of biblical prophecy and Israel will eventually be saved.

In the replacement view, the church is Israel. I honestly do not know as much about this view.

I have seen scriptural support from both sides, though I am under the impression that the replacement view came about because people were tired of waiting for the nation to be refounded and starting interpreting it differently.

So what do you believe?

First of all you present a false dilemma. You infer that there is only the Dispensational view and replacement theology but that is not the case. Covenant theology is not replacement theology. The church didn't replace Israel. Those who believed and looked forward to Christ in Old Testament were a part of the church and the Israel of God. Gal. 6:16. Old Testament Israel was a type and picture of the true Israel, the spiritual Israel, and the church didn't replace it but is the true fulfillment of the type.

Covenant theology views the Scriptures as a progressive revelation of the Covenant of Grace also known as the Everlasting Covenant of Peace. Before the foundation of the world the three persons of the Godhead entered into an everlasting Covenant ordered in all things and sure. In it the Father chose a people to be the objects of His great love and mercy and gave them to the Son as their Surety. The Son agreed to do all that was required to bring them into peace with God and redeem them by His blood paying all that they owed. The Spirit agreed to make that salvation effectual in the hearts of all that the Father had given and all whom Christ had redeemed. God first revealed it in Gen. 3:15 when He declared that the Seed of the woman would crush the head of the Serpent and again when He killed a lamb and clothed the pair with its skin. God shed the first blood by a substitutionary sacrifice. Each covenant that we read of in the Old Testament was a little bit clearer revelation of that one eternal covenant of grace which in the New Testament is called the New Covenant. The covenant God made with Adam being the first followed by the Noahtic covenant, the Abrahamic Covenant, the Mosaic Covenant and the Davidic Covenant. Each reveals the New Covenant in some way which it would take too long to explain here. Needless to say that the church existed in Old Testament Israel and was revealed in the New Testament spiritual Israel.

(Rom 9:6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

(Rom 2:28) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

(Rom 2:29) But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

[Goodbook]

I am not really on either side because the dispy view has things wrong with it and the replacement view also has shortfalls.

Christians, both jew and gentile, are grafted in to israel. Perhaps study the olive tree in the bible...Paul uses this imagery to explain how christians are the new growth from the wild olive tree. While the israelites were broken off, they can be grafted in again.

I cannot fully explain all Gods purposes but it is going to happen on His timing so we cant hurry it up, like some believers think we can. I can tell you that God has not forgotten Jerusalem though, and she is the apple of Gods eye.


As far as I know baptists are not staunch zionists, well, not in my church. But i have attended a presy church and some of them were very into everything israel was doing. I think if you have a hebrew background perhaps youd have more insight but the ones I talked to whod been to israel told me that the jewish people there werent very open to the gospel. Also, the way theyve treated the palestinieans is not in keeping with the bibles exhortations to be kind to the stranger and foreigner in their lands. Its hard to be a christian in the holy land unless you have a lot of money and go on those tour things.

The above is just my view please dont take it as a firm position on either theological side I still need to study the Bible what it says on this.