Are theistic evolutionists too aggressive to creationists?

verysincere

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God tells us the entire history of the 7 days of creation from Genesis 1:1 to Genesis 2:3. At Genesis 2:4 we are taken BACK to the events of the 3rd day and information is added to Genesis 1. This shows that there is but ONE account of the creation, and not two. The events are in perfect chronological order.

In Love,
Aman


No. Genesis 2 is a second account which approaches the story of the beginnings in a different way. It is NOT MEANT to be assumed chronological. It simply focuses on particular aspects of creation. In no way is it an elaboration on YOM #3.

It focuses on the ERETZ (the "land"). It is the introduction to the Garden pericope. It sets the stage for what follows. It is NOT describing the entire planet. ERETZ (which KJV translates as "earth" in this context) is referring to "plot of land/ground". That area before God planted the garden was barren---so no plants there prior to the land being "developed".
 
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Aman777

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Originally Posted by Aman777
God tells us the entire history of the 7 days of creation from Genesis 1:1 to Genesis 2:3. At Genesis 2:4 we are taken BACK to the events of the 3rd day and information is added to Genesis 1. This shows that there is but ONE account of the creation, and not two. The events are in perfect chronological order.


Very:>>No. Genesis 2 is a second account which approaches the story of the beginnings in a different way. It is NOT MEANT to be assumed chronological. It simply focuses on particular aspects of creation. In no way is it an elaboration on YOM #3.

Dear Very, Really? Tell us WHY God tells us that man was made the day the earth was made but BEFORE the plants grew? Also, explain WHY He used the word "formed" instead of "created". The word formed is from a Hebrew word for sqeezing into shape like a Potter molds the clay. It fits making a physical man but NOT a created one.

EVERY time God creates, it is an Eternal creation, and it takes the AGREEMENT of the Trinity. ie. Let US make man in our Image.

Very:>>It focuses on the ERETZ (the "land"). It is the introduction to the Garden pericope.

Not so. The word eretz is used in Genesis 1:1 and means ground, which comes from an unused word which means firm.

Very:>>It sets the stage for what follows. It is NOT describing the entire planet.

It is in Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:10.

Very:>>ERETZ (which KJV translates as "earth" in this context) is referring to "plot of land/ground". That area before God planted the garden was barren---so no plants there prior to the land being "developed".

I agree, but God calls the ground earth. In Genesis 2:4 the word tell us of the Day the earth was made. It was before He formed man of the dust of the ground. Again the word "eretz" is used. IOW, The Hebrew word for "earth" means ground or land. Every time it is used, it means the same thing. There is nothing unique about the earth or land in the Garden. It's dirt.

In Love,
Aman
 
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Aman777

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Jilfe:>>Here's a good one, how did Theistic evolution come about in the first place, amongst christians, when there is not any thing in the Holy Scriptures that even points towards it.

Dear Jilfe, Amen. Genesis 2:4-7 clearly states that man was formed of the dust of the ground on the 3rd Day. The other living creatures were NOT made until the 5th Day. Genesis 1:21 This means that man could NOT have evolved from ANY other living creature, since he was made before the other living creatures were made.

Evolution is defined as the measurement of changes in the allele frequency in a population over time. Man was created BEFORE there were ANY changes in the allele frequency and BEFORE there was any other creature to evolve from.

Theistic Evols must change their ideas that man evolved from other beings. It is NOT Scriptural. It agrees with Godless Evolution but NOT with Scriptural adaptation or Micro evolution, which is changes within "kinds".

In Love,
Aman
 
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verysincere

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Originally Posted by Aman777

Dear Very, Really? Tell us WHY God tells us that man was made the day the earth was made but BEFORE the plants grew?

One more time. ERETZ means "land". It is referring not to "planet earth" but to the "land of Eden" where the garden was located. It is talking about the development of that one area---and how before it was developed, there was NOT YET anything growing on it. (Think desert wilderness!)

Read the text in Hebrew and perhaps that will help you.
 
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Aman777

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Originally Posted by Aman777
Dear Very, Really? Tell us WHY God tells us that man was made the day the earth was made but BEFORE the plants grew?
Very:>>One more time. ERETZ means "land". It is referring not to "planet earth" but to the "land of Eden" where the garden was located.

Dear Very, Ok. Are you trying to say that the Garden was NOT on the earth or land? FYI, The land was made at the same time the earth was made. That's why the Hebrew word for earth and land is the same.

Very:>>It is talking about the development of that one area---and how before it was developed, there was NOT YET anything growing on it. (Think desert wilderness!)

Are you saying that the land was not land until something grew on it? If so, then Read Genesis 1:12 which shows that the plants grew on the 3rd Day. This is confirmed in Genesis 2:8 which shows that the Lord caused the land to grow plants AFTER man was formed. Both events AGREE that this happened on the THIRD day.

Very:>>Read the text in Hebrew and perhaps that will help you.

This one? Hbr 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth;

The word "earth" in this verse can mean:

AV — earth 188, land 42, ground 18, country 2, world 1

IOW, The word "earth" in Greek means the same as it does in Hebrew.

In Love,
Aman
 
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Fascinated With God

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Mark Kennedy

Here's a good one, how did Theistic evolution come about in the first place, amongst christians,
when there is not any thing in the Holy Scriptures that even points towards it.

It is understandable for secular scientists, and secular cultures to fall into it, because they worship false gods any how, so when they use the term theistic evolution, there referring to there own imaginatins of god, rather than the Biblical account of the true God.

So how did Christians get caught in this trap, when they have the Bible, it's hard to comprehend.

They seem to belive the secular over the written word of the Bible.
Where in the Bible is there any scripture pointing towards God using evolution.

Yet the Bible teaches plainly about God doing creation.

Especially with a verse as this:

Jesus Himself speaking these very words.

Mk:10:6: But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
This whole post reveals that the answer to the topic question is a definitive NO. It is quite the other way around, Creationists are the ones who are extremely aggressive and bigoted.
 
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Aman777

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This whole post reveals that the answer to the topic question is a definitive NO. It is quite the other way around, Creationists are the ones who are extremely aggressive and bigoted.

Dear Fascinated, I'm a creationist who agrees with Micro evolution or adaptation within kinds. I think Theistic Evolution teaches that man evolved from other living creatures. I do not see where TE gets this since Adam was made before ANY other living creature. How do TEs explain this Scriptural fact?

Genesis 2:4-7 shows that man was formed on the 3rd Day. Genesis 1:21 shows that every living creature that moves was created and brought forth from the water on the 5th Day. This means that humankind was made long before natural creatures. Correct?

In Love,
Aman
 
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mark kennedy

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Mark Kennedy

Here's a good one, how did Theistic evolution come about in the first place, amongst christians,
when there is not any thing in the Holy Scriptures that even points towards it.


I think they simply bought into the idea that if you don't believe something in the Bible you can dismiss it as a figure of speech. I honestly think it's as simple as that.

It is understandable for secular scientists, and secular cultures to fall into it, because they worship false gods any how, so when they use the term theistic evolution, there referring to there own imaginatins of god, rather than the Biblical account of the true God.

What disturbs me is their lack of doctrinal clarity. I honestly have no idea what they believe simply because they spend the vast majority of their time arguing against things the don't believe.

So how did Christians get caught in this trap, when they have the Bible, it's hard to comprehend.

They were encouraged by the academic world to attack Creationism and for that, they receive instant credibility. Most of the atheists and agnostics that are pushing the Darwinian view of natural history realize that to deny Creation is to dismiss the Scriptures. The problem is that theistic evolutionists never got the memo.

They seem to belive the secular over the written word of the Bible.
Where in the Bible is there any scripture pointing towards God using evolution.

Did you know that it's rare for things not to evolve? The problem isn't with evolutionary biology, the problem is with a Darwinian assumption that everything must have a naturalistic evplanation.

Yet the Bible teaches plainly about God doing creation.

It also plainly teaches that the incarnation and being born again are the same miracle since they require special creation.

Especially with a verse as this:

Jesus Himself speaking these very words.

Mk:10:6: But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

Agreed. Every time the New Testament speaks of Creation it speaks of it in the same literal way Moses does in the opening pages of Scripture. The problem with Genesis 1 is not that it's hard to understand, the problem is hard to believe. In fact, it's impossible by human means but with God all things are possible.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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Cush

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(I also posted this down in the Creation & Evolution section. Hope the OP isn't too long.)

Should christians criticise with one another? I think we should. If we didn't, the Reformation wouldn't have happened. The problem I suspect is that creationists and theistic evolutionists aren't really debating or criticising each other any more.

This brings me to another question. Should theologians give way to popular theories and shoehorn their theories into Scripture by what arguably could be lack of faith in God's word. I mean look at all the acrobatic maneuvers one must go through to reconcile Scripture with Science. Given the Church has brought about a lot of criticism in the past for doing so. I mean the earth was flat, but nowhere in Scripture does it say so. It just seems that theistic evolutionist have abandoned their faith in favor of popular scientific theory, and in the process have misled many a people, past and present.

Last question, would you say that theistic evolutionist began in the Catholic church, I haven't a clue, but it appears to be something that they would succumb to, despite making the same mistakes in the past.
 
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troodon

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It just seems that theistic evolutionist have abandoned their faith in favor of popular scientific theory, and in the process have misled many a people, past and present.
I guess you and I see the world differently. If my eyes say the sky is blue and the Bible says it's purple I'm going to believe my eyes over the Bible. The Bible being wrong about what color the sky is does nothing to my faith in God and Christ, but I guess it means I'm not a Christian to you. Whatever.
 
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Cush

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I guess you and I see the world differently. If my eyes say the sky is blue and the Bible says it's purple I'm going to believe my eyes over the Bible. The Bible being wrong about what color the sky is does nothing to my faith in God and Christ, but I guess it means I'm not a Christian to you. Whatever.

I'm just saying if you rely on your eyes only you may conclude that the earth is flat. And, I'm stating that nowhere in the Bible does it state that the world is flat, however, the church failed in keeping a footing on the foundation of scripture and fell to popular scientific leaning.

And since you brought to attention your eyes, perhaps you can share where macro evolution is observable or where in Scripture have you concluded that evolution is true?

Whatever, is right.

Shout Glory :clap:
 
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troodon

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And since you brought to attention your eyes, perhaps you can share where macro evolution is observable or where in Scripture have you concluded that evolution is true?
The fossil record shows approximately 370 million years of tetrapod "macro evolution".
 
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Cush

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The fossil record shows approximately 370 million years of tetrapod "macro evolution".

I'd first like to comment on your last comment, as I can't help but notice the contradiction. :
Originally Posted by troodon
I guess you and I see the world differently. If my eyes say the sky is blue and the Bible says it's purple I'm going to believe my eyes over the Bible. The Bible being wrong about what color the sky is does nothing to my faith in God and Christ, but I guess it means I'm not a Christian to you. Whatever.
First I am not calling you a false Christian. I can't help but see how your views regarding evolution and how you view Scripture parallel, and do not necessarily demonstrate faith in God's word, however. I'd think that one should align themselves, their experience by Scripture, and not align an understanding of Scripture based on their own personal experience. For example, believing a lie and telling a lie. Although it may be lucrative for you and arguably good, Scripture says.... well, you get the picture.

Anyhoot, speaking of Fossils, here's a great video that I would love to hear a response from an evolutionist on: Topic: Creationist -- Earth is 6000 Years Old (1/1) - Christian Discussion - ReligiousVerse

Shout Glory :clap:
 
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Cush

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Oh, and no "science" did not teach that the earth was flat. People performing using scientific methodology have known since antiquity that it was spherical. So stop lying.

You'd think that all one needed to do was look up to the heavens to see the moon and sun. But how many people argue against that notion.

Shout Glory :clap:
 
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troodon

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I can't help but see how your views regarding evolution and how you view Scripture parallel, and do not necessarily demonstrate faith in God's word. I'd think that one should align themselves, their experience by Scripture, and not align an understanding of Scripture based on their own personal experience.
No one is born into this world a Christian. Anyone who becomes a Christian does so because of their life experience and their perception of the world around them. If the world lies to me about geology and paleontology then I have no reason to believe in Christianity either, because it is the same world that has taught me about Christianity. A world you cannot accurately perceive is meaningless.

For example, believing a lie and telling a lie.
For me believing in young earth creationism would be believing a lie.

Haven't watched it, might tomorrow. I notice in your comment there that they carbon date a dead seal. Have you ever noticed that these "crazy dates" creationists get out of carbon dating typically come from marine organisms? Do you realize that this is a deliberate deception on their part because carbon dating is known to often give funky dates for marine organisms, because they are part of a different carbon cycle?

And people wonder why I'm so cynical.
 
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Cush

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The fossil record shows approximately 370 million years of tetrapod "macro evolution".

Speaking of speculation and propaganda:

April Fools—and Missing Links

by Brad Harrub, Ph.D.
Lived in water? Check. Possessed well developed gill arches and a gill chamber? Check. Possessed small pectoral fins and fin rays instead of limbs? Check. Covered in overlapping tuberculated scales? Check. The “missing link” fish that crawled out of water? Not even close. Given the amount of press this newly discovered creature has received, I was anxious to read what was actually discovered. I had heard all of the reports of how this “tetra-pod” or “fish-o-pod” was the missing link. I received countless e-mails from individuals who shared news accounts proclaiming this creature filled in the gap between fish and land-dwelling creatures. However, after all of the evolutionary propaganda was whittled away, an unbiased reader was left with little more than the fossils of a new unique creature that lived in the water.


Deemed Tiktaalik roseae [[SIZE=-1]NOTE[/SIZE]: Tiktaalik is derived from Inukitut, the traditional language in Nunavut where the fossils were discovered. Roseae honors a benefactor of Devoian paleontology], this creature is represented by several fossilized specimens that were discovered in the Nunavut Territory of Canada (Daeschler, et al., 2006, 440:757). The authors of the study make no hesitation in declaring that they have found a missing link between fish and land-dwelling creatures. They begin their scientific report noting:
The relationship of limbed vertebrates (tetrapods) to lobe-finned fish (sarcopterygians) is well established, but the origin of major tetrapod features has remained obscure for lack of fossils that document the sequence of evolutionary changes. Here we report the discovery of a well-preserved species of fossil sarcopterygian fish from the Late Devonian of Arctic Canada that represents an intermediate between fish with fins and tetrapods with limbs, and provides unique insights into how and in what order important tetrapod characters arose (Daeschler, et al., 440:757, parenthetical items in orig.).
That type of speculation and propaganda might be acceptable or even expected from the popular press, but not from a scientific journal where researchers should not delve into the realm of imagination or guesswork. Given the timing of the article and the news releases from the popular media, it is obvious that the announcement of this creature was a staged event—with the media having images and charts ready for publication long before the original scientific article was released. They wanted everyone to know that “the missing link” was no longer missing. The bold assertions made by the authors helped create media frenzy around this new creature with headlines declaring: “IT WAS one of the most important events of the last 400 million years: the moment our fishy ancestors began hauling themselves onto dry land. Now a fossil from the very beginning of that crucial transition has been found in the remote Arctic” (Holmes, 2006, emp. in orig.) The account in National Geographic quoted Neil Shubin, one of the authors of the study, proclaiming: “This animal represents the transition from water to land—the part of history that includes ourselves” (Owen, 2006). John Wilford, staff writer for The New York Times observed: “In an interview, Dr. Shubin, an evolutionary biologist, let himself go. ‘It’s a really amazing, remarkable intermediate fossil,’ he said. ‘It’s like, holy cow’” (2006). Wilford’s article also quoted H. Richard Lane, director of paleobiology at the National Science Foundation. Lane noted: “These exciting discoveries are providing fossil ‘Rosetta Stones’ for a deeper understanding of this evolutionary milestone—fish to land-roaming tetrapods” (as quoted in Wilford, 2006). The New York Times account also confronted the controversy between creation and evolution, noting: “Other scientists said that in addition to confirming elements of a major transition in evolution, the fossils were a powerful rebuttal to religious creationists, who have long argued that the absence of such transitional creatures are a serious weakness in Darwin’s theory” (Wilford, 2006, emp. added). Powerful rebuttal to religious creationists? How about smoke and mirrors with the media promoting this anti-God propaganda?
What Did They Really Find?

The authors summarize their discovery of Tiktaalik in the following manner: “Overall, the skeleton of Tiktaalik is that of a flat-bodied animal with raised and dorsally placed eyes, a mobile neck, imbricate ribs, and a pectoral girdle and forefin capable of complex movements and substrate support” (Daeschler, et al., 2006, 440:762). Simply put, these researchers found some fossilized remains of a unique aquatic fish that we had not yet discovered. Once you get beyond those facts, we find ourselves firmly embedded in the land of speculation. As Ahlberg and Clack admitted: “In some respects, Tiktaalik and Panderichthys are straightforward fishes: they have small pelvic fins, retain fin rays in their paired appendages and have well-developed gill arches, suggesting that both animals remained mostly aquatic” (440:748, emp. added). But what about this fin that Shubin makes such a big deal about? Ahlberg and Clack remarked: “It turns out that the distal part of the skeleton is adapted for flexing gently upwards—just as it would be if the fin were being used to prop the animal up” (440:748). Further: “Although these small distal bones bear some resemblance to tetrapod digits in terms of their function and range of movement, they are still very much components of a fin (440:748, emp. added).


So let me get this straight. It possesses characteristics that are very much like a fish, and yet all of the media outlets act like this creature was out walking on the land?! Before just blindly accepting the headlines presented in the media one should ask just what can we learn from a fossil dug out of the ground. Without a living specimen, can scientists know how a creature lived in the environment? Can we know the diet or the movements of the creature? Without preserved soft-tissue, can we determine what the internal organs looked like? The answer to all of these questions (and more) is a resounding “no.” Fossilized remains can only tell us so much about a creature. Once we go beyond what the physical evidence reveals, we begin seeing phrases such as “it is possible,” “it probably happened this way,” “many have suggested,” “could very well have,” or “we believe.” All of which are subjective speculation on the author’s part.


One interesting point that readers should consider as they contemplate this latest “missing link” is that the team who reported this find specifically set out to find a missing link. Ahlberg and Clack reported: “The Nunavut field project had the express aim of finding an intermediate between Panderichthys and tetrapods, by searching in sediments from the most probable environment (rivers) and time (late Devonian)” (2006, 440:747). Why did these scientists set out to discover a missing link? Maybe it had something to do with the statement from Daeschler’s team that the “origin of major tetrapod features has remained obscure for lack of fossils that document the sequence of evolutionary changes” (440:757). Maybe because there was such a huge gap in the evolutionary fossil record in getting creatures onto the land. Or maybe it was because evolutionists realized just how many holes had been poked into their beloved theory in the past few years—necessitating a major shoring up.


As expected, scientists have tried to bridge this gap from water-to-land in the past. Many may recall reading through textbooks about previous “missing links” such as the coelacanth. For instance, one biology textbook has a beautiful picture of this amazing creature with the following caption:
The living coelacanth, Latimeria chalumnae. Discovered in the western Indian Ocean in 1938, this coelacanth represents a group of fishes that had been thought to be extinct for about 70 million years. Scientists who studied living individuals in their natural habitat at depths of 100 to 200 meters observed them drifting in the current and hunting other fishes at night. Some individuals are nearly 3 meters long; they have a slender, fat-filled swim bladder. Although Latimeria is a very strange animal, its features mark it as a member of the evolutionary line that gave rise to the terrestrial tetrapods” (Raven and Johnson, 1989, p. 857, emp. added).
It seemed a good fit at the time. The funny looking creature with lobed front fins appeared to be the perfect candidate for evolutionists’ transitional creature. However, when live ones were found living below the 18 degree isotherm, the truth came out. Given the embarrassing position evolutionists found themselves in when it was discovered that coelacanths were deep water fish, one would think scientists would be more cautious in speculating about the shallow-water environment of the Tiktaalik. History has shown that the coelacanth was not the “missing link” that gave rise to tetrapods. The next delegate was the lungfish. Henner Brinkman and his colleagues summed up their research noting: “These data strongly support the hypothesis that the lungfishes and not the coelacanth are the closest relatives of the land vertebrates. This result emphasizes the importance of study of all aspects of the biology and genomics of extinct and extant lungfish; our closest ‘fish’ relatives” (2004, 101:4904, emp. added).


Well, goodbye lungfish, hello Tiktaalik. So, now we watch as scientists rejoice and speculate over the latest “missing link.” One can only wonder how long it will take before evolutionists are forced to go “back to the drawing board” as they redraw their beloved evolutionary tree of life with yet another alleged fish-to-land missing link. In his article rebutting the Tiktaalik, creationist Jonathon Witt quoted Henry Gee, previous editor of Nature (the journal in which this story was originally reported). Gee correctly observed: “To take a line of fossils and claim that they represent a lineage is not a scientific hypothesis that can be tested, but an assertion that carries the same validity as a bedtime story—amusing, perhaps even instructive, but not scientific” (as quoted in Witt, 2006). Sadly, textbooks will begin featuring the Tiktaalik as that animal that dragged us out onto the land. Forget the fact that there is not one shred of scientific proof that this actually occurred. And forget the fact that twenty years from now they’ll likely have to change it to some other creature. The important thing to remember is that evolutionists have everything under control, and they have an answer for everything. Maybe that’s why this discovery was reported the week of April Fool’s Day.
 
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Cush

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No one is born into this world a Christian. Anyone who becomes a Christian does so because of their life experience and their perception of the world around them. If the world lies to me about geology and paleontology then I have no reason to believe in Christianity either, because it is the same world that has taught me about Christianity. A world you cannot accurately perceive is meaningless.

For me believing in young earth creationism would be believing a lie.

Haven't watched it, might tomorrow. I notice in your comment there that they carbon date a dead seal. Have you ever noticed that these "crazy dates" creationists get out of carbon dating typically come from marine organisms? Do you realize that this is a deliberate deception on their part because carbon dating is known to often give funky dates for marine organisms, because they are part of a different carbon cycle?

And people wonder why I'm so cynical.

Good night and God Bless!!

Shout Glory :clap:
 
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troodon

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“a mobile neck...Tiktaalik and Panderichthys are straightforward fishes
^_^

Ain't nothin' "straightforward" about a fish with a mobile neck. It's as straightforward as a bird with teeth or a turtle without a carapace. Funny how these straightforward anatomical freaks that evolution predicts would have existed all end up getting found in the fossil record.
 
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Aman777

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No. Genesis 2 is a second account which approaches the story of the beginnings in a different way. It is NOT MEANT to be assumed chronological. It simply focuses on particular aspects of creation. In no way is it an elaboration on YOM #3.

Dear Very, Genesis 2:4-7 shows your view to be UnScritpural, since it is referring to the events of the 3rd Day. It tells us that on the 3rd Day or Age, when the earth was made, but BEFORE the plants grew, and before the rain, the LORD God (YHWH/Jesus) made man of the dust of the ground.

The earth/land was formed on the 3rd Day. Genesis 1:9-10
The plants grew on the 3rd Day. Genesis 1:12
Show that these events were not true and it would help me believe that your view is correct. Failure to show that these events were NOT on the 3rd Day refutes your understanding.

Very:>>It focuses on the ERETZ (the "land"). It is the introduction to the Garden pericope. It sets the stage for what follows. It is NOT describing the entire planet. ERETZ (which KJV translates as "earth" in this context) is referring to "plot of land/ground". That area before God planted the garden was barren---so no plants there prior to the land being "developed".

Since the earth/land was made on the 3rd Day and the Plants grew on the 3rd Day, you ideas are refuted. When you study the details, you will find that Genesis 1 agrees totally with Genesis 2.

Genesis 1 tells us that first, the earth/land is made, (Gen 1-9) and then man is made, and then plants grew. (Gen 1:12) Genesis 2 repeats that the earth/land is made (Gen 2:4), then adds the detail that man is made (Gen 2:7) and then the plants grew. (Gen 2:8) The sequence is the SAME.

The addition to the details comes after the earth is made but BEFORE the plants grew, which is exactly what Genesis 2:5 tells us:

Genesis 2:5 And every plant of the field BEFORE it was in the earth, and every herb of the field BEFORE it grew:

In Love,
Aman
 
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