Are the dead conscious and do the continue to exist?

[Dorothea]

Eternal life, immortally is a gift given by God, not something we are born with.

The punishment of the incorrigibly wicked is eternal death (that is, to never live again) not eternal life being tortured. That is eternal punishment, not eternal punishing!

Examples of what happens to the incorrigibly wicked can be read in many places in the Bible.

Ro.6:23 and Jo.3:16 say much the same thing.
Ro.6:23 For the wages of sin is death, BUT the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Jo.3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish BUT have everlasting life. Notice that DEATH or PERISHING is spoken of in contrast to eternal LIFE! Death or perishing is not speaking about life some where else doing something else. Notice also that eternal life is God’s gift. It is not something that we are born with! If God does not give us eternal life we can not get it for ourselves.

Before we read Ezk.18:4,20 we need to go back to Genesis. A misunderstanding of the word “soul” is at the crux of much of this misunderstanding. The word translated soul in Gen.2:7 is “Nephesh” (neh’-fesh) the word means a living creature, not something in us, that has its own life apart from us. The first time the word is used in the Bible is Gen.1:21 and is speaking about whales and other animals. This word is continually used to refer to animals of every kind. A few examples can be found in Gen.1:21,24 2:19, 9:10 and on and on. When it is used in Gen.2:7, man becomes a (nephesh) a living creature or a living soul. Man is not given a “nephesh,” he is one.

So now that we understand what a soul is and what it is not we can begin to understand Ezk.18:4 “ Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die. And again in verse 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Malachi 4 speaks to the time when the wicked shall be destroyed.
1“For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” “That will leave them neither root nor branch. [That is total annihilation] Now read verse 3.
“You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet
On the day that I do this,” Says the LORD of hosts.

Jesus speaks of this event in Mat.25:32-33,41 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Verse 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire ...We just read what happens when these wicked souls end up in this fire Mal.4

In Revelation 20:6 we read that “Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power... So the second death does have power over some. That second death is forever, eternal, ETERNAL DEATH, eternal punish-MENT; NOT eternal punish-ING.

There is only one being that would perpetuate the lie that God would torment people forever for one short life time of sin. That may be the way Satan would do things if he was in charge, but thank God Satan is not in charge, God is. Eternal punish-ING is Satan’s fate and he would like us to think it is our fate too.
Many here on this forum have fallen for this lie. Go Satan.

Again, I think there is a confusion here between the spiritual death and physical death. Many of the verses you pointed to with bold and red are talking of spiritual death. As for the red from Revelation, they are indeed talking about the spiritual - life in Christ which is eternal, immortal, and does not die.

It's really not nice to accuse people of following Satan.

 

[Stryder06]

I still think the answer to the OP lies in understanding the nature of man. If we were indeed given an immortal soul, well that's one thing. If we weren't however given an immortal soul, that's another.

 

[Dorothea]

In greek myths, disembodied spirits live on. According to you, disembodied spirits live on. Yet you also say that what you believe is different from greek mythology. How so? In both systems spirits live on without bodies.

Yes, because the spirits and souls do live on as it says so in the scriptures, as I've pointed out. We are alive in Christ. God gave us life with His breath - our spirits, which are immortal - cannot die unless we reject Him. We believe what He teaches not a greek myth.

What you need to understand besides greek myths being just myths and not of God is that they also believed that the body lived on separately from the spirit/soul, which is not what we believe.

 

[Dorothea]

I still think the answer to the OP lies in understanding the nature of man. If we were indeed given an immortal soul, well that's one thing. If we weren't however given an immortal soul, that's another.

Yes, Stryder, my friend. It comes down to two different beliefs and comes about on how we interpret the Scriptures. That's really it.

 

[RibI]

Again, I think there is a confusion here between the spiritual death and physical death. Many of the verses you pointed to with bold and red are talking of spiritual death. As for the red from Revelation, they are indeed talking about the spiritual - life in Christ which is eternal, immortal, and does not die.

It's really not nice to accuse people of following Satan.

That's kinda funny while at the same time kinda sad.
You are impervious to truth.

 

[Dorothea]

That's kinda funny while at the same time kinda sad.
You are impervious to truth.

No, RibI, hon, I just don't believe in your understanding of the truth.

 

[Timothew]

Yes, because the spirits and souls do live on as it says so in the scriptures, as I've pointed out. We are alive in Christ. God gave us life with His breath - our spirits, which are immortal - cannot die unless we reject Him. We believe what He teaches not a greek myth.

What you need to understand besides greek myths being just myths and not of God is that they also believed that the body lived on separately from the spirit/soul, which is not what we believe.

I've never heard that the greeks believed their bodies would live without their pysches/pneumas. Can you show me a reference?

 

[razeontherock]

And I do know what it means to come to Zion. The point I was trying to make is that it is figurative. There isn't an actual mountain named Zion that we are brought to. It speaks of being a part of God's chosen.

Yes it does speak to being part of G-d's chosen. The words "assembly of the firstborn" speak specifically to those that have gone on before as also being a part! I don't see why you want to discount that or them, but i do not see why this needs to be Salvific. And I don't think it's a question of the Bible contradicting itself, but I do see revelation as clearly being progressive. Also, Solomon was pretty depressed when he wrote your key verse ...

 

[Timothew]

I've never heard that the greeks believed their bodies would live without their pysches/pneumas. Can you show me a reference?

I know that in Homer, the spirits can only speak after they have consumed life blood. Is this what you are referring to, or something else?

 

[Dorothea]

I've never heard that the greeks believed their bodies would live without their pysches/pneumas. Can you show me a reference?

It was a conversation I had with my priest months ago when this topic came up back then. I told him those who understand as you about the pagan beliefs of the soul/spirit and body. And this is what he told me. When I get a chance, I will research this information for you, if you'd like.

 

[Rocky1960]

That's kinda funny while at the same time kinda sad.
You are impervious to truth.

The rules say to address the content of the post, not the poster.

 

[razeontherock]

The punishment of the incorrigibly wicked is eternal death (that is, to never live again) not eternal life being tortured. That is eternal punishment, not eternal punishing!

Ro.6:23 For the wages of sin is deathBUT the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Jo.3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish BUT have everlasting life.

Death or perishing is not speaking about life some where else doing something else.

There is only one being that would perpetuate the lie that God would torment people forever for one short life time of sin. That may be the way Satan would do things if he was in charge, but thank God Satan is not in charge, God is. Eternal punish-ING is Satan’s fate and he would like us to think it is our fate too.

You have expressed your opinion, but you have done nothing to establish it.

 

[Timothew]

It was a conversation I had with my priest months ago when this topic came up back then. I told him those who understand as you about the pagan beliefs of the soul/spirit and body. And this is what he told me. When I get a chance, I will research this information for you, if you'd like.

I'd love that! Thanks for taking the time. I will search out this info as well and report back to you.

 

[Timothew]

You have expressed your opinion, but you have done nothing to establish it.

The scripture he posted establishes it. Romans and John. There are many other scriptures supporting what RibI posted.

The wages of sin is death, BUT the gift of God is eternal life.

Whoever believes in Him will not perish BUT will have eternal life.

2 Choices, perish or have eternal life.

 

[razeontherock]

Interesting twist this thread has taken. Sounds like the modern re-make of "The Mummy"

 

[Timothew]

Interesting twist this thread has taken. Sounds like the modern re-make of "The Mummy"

Are you mocking our belief in the resurrection? Typical

 

[Dorothea]

I've never heard that the greeks believed their bodies would live without their pysches/pneumas. Can you show me a reference?

Also, what do you think of the verse I gave you in Matthew with regards of those long-dead coming out of the tombs after Christ's resurrection? What does that say to you?

How about Revelation 20:4-6? And Luke. We believe that in Luke 16:19-31, that Christ is speaking of just what we were discussing. The rich man's spirit is in the place where he waits for the Second Coming. As it says here:

Exposition of Luke 16:19-31
The place where departed conscious spirits of the dead await judgment

http://www.bible.ca/su-hades-luke16.htm

 

[Dorothea]

I'd love that! Thanks for taking the time. I will search out this info as well and report back to you.

Ah, there's a good word to describe the pagan belief - that the spirit and body are two separate entities. Yes, we do not believe that.

 

[Timothew]

Also, what do you think of the verse I gave you in Matthew with regards of those long-dead coming out of the tombs after Christ's resurrection? What does that say to you?
This says to me, Christ's resurrection is transferrable to us. Christ is the firstfruits of resurrection, these are resurrected as he was. They lived again, in the final resurrection all whom Jesus brought back to life, Lazarus, Talitha, all of the others will have eternal life when He returns.

How about Revelation 20:4-6?
This is part of John's Vision. How does it prove people without bodies live? Blessed and holy are those who are resurrected. I believe in the resurrection of the Body and the Life everlasting. These are inseparable, no body, no life. Resurrected body, life.

 

[Timothew]

Ah, there's a good word to describe the pagan belief - that the spirit and body are two separate entities. Yes, we do not believe that.

That's good, I don't believe that either. That's why I don't believe there is a separate spirit which lives apart from it's body. Yet you said "Living spirits indeed go Paradise." Apparently without their bodies.