Are today's Jewish Israelite's the descendants of original Israelite's

[revybub]

So in the current situation in Israel/Gaza/Countries surrounding we have the on going argument that today's Israelite's (current residents) living in Israel are not the descendants of the original Israelite's.

While history going back before the Palestinians existed show us that the land of Israel has been fought for over 1,000's of years. The people of the once Jewish biblical/ historical Jewish nation experienced many wars over their land. And have been driven out and back many times. I don't claim to be a historian of exact facts. But a brief knowledge of the history of the land is evident of that enough.

So the question begs to be do the current residents of Israel hold up being descendants of the original Hebrew Jews of the land that was promised to them and given to them.

The importance of this is significant for any Christian. I am just looking for a discussion on this matter with facts from both sides of the issue. And for those who defend it being Palestinian lands. How do you back that up being a Christian when Christ was/is a Jew.

 

[revybub]

Current situation ? Where?
Argument ? Who ?
Arguing ? Why ?

fixed

 

[Akjv]

So in the current situation in Israel/Gaza/Countries surrounding we have the on going argument that today's Israelite's (current residents) living in Israel are not the descendants of the original Israelite's.

While history going back before the Palestinians existed show us that the land of Israel has been fought for over 1,000's of years. The people of the once Jewish biblical/ historical Jewish nation experienced many wars over their land. And have been driven out and back many times. I don't claim to be a historian of exact facts. But a brief knowledge of the history of the land is evident of that enough.

So the question begs to be do the current residents of Israel hold up being descendants of the original Hebrew Jews of the land that was promised to them and given to them.

The importance of this is significant for any Christian. I am just looking for a discussion on this matter with facts from both sides of the issue. And for those who defend it being Palestinian lands. How do you back that up being a Christian when Christ was/is a Jew.

I would say it is a matter of if one believes God, who said he would bring them back to Israel. If one does not believe God then he could argue they are not descendants.

 

[splish- splash]

Not all residents of Israel have Jewish blood in them. People can move to Israel and live there but that doesn't make their bloodline Jewish.

Unless there is ofcourse evidence, that Jewish people were all wiped out at some point, they do still exist. One cannot have Jewish blood from nowhere.

There has to be a Jewish ancestor for their descendants to still be here. Ancestry tests/ DNAs can identify those who are of a Jewish bloodline.

I have met some around the UK. They are quite thorough with their religious practices & they seem to hang around only in Jewish circles.

I guess it should be very easy, to Identify them, because I understand most Jewish people hardly inter-marry. Unless ofcourse they have broken away from their religion.

 

[Benjamin Müller]

The Temple Institute I believe has done DNA studies to find Levites, because only Levites can be in charge of temple services. They want to find and train the sons of Aaron for the future 3rd temple, which as far as I'm aware they have been doing.


There's even have a law in which you can not change your last name to a Levitcal last name. So they certainly know who they are genetically. The Jewish people are descendants of the House of Judah. They kept their genealogy records pretty straight and clear, even if they merely passed down their national identity to their children.

Also, aside from Jews and Hebrew Roots-Christians, who in the world would keep Friday Sunset-Saturday Sunset Sabbath and all the Holy Days as religious observances? Exodus 31:13


ETA:

Genetic Study
Genetic Study (2)

 

[iluvatar5150]

So in the current situation in Israel/Gaza/Countries surrounding we have the on going argument that today's Israelite's (current residents) living in Israel are not the descendants of the original Israelite's.

While history going back before the Palestinians existed show us that the land of Israel has been fought for over 1,000's of years. The people of the once Jewish biblical/ historical Jewish nation experienced many wars over their land. And have been driven out and back many times. I don't claim to be a historian of exact facts. But a brief knowledge of the history of the land is evident of that enough.

So the question begs to be do the current residents of Israel hold up being descendants of the original Hebrew Jews of the land that was promised to them and given to them.

Modern Israeli Jews have a mix of ancestries. Maybe 50-60% are of some flavor of middle eastern descent.

Israeli Jews - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And for those who defend it being Palestinian lands. How do you back that up being a Christian when Christ was/is a Jew.

If Christ has any influence on this matter at all, it's to render the nation of Israel as a political entity theologically irrelevant. The only reason (primarily conservative fundamentalist) Christians are so gung ho about this being "Israel" is because of fads around end times theology and the resulting fetishization of Israel.

 

[PloverWing]

So in the current situation in Israel/Gaza/Countries surrounding we have the on going argument that today's Israelite's (current residents) living in Israel are not the descendants of the original Israelite's.

I don't think that's the argument, or at least that's not an argument I've been hearing.

The difficulty in Israel/Palestine is that during the centuries between the Roman destruction of the Temple and the 20th-century creation of the modern state of Israel, various other people were living on that land. I don't think the residents claimed Israelite ancestry (many are Arabs), but they claimed that as of, say, 1900, they were living on the land.

It's a tough situation. Israelis need a homeland; centuries of persecution of Jews has shown us that. And, the homeland already had people in it. The past century of terrible violence has made it all worse. But I don't think it's a question of Palestinians claiming ancient Israelite ancestry.

 

[BPPLEE]

Modern Israeli Jews have a mix of ancestries. Maybe 50-60% are of some flavor of middle eastern descent.

Israeli Jews - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If Christ has any influence on this matter at all, it's to render the nation of Israel as a political entity theologically irrelevant. The only reason (primarily conservative fundamentalist) Christians are so gung ho about this being "Israel" is because of fads around end times theology and the resulting fetishization of Israel.

It couldn’t be because I am sympathetic to a people that had 6 million of their fellow Jews exterminated and were scattered around the globe?

 

[dzheremi]

Does it matter? I mean, yes, obviously it matters to the people who are making that argument (though, like others, this is not really an argument that I've been hearing), but should it matter to anyone? I wouldn't rejoice when calamities befall the Arabs in places like Egypt or the rest of North Africa, or Iraq or the rest of the Fertile Crescent, just because they are not the original inhabitants. They have been there for centuries, to the point where expecting them to all 'go back' to Arabia proper (especially when they're all mixed with something or other) would be fantastically insulting and unreasonable.

The same could be said about the Jews in Palestine, insofar as they have always been a population resident in the area, even if any particular Jews may not have been.

 

[iluvatar5150]

It couldn’t be because I am sympathetic to a people that had 6 million of their fellow Jews exterminated and were scattered around the globe?

The Jews exterminated by the Nazis were, as far as I'm aware, largely not descended from ancient Semitic peoples. As I noted earlier, their claim to a home in Palestine was as valid as my claim to a home in Rhode Island by virtue of my being a Baptist.

Now, I do think European Jews should've been allowed to move to Palestine -and to loads of other places- but that's because I'm generally an open borders kind of guy and because I think closing your doors to refugees is a pretty jerky thing to do. If your concern is giving shelter to the displaced, then that's the answer. However, what doesn't follow from that is attaching some sort of theological significance to the existence of Israel as a political entity in that location.

 

[BPPLEE]

The Jews exterminated by the Nazis were, as far as I'm aware, largely not descended from ancient Semitic peoples. As I noted earlier, their claim to a home in Palestine was as valid as my claim to a home in Rhode Island by virtue of my being a Baptist.

Now, I do think European Jews should've been allowed to move to Palestine -and to loads of other places- but that's because I'm generally an open borders kind of guy and because I think closing your doors to refugees is a pretty jerky thing to do. If your concern is giving shelter to the displaced, then that's the answer. However, what doesn't follow from that is attaching some sort of theological significance to the existence of Israel as a political entity in that location.

The Bible says it. They would be scattered : “Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord” (Jeremiah 31:35-37).
Then they would be a nation again.
However, as a nation, they must go through the tribulation period but, on the verge of extinction by the armies of the “Beast” (Antichrist), they will come to recognize Jesus Christ as their Messiah-Savior-King.

“And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. ... In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness. … And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one. … And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. ... For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob” (Zechariah 12:9-10; 13:1; 14:9, 11; Romans 11:25-26).
So people who believe the Bible disagree with you.
I’m not an expert on prophecy but I think this is why some people attach theological significance to Israel.
As for your other claims many Israelis trace their roots to the ancient Israelites, particularly the kingdom of Judah. They have done DNA testing to identify the descendants of the Levites. They are the only ones who can serve as Priests in the temple services.
But I’m sympathetic to the Jewish people because of what has been done to them in the past and they are an ally to the US.

 

[ralliann]

So in the current situation in Israel/Gaza/Countries surrounding we have the on going argument that today's Israelite's (current residents) living in Israel are not the descendants of the original Israelite's.

While history going back before the Palestinians existed show us that the land of Israel has been fought for over 1,000's of years. The people of the once Jewish biblical/ historical Jewish nation experienced many wars over their land. And have been driven out and back many times. I don't claim to be a historian of exact facts. But a brief knowledge of the history of the land is evident of that enough.

So the question begs to be do the current residents of Israel hold up being descendants of the original Hebrew Jews of the land that was promised to them and given to them.

The importance of this is significant for any Christian. I am just looking for a discussion on this matter with facts from both sides of the issue. And for those who defend it being Palestinian lands. How do you back that up being a Christian when Christ was/is a Jew.

A jew is he which is ritually circumcised into the Abrahamic covenant, and born into the sinai covenant made with the people of Israel. Genealogy (DNA) does not matter other than for the priesthood.
Ex 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

 

[AV1611VET]

Are today's Jewish Israelite's the descendants of original Israelite's?

Yes.

In the near future, we are going to see 144,000 Jews -- 12,000 from each tribe -- sealed with a mark on their foreheads.

 

[BPPLEE]

A jew is he which is ritually circumcised into the Abrahamic covenant, and born into the sinai covenant made with the people of Israel. Genealogy (DNA) does not matter other than for the priesthood.
Ex 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

@Illuvatar5150 see above

 

[iluvatar5150]

The Bible says it. They would be scattered : “Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord” (Jeremiah 31:35-37).
Then they would be a nation again.
However, as a nation, they must go through the tribulation period but, on the verge of extinction by the armies of the “Beast” (Antichrist), they will come to recognize Jesus Christ as their Messiah-Savior-King.

“And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. ... In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness. … And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one. … And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. ... For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob” (Zechariah 12:9-10; 13:1; 14:9, 11; Romans 11:25-26).

You just reinforced my point regarding the end times theology fads.

So people who believe the Bible disagree with you.

Nice little flame there.

No, the people who interpret the Bible in a very specific, relatively new (i.e. <200yo) way disagree with me.

I’m not an expert on prophecy but I think this is why some people attach theological significance to Israel.

Like I said: end times theology fads.

As for your other claims many Israelis trace their roots to the ancient Israelites, particularly the kingdom of Judah. They have done DNA testing to identify the descendants of the Levites. They are the only ones who can serve as Priests in the temple services.
But I’m sympathetic to the Jewish people because of what has been done to them in the past and they are an ally to the US.

I'm aware of the DNA tests - that's how I know that at least roughly half of modern Israeli Jews aren't descended from the original Bible-era Jewish peoples.

 

[BPPLEE]

You just reinforced my point regarding the end times theology fads.



Nice little flame there.

No, the people who interpret the Bible in a very specific, relatively new (i.e. <200yo) way disagree with me.



Like I said: end times theology fads.




I'm aware of the DNA tests - that's how I know that at least roughly half of modern Israeli Jews aren't descended from the original Bible-era Jewish peoples.

That’s means half are Descendants of the Bible era Jewish people. That’s a little different than what you posted earlier. (As for the other half please see post #14)I apologize for the flame that was not intentional. I don’t see how you can interpret those scriptures much differently though. But people generally find a way to reinforce their beliefs with the way they interpret the scriptures rather than the other way around.

 

[iluvatar5150]

That’s means half are Descendants of the Bible era Jewish people.

It means no more than half, which is still a fair number of people.

 

[ralliann]

That’s means half are Descendants of the Bible era Jewish people. That’s a little different than what you posted earlier. (As for the other half please see post #14)I apologize for the flame that was not intentional. I don’t see how you can interpret those scriptures much differently though. But people generally find a way to reinforce their beliefs with the way they interpret the scriptures rather than the other way around.

The Priests of the kingdom of Israel are in fact 100%.

Ex 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Priesthood is by inheritance.

Jos 18:7 But the Levites have no part among you; for the priesthood of the LORD is their inheritance:

 

[seeking.IAM]

I think a more interesting question is how many Israelis are secular/cultural Jews vs. how many are religious Jews? I think the answer to that question is important as to whether Christians are supporting restoring the Holy Land as a religious issue or are they supporting a predominantly secular society, perhaps without realizing it? I have a friend who identifies herself as a Zionist cultural Jew, but she is not religious. She moved to Israel; I pray she is safe and well.

 

[ralliann]

I think a more interesting question is how many Israelis are secular/cultural Jews vs. how many are religious Jews? I think the answer to that question is important as to whether Christians are supporting restoring the Holy Land as a religious issue or are they supporting a predominantly secular society, perhaps without realizing it? I have a friend who identifies herself as a Zionist cultural Jew, but she is not religious. She moved to Israel; I pray she is safe and well.

Either way Natural law is enough for the secular to see the unjust judgement of what happens. Being unjust in judgement between two parties is naturally known as wrong.