Back and forth: yes/no?

Daphnia

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ok, brace yourselves, there is going to be a lot of text in this thread.

So I'm a 24-year-old girl currently living and studying in Germany. I was born in a church-going family, went to a christian school and was raised according to christian (protestant) values. However, about almost 2 years ago I found out that I'm not a believer yet. So now I'm faced with the question of whether I want to be a believer, be a true christian, accept Jesus, or not. And I have a lot of questions. Some of them I can ask my friends in church who are pretty mature already in their faith or our pastor's wife, but some of them are too embarassing for me to ask them. So I'm hoping that here - with the anonymity of the internet, since it's not likely that I'll meet any of you in real life - I can get the answers of those questions that I dare not ask my church friends. I'm really sorry if this makes someone feel uncomfortable. I really need some answers.

First of all, I guess I have to introduce myself.
Knowledge-wise, I think I know a lot already when it comes to Christianity and what the Bible says about stuff. I've been attending Sunday schools ever since I can remember, joined in church ministry, talked about Jesus, prayed for other people, shared, gave people advices, be a part opf bible study groups, basically all things Christian. All this without knowing why or what makes someone a Christian. When I arrived in Germany, I found out through a Bible Study that there are two types of sins: the original sin from Adam and Eve, and the sin that we make daily. And in order to be a Christian, we should bring ALL our sins to God and ask for his forgiveness and invite him to live in us in our hearts as a savior and God (which makes us His slave). Because our little church in Germany allowed only true Christians to participate in ministry and because my parents wanted me to keep on doing ministry, I decided to do THE PRAYER and do all of the above (ask God for forgiveness, and so on...). But after about 2 years I couldn't fool my Chirstian sisters in church. It is said that someone's life and character would change gradually once one accepts Jesus, but it was apparent to them that mine didn't. I knew it as well, but I decided to ignore it and chose the comfort zone. But when a Bible Study group member mentioned it and asked me about it, I couldn't deny it anymore. So I started asking myself whether my faith was true or false. Eventually I came to a conclusion that I didn't say THE PRAYER for the right reasons and without really thinking about it. So I'm still not saved.

Now that I'm faced with the question of whether or not I want to accept Jesus and be His follower, I have the opportunity to really think about it, because I don't want to make the wrong desicion again. So despite all that I've learned about the Bible, I have some questions or thoughts. (Sometimes I think that maybe it would be better if I could just erase everything I knew about Christianity and basically start over like a blank piece of paper.)

So here it goes:
1. One of the things that makes me reluctant to just say "Yes" to accepting Jesus in my life is the fact that a Christian's life is full of struggles. I've been watching and hearing stories from our Bible study group members (who are all believers, I'm the only non-believer) how hard it is for them to fight against themselves and their will and do what God wants them to do. And when I thought I'd believed, I had fought against my own self as well, and tried to do God's will. And man, it was exhausting. So I'm reluctant to go through that again. As a non-believer, I can do pretty much whatever I want, as long as the community accepts it. I can yell at someone if I'm mad, for example, without thinking about sins or losing the salvation.

2. A church friend once said that our lives is like a 4-foot rope. she colored one inch from one end of the rope with black and said that our lives in this earth is just this black part of the rope. The rest is eternity. She then asked the question "which would be better, struggle in the short end of the rope, but have eternal life for the rest of it; or have fun and live as we like in the short end of life but be burned in hell for the rest of it?" At that point I thought, But what if the rest of the rope (eternity) doesn't exist? What if life is just this, what we now have on earth? I mean, it's not like someone's crossed to eternity and came back and said "yeap, it exists, people!" I considered the logical thing would be for me to accept God anyway and struggle for the short life on earth, and if eternity doesn't exist, well it won't hurt and if it does, I'm on the safe side. But that would be a desicion made from my rationality, from my brain, not my heart. I don't think that would be right and I don't think that I would be a good Christian if I'd made the desicion based on what my brain says.

3. Coming from a "Christian" family and a country where free premarital sex is pretty much still a taboo, and for thinking I've been a believer all this time, I'm still a virgin at age 24. I've never had a bf, because I just don't fall for someone that easily, and well, I thought I was a Christian, so I was picky and didn't let myself fall for a non-believer. So I think I want to have a little "fun" first and enjoy the wildness of my age, you know, before deciding to accept Jesus and have to live in celibacy. This is actually the topic that I was reluctant to talk to my church sisters about, because even though they might understand it, it's just embarassing, especially we all come from the same culture and I don't know what they would think about me if I tell them this. maybe they'll judge, maybe they won't. but I'm not taking a chance. So I'm asking you guys now, because I see that a lot of people here come from cultures where premarital sex is completely ok and telking about sex is not awkward or taboo. Has anyone ever had the same thought before they decide to become a Christian?

4. Those 3 points are the things that made me reluctant to say "yes" to accepting Jesus. On the other hand, I also want to say "yes". Reason is: God's been really good to me, especially lately. When I had no money and had no idea how I was going to make rent for next month, God provided me with a job - just in time, not too soon, not too late. Second, he didn't let me stray too far from the church life. Apparently I'm not the first person in our church who made the same mistake of thinking they are a Christian already when they actually aren't. And most of these people end up leaving the church and spending their wekends doing God-knows-what. So if I still go to church every weekend, and am still trying to find answers, it's only because God is still giving me a chance. I mean, he could just let me get hit by a car and said, "That's it. your time's up." So I'm really thankful.

5. My friends from our Bible Study group often share their experiences with God, how he helped them, how amazing it feels when they first accepted Jesus in their lives, how amazing it is to have a close and personal relationship with God. I want to experience the same thing too. But the 3 points above have been keeping me from making the decision.

So that's all my points for now, I guess. Boy, that's long *rubs neck*
I've been back and forth between wanting to and not wanting to be a Christian and live according to the Bible. I thank anyone in advance for replying and answering some questions, or sharing their thoughts and helping me to make a decision.
 
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God's Word

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Hi, Daphnia.

Daphnia said:
1. One of the things that makes me reluctant to just say "Yes" to accepting Jesus in my life is the fact that a Christian's life is full of struggles. I've been watching and hearing stories from our Bible study group members (who are all believers, I'm the only non-believer) how hard it is for them to fight against themselves and their will and do what God wants them to do. And when I thought I'd believed, I had fought against my own self as well, and tried to do God's will. And man, it was exhausting. So I'm reluctant to go through that again. As a non-believer, I can do pretty much whatever I want, as long as the community accepts it. I can yell at someone if I'm mad, for example, without thinking about sins or losing the salvation.

Are you suggesting that a non-believer's life isn't "full of struggles", too? It is. Oh, I recognize that you're specifically talking about "struggling" against sin, but what's the alternative? Embracing it? You mentioned how accepting Jesus as your Lord and Saviour would make you His "slave". What about being a "slave" to sin?

John 8:31-36

"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."

You're either going to be Christ's "slave/servant" or the "slave/servant" of sin. There's no other option.

Romans 6:16-23

"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants unto uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

You're either going to remain a "servant to sin" or you're going to fully commit yourself to Jesus Christ and become a "servant to righteousness". Of course, as we just read, this can only be made possible if you truly "obey from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you." In context, Paul had just finished speaking about our individual needs to have our "old man crucified with Christ" or to put to death our old manner of living by truly repenting of our sins and embracing what Jesus Christ did for us on the cross of Calvary. Paul continued on to stress the importance of being "baptized into Christ's death" or continuing on with the rite of water baptism which signifies our old nature being buried with Christ that we might be raised up in newness of life via the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit of God. This is what the Bible calls being "born again". Whereas we once yielded our members as instruments/servants to sin, we now need to yield them unto God.

Daphnia said:
2. A church friend once said that our lives is like a 4-foot rope. she colored one inch from one end of the rope with black and said that our lives in this earth is just this black part of the rope. The rest is eternity. She then asked the question "which would be better, struggle in the short end of the rope, but have eternal life for the rest of it; or have fun and live as we like in the short end of life but be burned in hell for the rest of it?" At that point I thought, But what if the rest of the rope (eternity) doesn't exist? What if life is just this, what we now have on earth? I mean, it's not like someone's crossed to eternity and came back and said "yeap, it exists, people!" I considered the logical thing would be for me to accept God anyway and struggle for the short life on earth, and if eternity doesn't exist, well it won't hurt and if it does, I'm on the safe side. But that would be a desicion made from my rationality, from my brain, not my heart. I don't think that would be right and I don't think that I would be a good Christian if I'd made the desicion based on what my brain says.

I actually agree with you that your decision should be based on a lot more than just your rationale. Christianity isn't just some sort of "argument" that we embrace. Christianity must be a vital relationship between the individual and Christ Himself...a relationship where the individual's body literally becomes the temple of the Holy Spirit and the "two become one". Such a relationship needs to be initiated by the very wooing of the Spirit Himself. Jesus said:

John 6:44

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Again, we read:

I Corinthians 12:3

"Wherefore I give to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."

"Arguments" are fine, but they're simply not enough. Oh, they can certainly provide "the seed" by which the Holy Ghost will move upon someone or convict them, but the Holy Ghost definitely needs to be involved in the situation. I once read a tract by a man who lived centuries ago entitled "The dangers of delaying repentance". In that tract, he spoke of two different men who were in two different types of boats. The first man was in a rowboat and he pretty much charted his own course, in his own timing and in his own strength. The second man was in a sailboat and he was totally reliant upon the wind. In scripture, the Holy Ghost is ofttimes likened to "the wind" (see John 3:1-10, for example). When coming to God, we really don't get to "chart our own course" or "choose our own timing" or "come in our own strength". No, rather, we need to come when the Spirit woos us to come. If we continually miss such Divine appointments, then there's simply no guarantee that other appointments will come.

Daphnia said:
3. Coming from a "Christian" family and a country where free premarital sex is pretty much still a taboo, and for thinking I've been a believer all this time, I'm still a virgin at age 24. I've never had a bf, because I just don't fall for someone that easily, and well, I thought I was a Christian, so I was picky and didn't let myself fall for a non-believer. So I think I want to have a little "fun" first and enjoy the wildness of my age, you know, before deciding to accept Jesus and have to live in celibacy. This is actually the topic that I was reluctant to talk to my church sisters about, because even though they might understand it, it's just embarassing, especially we all come from the same culture and I don't know what they would think about me if I tell them this. maybe they'll judge, maybe they won't. but I'm not taking a chance. So I'm asking you guys now, because I see that a lot of people here come from cultures where premarital sex is completely ok and telking about sex is not awkward or taboo. Has anyone ever had the same thought before they decide to become a Christian?

That "little fun" that you mentioned was also addressed in the same aforementioned tract. The author spoke of those who lived their lives to the full and then somehow thought that they would come to God with their "dregs" at the end of their lives. Many people aren't even given the chance to do so and, even if they were, why should the very God Who created you be pleased with such? As I type, I have a bumper sticker on one of my vehicles which reads, "Many who plan to seek God at the eleventh hour die at 10:30". Also, we're back to the same scenario we were at in your first point. In other words, what makes you think that pre-marital sex necessarily equates with "a little fun"? I've known plenty of people who have suffered IMMENSELY from such "fun". You know, jilted hearts, sexually transmitted diseases, unwanted pregnancies, guilt, shame...even suicide.

Look, the fact that you're even on this forum, and I thank God that you are, is evidence that God is presently striving with you via His Spirit. Like I said, we can only come to Him when He calls. My advice to you would be to take your questions directly to Him. Afterall, since He's the One Who is calling you, He's also the only One Who will ever be able to truly satisfy you. In the interim, I'll certainly do whatever I can to help you. Thanks for sharing with us.
 
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Emmy

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Dear Daphnia. In Mathew, chapter 22, verses 35-40: Jesus tells a Lawyer: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself." We start by treating all we know and all we meet, as we would love to be treated. That is not too hard, that is life. People will treat us, as we treat them. God will see our sincere efforts, to be kind and friendly, to give a helping hand, (if needed) and to be a good neighbour.
We know that Jesus will give us His Love and Joy, and the Holy Spirit will give us His Love, also: Jesus told us to: " ask and ye will receive," then we share all Love and Joy with all around us. That may be a bit strange at first, But Love is a Christian`s strong weapon, it conquers all, and changes all: enmity into friendliness, and disinterest or even dislike, into smiles and feelings of well-beings.
We might stumble and forget, but then we ask God to forgive us, and God will forgive us, as we will forgive others. God is Love, Daphnia, and God wants loving and caring children/sons and daughters. Let us become loving and caring, and Jesus will give us " life abundant." ( He promised while on Earth) I say this with love. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
 
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Chany

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Hello, I'm here to help. I'm a recent convert, so maybe I can help you with accepting things.

To question one-

Your not the only one with issues. I'll be the first to admit that I struggle and fail with this issue. However, I am not distraught. Like anything in the world, good changes do not happen overnight. Many of the people we consider religious or holy have been driving for it their entire lives. So don't think, "this is hard, I can't do it," because anything worth it in life is hard. Take little steps, and eventually they'll add up. And, of course, I'm sure anybody you know and anybody on the site would be willing to help.

To question two-

Think about what you are saying for a moment. It is not very good to make logical decisions based upon feelings or emotions. Is it smart to say, "2 plus 2 is... wait, let my heart decide?" Likewise, is it wise to say, "You've angered me, so I'm gonna... wait, let my heart decide?" No, of course not. Do not make decisions with your heart, but rather with your mind.

You seem to also doubt the existence of God. Allow me to present the argument of why there is a God:

Take our universe. According to science, our universe had a beginning; there was a time when the universe did not exist. Everything in our universe had a beginning and comes from something else. As an atheist, you believe that the universe somehow created itself out of nothing, which is pure logical fallacy. Something cannot will itself into existence; that's simple logic. Since we know our universe is finite, their must be a cause for it- something outside and independent of it. We often call this being God.

Now, the next question is, "who created God?" When we ask this question, we open up something called a infinite regress. Let's say, because I'm awesome:cool:, I created God. Then we'll ask, "what created me?" My parents. Who created my parents? Their parents. Who created them? Their parents.

As you can see we'll keep on asking this question until we reach our conclusion: there must be a beginning that simply always was. It is uncaused. It must be infinite, or always existed. There must be an end. Otherwise, we'll keep on saying, "then who created this?" to everything in the sequence.

This argument was written in much more detail, albeit harder language, by Saint Thomas Aquinas in his Summa Theologica. Look it up on the site newadvent.org for the actual translated text (disclaimer: it's a Roman Catholic site, so everything else on it is obviously pro-Catholic). It's pretty abstract and difficult to grasp (it took me about two months to fully understand), so don't feel overwhelmed by it. I know I did. I'm sure many of the people on the site aware of it, including myself, would be more than happy to answer further questions.

To question three-

Don't be fooled by the appeal of sin, especially sex. I'm also a virgin, so I can only say from what I witnessed from other people and my own nasty sexually-related habits which still haunt me.

It leaves you completely empty inside. It isn't fun; it creates worthlessness and guilt to anyone with half a mind. Most of the people supporting this culture are mega-atheists who believe we're nothing more than animals and don't have any sense of true morality at all. Almost all unmarried, sexually-charged relationships I've seen have ended horribly. Also, most guys in these types of relationships don't care anything about the women they "love." Women are nothing more than objects.

Don't fall for the media's and pop culture's interpretations on morality- they're lying. Remember, think with your mind and feel with your heart: not the other way around.

To question four-

Congratulations, you are questioning your faith and beliefs. This is not bad. I've heard people comment that converts, especially atheists, are among the most devout Christians out there. Why? They know what it's like to not have God. Do not take your faith for granted. Question it, and you'll often discover that your faith will come back stronger than before. Just don't go overboard.

Also, remember that simply going to church every week does make anyone a true Christian. It helps, but ultimately you must try to be as Christ-like as possible.

To question five-

Remember your friends aren't the only ones who want you to be happy in God. Hope to see you one the site sometimes ;). If you have anymore questions, we're always here for you.

Good luck, and may Christ guide you to Him.
 
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Daphnia

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Thanks everyone for replying.


To God's Word:
Are you suggesting that a non-believer's life isn't "full of struggles", too? It is. Oh, I recognize that you're specifically talking about "struggling" against sin, but what's the alternative? Embracing it? You mentioned how accepting Jesus as your Lord and Saviour would make you His "slave". What about being a "slave" to sin?

John 8:31-36

"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."

You're either going to be Christ's "slave/servant" or the "slave/servant" of sin. There's no other option.

You have a point there. I guess if you're living in sin, you just don't realize that you're a servant/slave to sin. Thank you for reminding me. And yes, I was talking about struggles against sin or against our own will (vs. God's will). It just seems so exhausting.

I once read a tract by a man who lived centuries ago entitled "The dangers of delaying repentance". In that tract, he spoke of two different men who were in two different types of boats. The first man was in a rowboat and he pretty much charted his own course, in his own timing and in his own strength. The second man was in a sailboat and he was totally reliant upon the wind. In scripture, the Holy Ghost is ofttimes likened to "the wind" (see John 3:1-10, for example). When coming to God, we really don't get to "chart our own course" or "choose our own timing" or "come in our own strength". No, rather, we need to come when the Spirit woos us to come. If we continually miss such Divine appointments, then there's simply no guarantee that other appointments will come.

This is exactly why I am on this forum. Because it's been 2 years since I relaized that I'm not a believer, and to be honest, I've done almost nothing to find out more about God or to find answers. And although it is God alone who in the end would bring me to Him, it is my decision to make, whether I want to come to him or not. Part of why I haven't been more keen on finding out and searching God is laziness, because I feel comfortable being a sinner, just being who I am, not having to fight against my own self; part of it is not being sure if I wanted to really become a true Christian. How did you make your decision? Was there a moment where (for example like my church friend) you were reading the Bible and suddenly one verse really speaks to you and made you restless afterward? or how was it? I'd love to hear your story.


To Emmy:
Dear Daphnia. In Mathew, chapter 22, verses 35-40: Jesus tells a Lawyer: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself." We start by treating all we know and all we meet, as we would love to be treated. That is not too hard, that is life. People will treat us, as we treat them. God will see our sincere efforts, to be kind and friendly, to give a helping hand, (if needed) and to be a good neighbour.
We know that Jesus will give us His Love and Joy, and the Holy Spirit will give us His Love, also: Jesus told us to: " ask and ye will receive," then we share all Love and Joy with all around us. That may be a bit strange at first, But Love is a Christian`s strong weapon, it conquers all, and changes all: enmity into friendliness, and disinterest or even dislike, into smiles and feelings of well-beings.
We might stumble and forget, but then we ask God to forgive us, and God will forgive us, as we will forgive others. God is Love, Daphnia, and God wants loving and caring children/sons and daughters. Let us become loving and caring, and Jesus will give us " life abundant." ( He promised while on Earth) I say this with love. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

To be honest, I don't see your answer relating to my points/questions. Maybe I just don't understand what you mean and why you picked those verses, but they seem to be random to me. I was raised in a church-going community and have participated in Bible study groups. I know that God is Love and that He loves me too, at least in my brain I know. whether it's gotten to my heart or not, I don't really know.


To Chany:
Hello, I'm here to help. I'm a recent convert, so maybe I can help you with accepting things.
Congratulations on your conversion (grammar??)" And thank you for your willingness to help.

Your not the only one with issues. I'll be the first to admit that I struggle and fail with this issue. However, I am not distraught. Like anything in the world, good changes do not happen overnight. Many of the people we consider religious or holy have been driving for it their entire lives. So don't think, "this is hard, I can't do it," because anything worth it in life is hard. Take little steps, and eventually they'll add up. And, of course, I'm sure anybody you know and anybody on the site would be willing to help.
I'm not saying that it's too hard or something, because as my church friends have told me and as the Bible says, the Holy Spirit will be there to help believers in this matter. I just think that it would be really exhausting to constantly deny yourself and everytime you want something, you ask "is this what God wants from me?" and in the end, not being able to do what you want. The girls from our Bible study group told me not to worry about this, that I should just not worry about what struggles awaits me when I decide to believe, but rather focus on believing itself. But I can't help but feel this dread, you know, like everytime I feel like I want to believe, I always think of the constant self-denial and then I would go back to not being sure I want to go through all that. maybe I'm just too comfortable being a sinner, being in "the comfort zone", I don't know.

Think about what you are saying for a moment. It is not very good to make logical decisions based upon feelings or emotions. Is it smart to say, "2 plus 2 is... wait, let my heart decide?" Likewise, is it wise to say, "You've angered me, so I'm gonna... wait, let my heart decide?" No, of course not. Do not make decisions with your heart, but rather with your mind.
But I don't think that deciding whether or not to be a Christian is something logical. Because Christianity is not logical, is it? You don't believe because it makes sense or is acceptable to people's logic thinking, you believe because you (want to) believe in something. Ànd from what I hear from the believers in my church and from our fellow CF member, God's word, (and I think this is the best way to describe Christianity) Christianity is a relationship between an individual and God. And I don't think it's good if the decision to be in the relationship was made based on logical thinking. supported by, yes. But imho, the heart should make the major decision.

You seem to also doubt the existence of God. Allow me to present the argument of why there is a God:

Take our universe. According to science, our universe had a beginning; there was a time when the universe did not exist. Everything in our universe had a beginning and comes from something else. As an atheist, you believe that the universe somehow created itself out of nothing, which is pure logical fallacy. Something cannot will itself into existence; that's simple logic. Since we know our universe is finite, their must be a cause for it- something outside and independent of it. We often call this being God.
Honestly yes, when i was a teenager, the questions of whether God really exists had crossed my mind. But then I studied biology in college for one and a half years and dissecting things under the microscope and learning about all those creatures made me think: there's no way evolution did this. There must be a creator, a mastermind, someone who is wonderful and brilliant and complicated who created such complex sturctures that all functions properly (ex: the human body). So I believe in creation, not evolution. And I guess by now I believe there is a God, because I can see his works through the nature (and maybe also his blessings in my life). but eternity?

Don't be fooled by the appeal of sin, especially sex. I'm also a virgin, so I can only say from what I witnessed from other people and my own nasty sexually-related habits which still haunt me.

It leaves you completely empty inside. It isn't fun; it creates worthlessness and guilt to anyone with half a mind. Most of the people supporting this culture are mega-atheists who believe we're nothing more than animals and don't have any sense of true morality at all. Almost all unmarried, sexually-charged relationships I've seen have ended horribly. Also, most guys in these types of relationships don't care anything about the women they "love." Women are nothing more than objects.

Don't fall for the media's and pop culture's interpretations on morality- they're lying. Remember, think with your mind and feel with your heart: not the other way around.
I don't want to start doing one night stands or something (imagine the STDs going around, ewww), I just feel like... as a virgin at age 24, I feel so naive because I have almost no real dating experience. I just wanted to be like everybody else. You're only 17 yourself, you know how it is to want to be "normal" people.. (I used " " because it is normal for the world, although not for God) It's like: if you know you're about to be locked up in your room for a long time, what I wanted was to walk around and take a look at the world before getting in my room and close the door and not come out until God knows when. Is it wrong to want this?


To all:
So I thank you again for all your replies. And if it's not a problem to you, I would really love to hear how you made the decision to accept God's love and salvation in your lives. You know, that BIG MOMENT. You can tell it here, or PM me, maybe it would help me.
 
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God's Word

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Daphnia said:
How did you make your decision? Was there a moment where (for example like my church friend) you were reading the Bible and suddenly one verse really speaks to you and made you restless afterward? or how was it? I'd love to hear your story.

Hello, again. I posted a short version of my testimony last July, so I'll just repost it here and then answer any questions that you might have in regard to it.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7580041-2/#post58124275

God's Word said:
Well, I was basically a lying, thieving, drunken, drug-taking, compulsive gambler. And those were my good points. In the midst of all of my rebellion, I had God striving with me every day by His Spirit...to the point where the last thing that I did every night was to kneel down by my bed and pray. I knew that I was wicked, but I really didn't know anything else. It all came to a head when I tried to get one of my friends off of cocaine and actually wound up joining him in his addiction (though not nearly as deeply as he was involved). I wound up in the back of an ambulance, being raced to the hospital. It took the doctors 5 hours (nitroglycerin pill, etc.) to get my heartbeat back to normal. From what they told me, my heart was beating at 180 beats per minute...I think that 60 beats per minute is normal. Obviously, I lived. At that time, I actually wore a dangling gold cross earring in my left ear. I remember clinging to it the whole time during my ordeal. It was the only "Christ" that I knew then. Shortly thereafter, I was at work one day and a co-worker asked me, "What's that golf ball on your neck?" I went to the men's room and there was this golf ball sized growth on my neck that just appeared out of nowhere. I had a terrible fear of being beheaded my whole life (I literally slept on my back, with a pillow on my chest, covering my neck, for most of my life up to this point), so anything involved with my neck scared the hell out of me. At this point, my mother asked me if I would go to church with her to speak with somebody. I met with an associate pastor who told me the basics about Jesus and I readily accepted Him as my Lord and Saviour. I've never looked back and that was many, many years ago. The "golf ball"? It turned out to be a fatty tumor. It literally appeared overnight. In fact, it didn't appear overnight. It wasn't there when I left for work that morning, but it was there later that day. I'll take it as a little "push" from God. It certainly led me in the right direction...TO THE CROSS OF JESUS CHRIST.

The real key to my testimony is that GOD was striving with me every day by His Spirit and it was His call that I ultimately answered and have never regretted.
 
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bling

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ok, brace yourselves, there is going to be a lot of text in this thread.

So I'm a 24-year-old girl currently living and studying in Germany. I was born in a church-going family, went to a christian school and was raised according to christian (protestant) values. However, about almost 2 years ago I found out that I'm not a believer yet. So now I'm faced with the question of whether I want to be a believer, be a true christian, accept Jesus, or not. And I have a lot of questions. Some of them I can ask my friends in church who are pretty mature already in their faith or our pastor's wife, but some of them are too embarassing for me to ask them. So I'm hoping that here - with the anonymity of the internet, since it's not likely that I'll meet any of you in real life - I can get the answers of those questions that I dare not ask my church friends. I'm really sorry if this makes someone feel uncomfortable. I really need some answers.

First of all, I guess I have to introduce myself.
Knowledge-wise, I think I know a lot already when it comes to Christianity and what the Bible says about stuff. I've been attending Sunday schools ever since I can remember, joined in church ministry, talked about Jesus, prayed for other people, shared, gave people advices, be a part opf bible study groups, basically all things Christian. All this without knowing why or what makes someone a Christian. When I arrived in Germany, I found out through a Bible Study that there are two types of sins: the original sin from Adam and Eve, and the sin that we make daily. And in order to be a Christian, we should bring ALL our sins to God and ask for his forgiveness and invite him to live in us in our hearts as a savior and God (which makes us His slave). Because our little church in Germany allowed only true Christians to participate in ministry and because my parents wanted me to keep on doing ministry, I decided to do THE PRAYER and do all of the above (ask God for forgiveness, and so on...). But after about 2 years I couldn't fool my Chirstian sisters in church. It is said that someone's life and character would change gradually once one accepts Jesus, but it was apparent to them that mine didn't. I knew it as well, but I decided to ignore it and chose the comfort zone. But when a Bible Study group member mentioned it and asked me about it, I couldn't deny it anymore. So I started asking myself whether my faith was true or false. Eventually I came to a conclusion that I didn't say THE PRAYER for the right reasons and without really thinking about it. So I'm still not saved.

Now that I'm faced with the question of whether or not I want to accept Jesus and be His follower, I have the opportunity to really think about it, because I don't want to make the wrong desicion again. So despite all that I've learned about the Bible, I have some questions or thoughts. (Sometimes I think that maybe it would be better if I could just erase everything I knew about Christianity and basically start over like a blank piece of paper.)

So here it goes:
1. One of the things that makes me reluctant to just say "Yes" to accepting Jesus in my life is the fact that a Christian's life is full of struggles. I've been watching and hearing stories from our Bible study group members (who are all believers, I'm the only non-believer) how hard it is for them to fight against themselves and their will and do what God wants them to do. And when I thought I'd believed, I had fought against my own self as well, and tried to do God's will. And man, it was exhausting. So I'm reluctant to go through that again. As a non-believer, I can do pretty much whatever I want, as long as the community accepts it. I can yell at someone if I'm mad, for example, without thinking about sins or losing the salvation.

2. A church friend once said that our lives is like a 4-foot rope. she colored one inch from one end of the rope with black and said that our lives in this earth is just this black part of the rope. The rest is eternity. She then asked the question "which would be better, struggle in the short end of the rope, but have eternal life for the rest of it; or have fun and live as we like in the short end of life but be burned in hell for the rest of it?" At that point I thought, But what if the rest of the rope (eternity) doesn't exist? What if life is just this, what we now have on earth? I mean, it's not like someone's crossed to eternity and came back and said "yeap, it exists, people!" I considered the logical thing would be for me to accept God anyway and struggle for the short life on earth, and if eternity doesn't exist, well it won't hurt and if it does, I'm on the safe side. But that would be a desicion made from my rationality, from my brain, not my heart. I don't think that would be right and I don't think that I would be a good Christian if I'd made the desicion based on what my brain says.

3. Coming from a "Christian" family and a country where free premarital sex is pretty much still a taboo, and for thinking I've been a believer all this time, I'm still a virgin at age 24. I've never had a bf, because I just don't fall for someone that easily, and well, I thought I was a Christian, so I was picky and didn't let myself fall for a non-believer. So I think I want to have a little "fun" first and enjoy the wildness of my age, you know, before deciding to accept Jesus and have to live in celibacy. This is actually the topic that I was reluctant to talk to my church sisters about, because even though they might understand it, it's just embarassing, especially we all come from the same culture and I don't know what they would think about me if I tell them this. maybe they'll judge, maybe they won't. but I'm not taking a chance. So I'm asking you guys now, because I see that a lot of people here come from cultures where premarital sex is completely ok and telking about sex is not awkward or taboo. Has anyone ever had the same thought before they decide to become a Christian?

4. Those 3 points are the things that made me reluctant to say "yes" to accepting Jesus. On the other hand, I also want to say "yes". Reason is: God's been really good to me, especially lately. When I had no money and had no idea how I was going to make rent for next month, God provided me with a job - just in time, not too soon, not too late. Second, he didn't let me stray too far from the church life. Apparently I'm not the first person in our church who made the same mistake of thinking they are a Christian already when they actually aren't. And most of these people end up leaving the church and spending their wekends doing God-knows-what. So if I still go to church every weekend, and am still trying to find answers, it's only because God is still giving me a chance. I mean, he could just let me get hit by a car and said, "That's it. your time's up." So I'm really thankful.

5. My friends from our Bible Study group often share their experiences with God, how he helped them, how amazing it feels when they first accepted Jesus in their lives, how amazing it is to have a close and personal relationship with God. I want to experience the same thing too. But the 3 points above have been keeping me from making the decision.

So that's all my points for now, I guess. Boy, that's long *rubs neck*
I've been back and forth between wanting to and not wanting to be a Christian and live according to the Bible. I thank anyone in advance for replying and answering some questions, or sharing their thoughts and helping me to make a decision.
First off you can ask us anything, you are totally normal and yes I have heard this before.

1. The objective is not: “Do not sin”. Trying to keep from doing bad is like asking the Holy Spirit to be inactive in your life. The way you keep from sinning is by actively doing good stuff, so you just do not have time to get involved in doing bad stuff. Eve had hundred, maybe thousands, of trees to taste and explore, so why was she hanging around the one tree she could not?

Trying to keep from sinning will wear you out, but there are thousands of wonderful things to do and that is what the Spirit wants to be doing with you. You are free enjoy the adventure, be rewarded by the challenge and share in God’s glory when wonderful things happen through you by allowing the Holy Spirit to be active in your life.

2. Heaven is great and hell is bad, but I think you are going through a little hell here on earth. You need to stop concentrating on your problems and get involved with people with real problems (your problems will seem much smaller). I think you’re trying to get something from your Bible study group that is not there and it may be partly their fault. Team up with someone through the week that is helping the needy, teaching the nonbeliever, visiting the sick, caring for street kids, etc.

3. I would say part of your problem is you have had a protected life. The grass always looks greener on the other side. They are having “fun” in this life and you are miserable so you can be happy in the next, NO! (But that is the way you are sounding) Read the story of the prodigal son, Luke 15. May be your whole little Bible study group is like this, but I can assure you if you were to get to really “know” these so called fun loving people (Hollywood is trying to sell you on) they have tons of regrets and problems. Is there a soup kitchen you can work at and talk to some of these “former” fun lovers?

You do not have to experience these tragedies first hand to appreciate life in Christ, but you can relive it through people you are working with to recover their lives.

4. Christian was never meant to be some kind of a title. It is a descriptive term meaning Christ like, so are you like Christ (Christ was spending lots of time with the needy). God cares about your heart and not how well you do or do not do. I would suggest that you have not really allowed God to forgive you (you are trying to be deserving or you are trying to pay God back someway by being good). You need to lay these burdens of lying, hurting others, not being a servant to the need, etc. before God and allow Him to forgiven you. If you truly allow God to forgive you of this huge debt of sin (“…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”) you will automatically Love much. This act is accepting pure charity and humans do not like accepting charity.

To truly put these sins behind you and turn them from being a burden into an asset, you need to make them part of your witness. That is the way you were and now God has changed me.

5. You friends in your Bible study group are going through the same things you go through, get to know them daily one on one and let them know you. I have been part of many groups. What are they doing to bring others to Christ and why are they not asking you to be part of their Bible studies with nonbelievers?

Enough for now, God be with you.
 
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Arglez

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I'm so blessed by your attitude and the way you're approaching this issue. I'm glad to see you're not pursuing human wisdom or logic or anything like that in order to come to your decision. Faith requires room for doubt; you understand that not everything will be known as you enter into relationship with Jesus. Testimonies are certainly the best way to come to faith in Jesus. I'm going to try to write out my testimony. I don't think it's worth posting in the testimonies section of CF, but I think it will be helpful here.

Necessary boring background info.
My father was a missionary to the Phillippines for a few years where he met my mother and married her. They then came back to the US to start a family and such. I grew up in private Christian education with a bit of Christian homeschooling. We never had a very stable church community as I grew up. We still "went to church" every week. I "got saved" multiple times in my childhood because I was never certain that I was actually saved.

Christianity was a boring way to get to heaven, not an attractive way of life.
Because of this, I didn't see the value in it. I fell deep into a inappropriate contentography addiction (I thankfully wasn't good with girls at the time, otherwise I would have pursued that) as well as a general love of money and possessions (video games, mainly) starting in 7th grade. As I went through my private high school years, I started realizing that my teachers, chapel speakers, and even some peers had something different that I had never seen before in Christians. To them, life wasn't about avoiding sin. It wasn't about following some sort of law in order to please God until we get to heaven.

Something new started happening in me.
I couldn't give you an exact date. I think Holy Spirit had been working in me my whole life, so the shifts that happened in high school were just a continuation of that. I started wanting to live for Jesus because as I spent time seeking him and seeing if there really was a way to receive his offer of an "abundant life."

I struggled for years to quit my inappropriate content addiction before even confessing it to anyone, and after confessing, I still struggled with it for three more years (on a smaller, but just as damaging scale).
I could go into detail, but it seems like you're familiar with the idea of struggling against sin and struggling against things that you want to do but aren't "allowed" to do. That was me for four or so years, up until a few months ago. It continued to get less and less, but it was so hard until God showed me something a few months ago.

I finally feel like I'm starting to get it.
I believe there are generally three ways that people approach Christianity and relationship with Jesus with regards to sin.

The first is the way I grew up: you stare at the problem (whatever sins you struggle with) and try to figure out how to fix it while begging for the power of Jesus. This is horrible. It will never fix the problem. It just won't. I don't care how much you pray for strength, set up accountability, or read your Bible. Fighting against sin is never going to help you stop sinning.

The second is what I began to hear as I went through high school and my first two years spent at a church here at college: you somehow focus on the solution, grace through Jesus, to motivate you to stop sinning. This seems different at first because it makes sure you keep in mind that Jesus has saved you and there's grace, so you don't feel as bad about yourself in the process. But it's still a horrible struggle. People still regard you as someone who is necessarily bound to sin and someone who will want to sin (not just being tempted--actually wanting to). Eventually, you realize it's boiling down to the same things: praying for strength, setting up accountability, and reading your Bible more (trying to think about God/Jesus more).

Finally, where I currently am growing explosively is the idea that you are no longer a sinner and Jesus love you in the fullest way possible regardless of anything else. This has come from entering into a different body of believers where I believe I will stay for as long as I'm in the area, and I love them as my family--something that I could never say about a church before. You just aren't a sinner when you are a child of God. You're a completely new person. You already have the strength of the Holy Spirit in you. You're already perfect. You just need to live in it and accept it. Temptation has zero power. Darkness has only as much control as you give it. There are hints of this stuff in the grace ideology, but it's different because you never have reason to feel bad or ashamed of doing anything once you understand how much Jesus loves you as a brother/sister and how much Father loves you as a child.

Conclusion
I believe that once someone has this revelation and understanding, once they allow Jesus to show them how beloved they are, they will never struggle with temptation again. There might be times of commiting sins, but it will be rare. The life of following Jesus and seeing the things he has for you is just too appealing compared to the junk of life. It's not that we're sitting here thinking that heaven is going to be amazing so it's worth going through the junk now. I'm expectantly excited about spending eternity in heaven with Jesus and my family of believers, but that probably takes up less than 5% of my thoughts of God now (whereas before it had to do with 90% or more of my motivation).

Yes, my thoughts are set on things above, things of God, but it's available now. Heaven is available here. The kingdom of God started in Jesus' life, death, and ressurrection. He destroyed death and sin. Satan's fighting a losing battle, desperately trying to get people to live their lives fighting against something that's already defeated. I can't make someone understand this. God has to show you, and if you ask him, he'll show you.

Miracles are real. Hope is real. Rejoicing in all things is real. Jesus' radical love is real and fulfilling. It doesn't leave you empty, and it doesn't just leave you full; it leaves you overflowing. I can say with confidence that it is getting brighter and better every day as I seek first the Kingdom of God and his righteousness.

I love you! God bless your search!
 
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hedrick

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I don't disagree that lives should show evidence of our faith. But the overall impression of the OP bothers me. People generally become Christian because Christian lives attract them. I doubt anyone will survive as a Christian if they think the Christian life is unattractive, but they have to do it to get to heaven. There are certain types of pleasure you give up, and it does require self-discipline. But most things in life that are worth doing require some kind of self-discipline.

It seems that you're concerned because you life doesn't look like those around you. Do you find their lives attractive? Do you want that for yourself? From the posting it doesn't sound like it.

I have some concerns about the image of being a Christian that you seem to be assuming:

1.
I can yell at someone if I'm mad, for example, without thinking about sins or losing the salvation.

Christians get mad, too. Now and then they yell at people. It's not ideal, and being a Christian does mean we treat other people right, but it doesn't stop us from being human. The main thing would be that you care about how your actions affect other people. There are things you can do, such as temporarily going somewhere else until you get control. But that won't always work. When you calm down you should talk to the person, make any apologies you need to, and try to patch things up. Getting angry at someone is certainly not going to lose your salvation.

Is it possible that you're taking too legalistic a view of what it means to be a Christian? Jesus' approach to changing lives is that they change from within. To get good fruit, you start with a good tree, and that comes from love of God and neighbor. It doesn't come from trying to avoid a list of sins, and being constantly afraid that if you fail you'll lose your salvation. I commend bling's posting.

2. I don't think you're going to succeed if you're just trying to avoid hell. If you don't start out by loving God and your neighbor, you're going to end up as a bad imitation of a Christian, operating from lists of Christian rules, instead of from love.

3. Christians can be wild and have fun. They just try to make sure that their fun is good fun. I applaud staying away from sex until you're married, but that still leaves plenty of room to have fun with the opposite sex.

4. If you're thanking God for his blessings, you're a Christian.

My overall impression is that you are in fact a Christian, and you've started hanging around with a group that is pushing purity rather than obedience. By purity I mean that our goal is to keep our record clean. By obedience I mean that we follow Jesus, and spend our time caring about other people. If you look at the places where Jesus talked about judgement, he speaks more about people helping others than avoiding lists of sins. In the parable of the sheep and goats, the problem with the goats wasn't that they sinned, but that they didn't feed people and visit them in prison. The fact that you're so interested in doing ministry is more important to me than the fact that now and then you get angry and yell at someone. Of course avoiding anger does help us love and serve people, so we shouldn't ignore that. But I'd say that Jesus' comments on anger were intended to help you develop as a more effective servant, not to be a burden. Are you getting the impression from them that if you sin you lose your salvation? Do they teach justification by faith? Do they mean it?

Like bling, I would encourage you to get involved helping other people. If your church doesn't think you're Christian enough, I'm sure there are non-church opportunities for service, or other church organizations that are happy to accept help from anyone who wants to help.

I understand that Christian undertake service projects as a witness for Christ. But Jesus seems to talk about serving people because we care about them, not just as a PR campaign for Christianity. I would think we would welcome anyone who wants to help.
 
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ephraimanesti

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I'm so blessed by your attitude and the way you're approaching this issue. I'm glad to see you're not pursuing human wisdom or logic or anything like that in order to come to your decision. Faith requires room for doubt; you understand that not everything will be known as you enter into relationship with Jesus. Testimonies are certainly the best way to come to faith in Jesus. I'm going to try to write out my testimony. I don't think it's worth posting in the testimonies section of CF, but I think it will be helpful here.

Necessary boring background info.
My father was a missionary to the Phillippines for a few years where he met my mother and married her. They then came back to the US to start a family and such. I grew up in private Christian education with a bit of Christian homeschooling. We never had a very stable church community as I grew up. We still "went to church" every week. I "got saved" multiple times in my childhood because I was never certain that I was actually saved.

Christianity was a boring way to get to heaven, not an attractive way of life.
Because of this, I didn't see the value in it. I fell deep into a inappropriate contentography addiction (I thankfully wasn't good with girls at the time, otherwise I would have pursued that) as well as a general love of money and possessions (video games, mainly) starting in 7th grade. As I went through my private high school years, I started realizing that my teachers, chapel speakers, and even some peers had something different that I had never seen before in Christians. To them, life wasn't about avoiding sin. It wasn't about following some sort of law in order to please God until we get to heaven.

Something new started happening in me.
I couldn't give you an exact date. I think Holy Spirit had been working in me my whole life, so the shifts that happened in high school were just a continuation of that. I started wanting to live for Jesus because as I spent time seeking him and seeing if there really was a way to receive his offer of an "abundant life."

I struggled for years to quit my inappropriate content addiction before even confessing it to anyone, and after confessing, I still struggled with it for three more years (on a smaller, but just as damaging scale).
I could go into detail, but it seems like you're familiar with the idea of struggling against sin and struggling against things that you want to do but aren't "allowed" to do. That was me for four or so years, up until a few months ago. It continued to get less and less, but it was so hard until God showed me something a few months ago.

I finally feel like I'm starting to get it.
I believe there are generally three ways that people approach Christianity and relationship with Jesus with regards to sin.

The first is the way I grew up: you stare at the problem (whatever sins you struggle with) and try to figure out how to fix it while begging for the power of Jesus. This is horrible. It will never fix the problem. It just won't. I don't care how much you pray for strength, set up accountability, or read your Bible. Fighting against sin is never going to help you stop sinning.

The second is what I began to hear as I went through high school and my first two years spent at a church here at college: you somehow focus on the solution, grace through Jesus, to motivate you to stop sinning. This seems different at first because it makes sure you keep in mind that Jesus has saved you and there's grace, so you don't feel as bad about yourself in the process. But it's still a horrible struggle. People still regard you as someone who is necessarily bound to sin and someone who will want to sin (not just being tempted--actually wanting to). Eventually, you realize it's boiling down to the same things: praying for strength, setting up accountability, and reading your Bible more (trying to think about God/Jesus more).

Finally, where I currently am growing explosively is the idea that you are no longer a sinner and Jesus love you in the fullest way possible regardless of anything else. This has come from entering into a different body of believers where I believe I will stay for as long as I'm in the area, and I love them as my family--something that I could never say about a church before. You just aren't a sinner when you are a child of God. You're a completely new person. You already have the strength of the Holy Spirit in you. You're already perfect. You just need to live in it and accept it. Temptation has zero power. Darkness has only as much control as you give it. There are hints of this stuff in the grace ideology, but it's different because you never have reason to feel bad or ashamed of doing anything once you understand how much Jesus loves you as a brother/sister and how much Father loves you as a child.

Conclusion
I believe that once someone has this revelation and understanding, once they allow Jesus to show them how beloved they are, they will never struggle with temptation again. There might be times of commiting sins, but it will be rare. The life of following Jesus and seeing the things he has for you is just too appealing compared to the junk of life. It's not that we're sitting here thinking that heaven is going to be amazing so it's worth going through the junk now. I'm expectantly excited about spending eternity in heaven with Jesus and my family of believers, but that probably takes up less than 5% of my thoughts of God now (whereas before it had to do with 90% or more of my motivation).

Yes, my thoughts are set on things above, things of God, but it's available now. Heaven is available here. The kingdom of God started in Jesus' life, death, and ressurrection. He destroyed death and sin. Satan's fighting a losing battle, desperately trying to get people to live their lives fighting against something that's already defeated. I can't make someone understand this. God has to show you, and if you ask him, he'll show you.

Miracles are real. Hope is real. Rejoicing in all things is real. Jesus' radical love is real and fulfilling. It doesn't leave you empty, and it doesn't just leave you full; it leaves you overflowing. I can say with confidence that it is getting brighter and better every day as I seek first the Kingdom of God and his righteousness.

I love you! God bless your search!
MY BROTHER,

As per your disclaimer at the bottom of your post, i must say that i find your communication style very loving and the way you express your ideas-clearly and logically--quite enlightening. This is the only one of your posts i have read thus far, but if this is typical, you have nothing to worry about regarding changing anything at all in the content or the loving expression evident in your posts.

May the young lady to whom this post was written take note of the truth of what you have shared and, in God's Grace, act upon it.

:bow:ABBA'S SLAVE,
ephraim
 
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razeontherock

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:wave: Hi, and welcome to CF. I wish to thank you for using this forum the way it is intended - for sincere questions. You are indeed at a junction in your life where you want to "look before you leap." Jesus Himself tells us to "count the cost." (Not as a way of warning against following Him, but as a way of bracing for the realities it entails)

1. One of the things that makes me reluctant to just say "Yes" to accepting Jesus in my life is the fact that a Christian's life is full of struggles. I've been watching and hearing stories from our Bible study group members (who are all believers, I'm the only non-believer) how hard it is for them to fight against themselves and their will and do what God wants them to do. And when I thought I'd believed, I had fought against my own self as well, and tried to do God's will. And man, it was exhausting.

This describes someone attempting to do the Lord's will, "in their own strength;" if not legalism outright. Without Him, we can do nothing!!

What you have NOT described, is coming unto Him and finding rest for your soul, for His burden is light and His yoke is easy. This should give you Hope that Biblical Christianity is not returning to the old way you have known, but something new in front of you.

2. A church friend once said that our lives is like a 4-foot rope. she colored one inch from one end of the rope with black and said that our lives in this earth is just this black part of the rope. The rest is eternity. She then asked the question "which would be better, struggle in the short end of the rope, but have eternal life for the rest of it; or have fun and live as we like in the short end of life but be burned in hell for the rest of it?" At that point I thought, But what if the rest of the rope (eternity) doesn't exist? What if life is just this, what we now have on earth? I mean, it's not like someone's crossed to eternity and came back and said "yeap, it exists, people!" I considered the logical thing would be for me to accept God anyway and struggle for the short life on earth, and if eternity doesn't exist, well it won't hurt and if it does, I'm on the safe side. But that would be a desicion made from my rationality, from my brain, not my heart. I don't think that would be right and I don't think that I would be a good Christian if I'd made the desicion based on what my brain says.

The last part of this point is Pascal's wager, which is indeed a weak argument.
Plus, someone HAS returned from the dead to tell us this is how it is! Christianity is all about trusting Jesus ;)

I don't think He looks favorably on the entirety of this life being 1 inch of rope. Heck, you can't even tie a knot in that!?! How 'bout, all the rope you've ever seen is this life, and you don't want to make a tangled mess out of it? That you've heard there's more even to it, but you need God's help with just handling what you've got on your hands now??

3. Coming from a "Christian" family and a country where free premarital sex is pretty much still a taboo, and for thinking I've been a believer all this time, I'm still a virgin at age 24. I've never had a bf, because I just don't fall for someone that easily, and well, I thought I was a Christian, so I was picky and didn't let myself fall for a non-believer. So I think I want to have a little "fun" first and enjoy the wildness of my age, you know, before deciding to accept Jesus and have to live in celibacy.

First of all, congratulations. Second of all, I didn't know such a place still existed. Next, know that you are not alone in this struggle; it's the biggest one many of us face. And finally, I'm sure there are a lot of people, good Christian people, that would be interested in you. Christianity =/= celibacy.
(Those are 2 separate things)

I urge you to follow HIm, the best you know how, as best as you are able :)
No Saint has ever done more than that. :hug:
 
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golgotha61

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1. One of the things that makes me reluctant to just say "Yes" to accepting Jesus in my life is the fact that a Christian's life is full of struggles. I've been watching and hearing stories from our Bible study group members (who are all believers, I'm the only non-believer) how hard it is for them to fight against themselves and their will and do what God wants them to do. And when I thought I'd believed, I had fought against my own self as well, and tried to do God's will. And man, it was exhausting. So I'm reluctant to go through that again. As a non-believer, I can do pretty much whatever I want, as long as the community accepts it. I can yell at someone if I'm mad, for example, without thinking about sins or losing the salvation.
I am sorry I found this post so late in the day for me to comment and expand on some things I feel important for you to consider but perhaps you will read these short messages and respond. The idea that it is less work or at least easier to sin and remain in that lifestyle as opposed to following Christ is not accurate. Galatians 5:19-21 gives a list of the fruits of living a life outside of the Christian teachings. No sin can remain static and always leads to those sins that are progressively worse and damaging.

I suspect you are already a Christian even though you may be having doubts and I use the same book only this time verses 22-23 that gives the fruits of the Spirit and, if I am correct in my observation, you have produced these fruits. A Christian is not defined by how many sins that are forgiven but rather by the fruits produced.

Since you have tasted the blessings of a loving God, to commit sin in an attempt to fulfill some perceived shortcoming will only lead to extreme guilt and regret. These emotions and conditions are worse than the struggle of living a Godly life that you have described. We can be forgiven and our sins covered but sin can never be undone, the effects of sin, in some fashion, will remain.


2. A church friend once said that our lives is like a 4-foot rope. she colored one inch from one end of the rope with black and said that our lives in this earth is just this black part of the rope. The rest is eternity. She then asked the question "which would be better, struggle in the short end of the rope, but have eternal life for the rest of it; or have fun and live as we like in the short end of life but be burned in hell for the rest of it?" At that point I thought, But what if the rest of the rope (eternity) doesn't exist? What if life is just this, what we now have on earth? I mean, it's not like someone's crossed to eternity and came back and said "yeap, it exists, people!" I considered the logical thing would be for me to accept God anyway and struggle for the short life on earth, and if eternity doesn't exist, well it won't hurt and if it does, I'm on the safe side. But that would be a desicion made from my rationality, from my brain, not my heart. I don't think that would be right and I don't think that I would be a good Christian if I'd made the desicion based on what my brain says.

Eternity is not something that can be tested or explained, it is conceptual. However, there are at least two examples of first hand reports of the existence of heaven and if heaven exists, by its biblical definition and description, so does eternity. Christ gives His presentation of heaven and that is His abode. Also Paul, in 2 Cor. 12:2-5, gives the description of heaven when he visited it perhaps when he was stoned and left for dead (this is just conjecture on my part).


3. Coming from a "Christian" family and a country where free premarital sex is pretty much still a taboo, and for thinking I've been a believer all this time, I'm still a virgin at age 24. I've never had a bf, because I just don't fall for someone that easily, and well, I thought I was a Christian, so I was picky and didn't let myself fall for a non-believer. So I think I want to have a little "fun" first and enjoy the wildness of my age, you know, before deciding to accept Jesus and have to live in celibacy. This is actually the topic that I was reluctant to talk to my church sisters about, because even though they might understand it, it's just embarassing, especially we all come from the same culture and I don't know what they would think about me if I tell them this. maybe they'll judge, maybe they won't. but I'm not taking a chance. So I'm asking you guys now, because I see that a lot of people here come from cultures where premarital sex is completely ok and telking about sex is not awkward or taboo. Has anyone ever had the same thought before they decide to become a Christian?

This is the most important part I want to address. Sin is only enjoyable for a season and then the pain. What you are going through reminds me so much of the original deception of Eve in Genesis when Satan convinced her that she was being cheated out of something really cool by God telling her and Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Do you know what I call a twenty four year old virgin? I call that person a treasure. You dear girl are a treasure, and the idea that something can be added to that treasure by succumbing to temptation is Satan's lie.
 
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Agentle

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Hi Daphnia,
I became a Christian back in my university years 36 years ago. Since then our family and now my wife and I have done sooooo much with God in many parts of the world, and I wouldn't exchange it for anything else. We've seen many miracles, (rock slide not cover our jeep in Pakistan) and healings and most importantly that constant relationship with God who indeed has unlimited love,patience and mercy with us.
SO today when I see the problems and disasters of so many people around me in other parts of the world I can only say, If only they had the Spirit of God helping them overcome their situation. Without God in Christ we are on our own with some help from some governments, maybe friends, a few books, but these are not lasting. A relationship with Jesus Christ is forever and through all situations in life. I'm a nature lover so I rejoice in God a lot when I see something that's marvelous and beautiful.
Even something small like eating the best marzipan at the factory in Lubeck Germany 2 years ago. It was great!
It's great to walk with Him daily.
God Bless you and Guide you.
Cheers
 
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Harry3142

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Daphnia-

Welcome to CF.

What is needed here is a definition of Christianity that actually conforms with Scripture. I'll be using the NIV Bible for my message, as it is easily understood in today's society.

A Christian is a person who has recognized that he (or she) is not perfect, and will never attain perfection. But he also recognizes that God requires perfection of those who would come face-to-face with him. Being good enough won't work. Having the good deeds outweigh the evil deeds won't work. Even doing his best won't work. Either he is perfect, cleansed of all sin, or he is doomed. One sin added to a lifetime of good works is the equivalent of a single drop of a lethal chemical's being added to a water supply, thereby rendering that water supply as toxic.

But God is not only The Author of Justice; he is also The Ultimate Realist and The Epitome of Mercy. He knows even better than we do that there is no way that we will ever measure up to his requirements for perfection. But instead of 'writing us off' as lost souls and going about his other business, he chose to lay out the blueprint for a rescue mission and then have his Son, Jesus Christ, accomplish this mission.

What Jesus Christ did was the perfect sacrifice. Through his passion, death, and resurrection he paid the blood atonement for the sins of all those who are willing to accept his sacrifice as pertinent to them, he took our sins upon himself as the only sinless person in history, and he carried those sins away from us (note the similarity to the sacrifice on The Day of Atonement, which is described in Leviticus 16:1-22). Through dying himself he accepted the ultimate fate of all sinners, and through his resurrection he himself conquered that consequence not only for himself, but also for all people.

And what is our role in all this? It's to accept Christ's sacrifice as personally applicable to us and our sins:

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished - he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:19-26)

The only righteousness which God accepts as true righteousness is his own, not ours. That's why we have to obtain it from him, rather than attaining it through our own efforts. What we could never earn as a salary, God chose to give us as a gift. But it is up to us as to whether we will accept his gift, or reject it through pride and arrogance, instead believing that we can duplicate God's righteousness through our own works.

And how do we repay God for the righteousness which he so freely has given us, enabling us to have assurance of salvation? We don't. Not only can we never repay him, or even augment the righteousness which he has given us, but even the words and actions which we say and do as Christians is itself totally dependent on God, not us, if they are to truly conform to what he wants of us.

It would be logical to assume that we would simply obey his laws and commandments as a means of repaying God. But St. Paul himself realized that there was a problem even in his own attempts at keeping the law:

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do - this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God - through Jesus Christ our Lord! (Romans 7:14-24a)

What St. Paul described in this passage is now called 'paradoxical intention'. Psychologists recognize it as so dominant a part of our psyche that they use it in some of their treatments. There's also an old saying which recognizes its power: "The harder you try, the faster you fail." And it is what prevents mankind from ever obeying any set of laws and commandments beyond merely a superficial mode.

But what we can't do through the proper keeping of laws written on parchment or stone, God himself has enabled us to do. But it's not through increasing our willpower, but instead it's through 'reining in' our sinful nature himself, and then replacing that sinful nature with a new nature through which he can work. In other words, it's through writing his laws on our heart:

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. (Galatians 5:16-26)

At first glance this passage looks like a list of Do's and Don't's. But count how many of 'the acts of the sinful nature' are actually emotions, rather than actions. If left unchecked they culminate in the commission of sinful acts, but they themselves lie much deeper in our psyche. For us to think that we can subdue them ourselves is akin to a leopard's thinking that he can exchange his spots for the stripes of a tiger. We need for the Spirit to bring them under subjection himself, while we follow behind him.

And the 9 emotions listed as 'the fruit of the Spirit'? Again we are dependent on the Spirit's implanting these within our hearts. We cannot possess them through willpower. Instead, we must receive them as another gift from God. And without them we quite literally cannot perform the tasks that God wants of us. They are the borders within which all our words and actions are to originate if they truly conform to God's will. They are the parameters, beyond which we cannot see our words and actions as 'in synch' with what God would have of us.

And therein lies God's wisdom. He did all the work that was necessary in order to earn our salvation for us, and it is also through our willingness to be utterly dependent on God's Spirit that we are capable of doing what God wants of us, while having the attitude toward our work that God wants us to have. Why did he deliberately see to it that we could not take credit for any part of our salvation or the works we do as a result of accepting that salvation? He did it to effectively 'slam the door' on the most dangerous of all sins, namely, the sin of Pride.

Since we cannot claim any credit for our salvation, there is no reason for us to be proud as a result of having received it. And since our words and actions, if they are to truly conform to what God wants of us, must have as their origin 'the fruit of the Spirit', which must also be given us as a gift, there too we have no reason for boasting. God has effectively 'fenced us in'. And he has done it not so that he can boast, but rather so that we can be protected from the sin that is so venomous that it has destroyed entire nations.

God bless-
 
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I don't think becoming a Christian is really about do's and don'ts. So if you're worried about that aspect of Christianity, I wouldn't worry so much about that.

I don't know what to tell you about being a virgin. I'm 32 and I'm a virgin, but that's not necessarily b/c of any religious decision. I just consider the type of life I want to have and the type of relationships I want to have and going out and having sex with someone, just for the sake of sex, isn't something that I feel will ever help me have healthy relationships.

I'm not going to tell you not to have premarital sex, b/c that is your decision alone. But if you feel pressure to "lose" your virginity, I would suggest examining source of that pressure and if it is something you really want to do, or just think that other people think you should do.

I don't think being a Christian is a miserable experience. I don't really abstain from anything I want to do. I wouldn't let that anxiety stop you.
 
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Harry3142

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Thank You Harry3142,
That was very detailed. Can you put it in a nutshell and to the point what you are trying to say.
Cheers

We are assured of salvation through our accepting what God has done for us through Christ. It is through his work accomplished in his Son, Jesus Christ, that we are cleansed of our sins and they are removed from us.

Due to a quirk in our nature we are incapable of keeping the law. The harder we try, the faster we fail. That's why it was necessary for Christ to come among us in the first place.

God knows of this quirk, and has taken steps himself to deal with it. We do as God wants not because of our willpower, but rather because God's Spirit has dubdued our sinful nature and replaced it with a divine one.

Because it is through what God has done in both areas, namely, our salvation and how we are to behave following having accepted the salvation, it is God who is due the credit. There is no reason for anyone to boast because of what he (or she) has done. If they have done what conforms to God's will, then they have done it because of the work that God himself already accomplished in them.
 
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ephraimanesti

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I don't think becoming a Christian is really about do's and don'ts. So if you're worried about that aspect of Christianity, I wouldn't worry so much about that.

I don't know what to tell you about being a virgin. I'm 32 and I'm a virgin, but that's not necessarily b/c of any religious decision. I just consider the type of life I want to have and the type of relationships I want to have and going out and having sex with someone, just for the sake of sex, isn't something that I feel will ever help me have healthy relationships.

I'm not going to tell you not to have premarital sex, b/c that is your decision alone. But if you feel pressure to "lose" your virginity, I would suggest examining source of that pressure and if it is something you really want to do, or just think that other people think you should do.

I don't think being a Christian is a miserable experience. I don't really abstain from anything I want to do. I wouldn't let that anxiety stop you.
MY DEAR BROTHER,

It is good to hear that you are now a Christian! You might want to change your logo to reflect this all-important change in your Life.

BLESSINGS!

:bow:ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim
 
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