Are contemporary services un-LCMS?

[RadMan]

Well I guess there are some things to think about. Personally I come to the throne boldly at any and all times. I see the Lord as my Father in whose presence I run to, hop on His lap and pour out my heart to daily. Stu, referred to the Queen of England. No doubt her subjects approach her with care but I imagine her children and family are much more close and relaxed and approach her with love and without fear or ceremony.
Just as I approached my earthly father with shame and contrition for making mistakes and held him in high esteem I never the less did not stand on ceremony nor believe that I was unloved or unforgiven until after he spoke words of forgiveness. I am his dearly loved child and always under his grace and protection. So too am I dearly loved by God and always under His grace and protection through Christ's attoning sacrifice.
I know my Catholic friends believe they are not forgiven or in a state of grace until after they go to confession and recieve communion and Heaven will indeed forbid them it they sin between confessions.
Guess I have more to learn about Lutheran's.

Is that like a "personal relationship" with God.

Luke 1:49-51 (New King James Version)

49 For He who is mighty has done great things for me,
And holy is His name.
50 And His mercy is on those who fear Him
From generation to generation.
51 He has shown strength with His arm;
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.

Acts 10:34-36 (New King James Version)

Preaching to Cornelius’ Household


34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. 36 The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all—


There is a lot more in the Bible about fearing the Lord. Not just to unbelievers but to believers.

 

[Tangible]

Well I guess there are some things to think about. Personally I come to the throne boldly at any and all times. I see the Lord as my Father in whose presence I run to, hop on His lap and pour out my heart to daily. Stu, referred to the Queen of England. No doubt her subjects approach her with care but I imagine her children and family are much more close and relaxed and approach her with love and without fear or ceremony.

When she is acting in her vocation of mother, grandmother, etc., I'm sure this is true - although I'm also sure that her household is still more formal than the average American household would be.

When she is acting in her vocation as Monarch, though, even her children and grandchildren must approach her with the proper protocol.

 

[TCat]

I think I have become a member of the wrong church. Perhaps I need to start looking elsewhere. Our family has been praying about it. I do have a relationship with Christ, I guess according to the Lutheran's that is not acceptable. I do spend time daily with the Lord and know that He is present a lot more often than during communion and that I am forgiven and free thru His grace whether I ever hear the words or partake of it or not.
Thank you all for your time and conversations.

 

[Studeclunker]

Well Cat, if you are so involved with the lightweight end of Christianity, perhaps you would be happier in a Reformed or maybe Pentacostal church. They're more experiantial related and might be just the ticket. Before you leave though, I would ask you to discuss this issue with your Pastor. There is so much more you can learn about the depth of God's Word by using both halves of the Bible. One reason so many Protestant churches are so lightweight or shallow is because they concentrate only on the New Testament and almost ignore the Old. In Paul's writings one can find constant referrences back to the Scriptures (Old Testament). He felt them to be important.

But if all you want to do is sing praise songs and hear light, positive sermons, then you might be much happier in the Protestant denominations.

 

[RadMan]

Well Cat, if you are so involved with the lightweight end of Christianity, perhaps you would be happier in a Reformed or maybe Pentacostal church. They're more experiantial related and might be just the ticket. Before you leave though, I would ask you to discuss this issue with your Pastor. There is so much more you can learn about the depth of God's Word by using both halves of the Bible. One reason so many Protestant churches are so lightweight or shallow is because they concentrate only on the New Testament and almost ignore the Old. In Paul's writings one can find constant referrences back to the Scriptures (Old Testament). He felt them to be important.

But if all you want to do is sing praise songs and hear light, positive sermons, then you might be much happier in the Protestant denominations.

With the way LCMS has slid so far in the last 10 yrs I'm not surprised at anything anymore. Mayb Tcat's church is just like he professes it to be.

 

[DaRev]

I think I have become a member of the wrong church. Perhaps I need to start looking elsewhere. Our family has been praying about it. I do have a relationship with Christ, I guess according to the Lutheran's that is not acceptable.

It sounds more like you have a realtionship with yourself before Christ. You can only have a relationship with Him on your own terms. For Lutherans, Christ comes first and foremost, before our own wants and desires.

I do spend time daily with the Lord and know that He is present a lot more often than during communion and that I am forgiven and free thru His grace whether I ever hear the words or partake of it or not.

I must be wonderful to be so assured of your sinlessness that you don't need to hear the word God freely gives to us or receive the gift of the very body and blood of Christ that He says to receive often for the forgiveness of our sins. I doubt very highly that you learned any of this from a Lutheran Church because we know better than that.

I will pray for you and your faith journey. My prayer is that, eventually, you will see the error of your thoughts on this and once again seek to hear and receive what God Himself, by His Holy Spirit, calls us together to hear and receive.

 

[TCat]

Actually I have tried to reach my pastor's for discussion but all 3 are just to busy to be bothered and have little time or desire to speak with members. I do love to sing praise songs but for me that is only a small part of my Christian walk. I feel led to being involved in a church that is so much more than a nice place to gather, hear a sermon and walk out the door feeling like I have absolution because I showed up at service and took communion. I need to be taught how to serve, encouraged in my faith, challenged to reach out to the lost and live a life that is righteous and glorifies God. Sadly this is not the case in my church. 2000 members with only a few dozen "doing everything". Teens dropping out as soon as they hit High School, Sunday School is a place for parents to leave the kiddos while they have coffee rather than igniting a passion for Jesus. Mens's Bible study that teaches the guys to forgive and be "nice guys" rather than boldy go forth into their communitites and raise the standards.
I am sick of being lukewarm in the LCMS, I was given my faith thru grace and directed to my church 8 years ago. I have overstayed my welcome by at least a year, trying to make my way there but my whole family is wilting on the vine at this point and we need to make a move.
Isn't there more to being a Christian than just attending the "right church"?

 

[DaRev]

Actually I have tried to reach my pastor's for discussion but all 3 are just to busy to be bothered and have little time or desire to speak with members. I do love to sing praise songs but for me that is only a small part of my Christian walk. I feel led to being involved in a church that is so much more than a nice place to gather, hear a sermon and walk out the door feeling like I have absolution because I showed up at service and took communion. I need to be taught how to serve, encouraged in my faith, challenged to reach out to the lost and live a life that is righteous and glorifies God. Sadly this is not the case in my church. 2000 members with only a few dozen "doing everything". Teens dropping out as soon as they hit High School, Sunday School is a place for parents to leave the kiddos while they have coffee rather than igniting a passion for Jesus. Mens's Bible study that teaches the guys to forgive and be "nice guys" rather than boldy go forth into their communitites and raise the standards.
I am sick of being lukewarm in the LCMS, I was given my faith thru grace and directed to my church 8 years ago. I have overstayed my welcome by at least a year, trying to make my way there but my whole family is wilting on the vine at this point and we need to make a move.
Isn't there more to being a Christian than just attending the "right church"?

Don't blame the whole LCMS for the faults of one congregation.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I think I have become a member of the wrong church. Perhaps I need to start looking elsewhere. Our family has been praying about it. I do have a relationship with Christ, I guess according to the Lutheran's that is not acceptable. I do spend time daily with the Lord and know that He is present a lot more often than during communion and that I am forgiven and free thru His grace whether I ever hear the words or partake of it or not.
Thank you all for your time and conversations.

It's not that having a "relationship" with Christ isn't acceptable.

it's when that relationship supercedes what we're taught. For example, many churches (charismatic and pentecostal come to mind) teach that if you don't "feel" the gospel you're not saved, or that if you don't have that one moment in life that defines your faith, you're probably not saved.

Once we start basing our salvation on our own feelings, we're in trouble.

And in answer to your question about attending the right church...it's important to attend a church that teaches sound Christian doctrine. A happy clappy church may make someone feel good about themselves and their faith, but they may still be walking away empty handed because the doctrine is not sound. So, yes, while there is more to Christianity than attending the "right" church, without that right church we lack the proper foundation to continue our walk with Christ.

 

[TCat]

Thanks for you encouragement Rev. and yes I do consider myself sinless before God because of the blood of Jesus which has covered and continues to cover my sins over and over. Do I sin, yes daily but I know that thru Him I am free of the condemnation and punishment that I certainly deserve.
Because I have been saved by His mercy and grace I feel a deep desire to share that with others, shout from the roof tops and love others into coing and seeing what He has done. At my current church few seem to be interested.

 

[Aibrean]

If you have 2000 members and the pastors are too busy, it's just the wrong congregation. Even though our previous congregation was no where near in that size, we actually downsized partly because of the humility factor in the church I wasn't feeling. Our current one is a lot smaller and it's the size that if a family member misses a Sunday, everyone asks where whey are.

 

[Zecryphon]

Actually I have tried to reach my pastor's for discussion but all 3 are just to busy to be bothered and have little time or desire to speak with members. I do love to sing praise songs but for me that is only a small part of my Christian walk. I feel led to being involved in a church that is so much more than a nice place to gather, hear a sermon and walk out the door feeling like I have absolution because I showed up at service and took communion. I need to be taught how to serve, encouraged in my faith, challenged to reach out to the lost and live a life that is righteous and glorifies God. Sadly this is not the case in my church. 2000 members with only a few dozen "doing everything". Teens dropping out as soon as they hit High School, Sunday School is a place for parents to leave the kiddos while they have coffee rather than igniting a passion for Jesus. Mens's Bible study that teaches the guys to forgive and be "nice guys" rather than boldy go forth into their communitites and raise the standards.

I am sick of being lukewarm in the LCMS, I was given my faith thru grace and directed to my church 8 years ago. I have overstayed my welcome by at least a year, trying to make my way there but my whole family is wilting on the vine at this point and we need to make a move. Isn't there more to being a Christian than just attending the "right church"?

This sounds exactly like what I experienced at my Non-Denominational Baptist based church, that I attended for 5 years prior to coming to the LCMS and now the WELS. My former ND church did actually teach that if you weren't serving in some capacity in the church, you weren't serving God. My former ND church had 10,000+ members and it seemed a minister for everything in the church. We had a minister of Men's Ministry, of the choir, of the Ladies Ministry, of Outreach, of Music, of Teens, the list goes on and on.

While walking through the campus one day after service, I was stopped in my tracks by the Holy Spirit and it was put on my heart to take a look around and really look at what I saw. I saw booths set up all over the main campus courtyard area. I saw off to the left, the Men's Ministry had a booth and they were handing out fliers and information on their latest golf or tennis tournament. Over to the left the Ladies were handing out information on their latest planned retreat up to Strawberry. At another booth, they were promoting their small groups and why you MUST be in one if you're not already. There was another booth, selling CD's and cassette tapes of previous sermons for $5 a pop. There was another booth promoting the exercise classes, another booth selling the Bible study they had for men and women. It looked like a carnival actually. Oh yeah there was the coffee and refreshment booth too.

I was asked to look beyond the surface, what was I seeing. I was seeing a church that claimed unity but broke everybody up into different groups based upon gender and interest. It also suddenly hit me that I could leave this church, as involved as I was, small group table leader for the new members class, did that three times, a volunteer in the teen ministry, and no one would ever notice. So I left, and no one did notice. Not one person whether pastor, elder or friend ever called me to see what had happened to me. I'm still on their mailing list. They still think I go to that church! It's unbelievable.

I would say if you need a different church, don't scrap the LCMS altogether, but try and find a more confessional LCMS church. One that focuses on the theology of the cross, instead of the theology of glory that it sounds like you've been receiving. I would say, from what you've described here that, yes you are in the wrong church, but it doesn't mean you're in the wrong denomination. In my experience and I'm sure others have had the same thing happen too, other denoms make the scriptures fit their theology instead of taking their theology from the scriptures. Both Lutheran churches I've attended have been Christ-centered and cross-focused. The focus was always on Christ and the sermons in the WELS church have always been law and gospel. In the LCMS church they tended to do series on how to be a better person, how to better manage your finances, etc. but it was all based upon scripture. In other churches such sermons are usually based upon personal experience or the hot selling Christian book at that time.

 

[BeccaFH]

TCat ~ I'm new to Lutheranism myself, and I found an essay from the Confessional Lutherans of Australia website to be helpful in understanding forgiveness and communion. Since I'm a new poster, I can't share the link directly. You can find it if you Google its title, "Holy Communion: Forgiveness or Assurance".

The following section differentiates between the achievement of forgiveness (on the cross) and the distribution of forgiveness (through the means of grace). It's from Luther's treatise "Against the Heavenly Prophets":

We treat of the forgiveness of sins in two ways. First, how it is achieved and won. Second, how it is distributed and given to us. Christ has achieved it on the cross, it is true. But he has not distributed or given it on the cross. He has not won it in the supper or sacrament. There he has distributed and given it through the Word, as also in the gospel, where it is preached. He has won it once for all on the cross. But the distribution takes place continuously, before and after, from the beginning to the end of the world. For inasmuch as he had determined once to achieve it, it made no difference to him whether he distributed it before or after….

[So] if now I seek the forgiveness of sins, I do not run to the cross, for I will not find it given there. Nor must I hold to the suffering of Christ, as Dr. Karlstadt trifles, in knowledge or remembrance, for I will not find it there either. But I will find in the sacrament or gospel the word which distributes, presents, offers, and gives to me that forgiveness which was won on the cross.

.

Another good section addresses the question: What about the other 6 days of the week when I'm not taking communion? Am I condemned all week until Sunday comes? Here's how that question is answered:

In response to the above someone might here ask: but the Lord’s Supper is not given ‘daily’ in our congregations, so what do we do for forgiveness for six days a week? Does sin ‘build up’? In answer one might first point out that it is likely that the sacrament was given ‘daily’ in the churches of the Reformation. But we must also remember that the Lord’s Supper is only one of the means of grace instituted by our Lord. The Smalcald Articles reminds us that forgiveness of sins, which is the content of the gospel, is given not only through the Lord’s Supper, but also through the spoken word of God (which includes the read and prayed words of Scripture), through baptism (and the application of its benefits through ‘daily’ repentance and faith), through ‘the power of the keys’ (that is, through confession and absolution, both private and public), and finally through ‘the mutual consolation of the brethren’ (SA III.IV). Somewhere Luther also refers to the petition ‘forgive us our sins’, which Christians pray ‘daily’, as an effective means of grace and a necessary plea for divine absolution, ‘for we sin every day and deserve nothing but punishment.’ It is true that only faith can receive divine forgiveness, and that God’s objective forgiveness precedes faith. But such faith must have something to latch onto.

This can be a lot to take in and understand, but it's worth keeping at and wrestling with and praying about. I wish you the best as you grow in your faith.

For those more experienced than myself ~ If this essay is in any way off-track or misleading, please let me know and explain why. I'm still learning myself and would like to understand better.

 

[Tangible]

Actually I have tried to reach my pastor's for discussion but all 3 are just to busy to be bothered and have little time or desire to speak with members. I do love to sing praise songs but for me that is only a small part of my Christian walk. I feel led to being involved in a church that is so much more than a nice place to gather, hear a sermon and walk out the door feeling like I have absolution because I showed up at service and took communion. I need to be taught how to serve, encouraged in my faith, challenged to reach out to the lost and live a life that is righteous and glorifies God. Sadly this is not the case in my church. 2000 members with only a few dozen "doing everything". Teens dropping out as soon as they hit High School, Sunday School is a place for parents to leave the kiddos while they have coffee rather than igniting a passion for Jesus. Mens's Bible study that teaches the guys to forgive and be "nice guys" rather than boldy go forth into their communitites and raise the standards.
I am sick of being lukewarm in the LCMS, I was given my faith thru grace and directed to my church 8 years ago. I have overstayed my welcome by at least a year, trying to make my way there but my whole family is wilting on the vine at this point and we need to make a move.
Isn't there more to being a Christian than just attending the "right church"?

"We Lutherans are subject to a special temptation. We have been so much assured that our standing with God is based entirely on God's free and undeserved love and not on any action of ours that the devil is right there to suggest: "Well, if it not based on any action of yours, your actions don't matter. You have a nice cushion to rest on there. You have complete forgiveness in Christ. So do as you please. You are always forgiven." There is no more hideous mockery of Christ and Calvary than that. Christ died in our place so we may not be condemned and punished for our sins. He takes all that for us so we may be forgiven and may know the living God as a God who graciously involves Himself with us and we with Him. Are we, then, to make of this the basis for a life that contradicts that we are involved with Him?" -- Dr. Norman Nagel, Selected Sermons, p. 348.

 

[Studeclunker]

Actually... I've found that when a congregation grows past, say five hundred members or so, it is in danger of losing touch with its membership. I find it very sad that our congregations don't work together better. This could be said to be true for all Lutheran Denoms. All the same, if they did, then it wouldn't be necessary to have huge congregations to support things like schools and Ministry work. It would also provide a better environment for the main job of the Church, which is equipping the Saints to spread the Word.

Now, I'm going to run and hide behind that biiiiig Oak tree before someone starts throwing rocks.

 

[alexnbethmom]

TCat - you've gotten some really wonderful advice and information "to chew on", that if i were to say anything i would just be repeating what has already been said....

i do want to re-iterate, though, please don't dismiss LCMS as a whole just because of one congregation....it sounds like this congregation has gotten so large that the pastors can't handle everything, which is so sad....the congregation i am part of has about 300 members (give or take a few), and any time i have questions, concerns, need a shoulder to cry on or someone to pray with or for me, all i have to do is pop in on my pastor or give him a call, and he is right there, johnny-on-the-spot....and i have attended more ND churches than i can even keep track of, and i honestly never felt welcomed in any of them, but this church has been warm, welcoming, friendly, encouraging, prayerful, from the very first moment i set foot in the door.....

please pray about it, try and talk to your current pastor, maybe seek out another LCMS church in the vicinity and speak to that pastor.....and just know that God is with you, and i will be praying for you, that God will guide you and direct you where He wants you to be.....

 

[DaRev]

Thanks for you encouragement Rev. and yes I do consider myself sinless before God because of the blood of Jesus which has covered and continues to cover my sins over and over. Do I sin, yes daily but I know that thru Him I am free of the condemnation and punishment that I certainly deserve.

So you don't feel any need to repent and confess the sins you committ daily? I honestly envy you if you can truly go about your life feeling no sorrow or guilt for the sins you committ against God. As for me, I am racked with guilt everytime I am confronted with my sins by the Law of God. I come before Him in humility and repentance, seeking His free grace for the sake of Christ who died for me. I do this because I know that I am unworthy of His grace and forgiveness. It's when I hear His word and receive His sacrament that I can rejoice in the assurance of His grace. I can't simply go about life thinking "well, Christ forgives me anyway, so I don't need to repent or receive His means of grace in humility."

Because I have been saved by His mercy and grace I feel a deep desire to share that with others, shout from the roof tops and love others into coing and seeing what He has done. At my current church few seem to be interested.

That's a congregational issue, not a synodical issue. Besides, is there anything stopping you from sharing your faith in Christian service aside from the congregation? Are there not other folks in the church that you can get together with and initiate some sort of activity to share the faith in the community?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

So you don't feel any need to repent and confess the sins you committ daily? I honestly envy you if you can truly go about your life feeling no sorrow or guilt for the sins you committ against God. As for me, I am racked with guilt everytime I am confronted with my sins by the Law of God. I come before Him in humility and repentance, seeking His free grace for the sake of Christ who died for me. I do this because I know that I am unworthy of His grace and forgiveness. It's when I hear His word and receive His sacrament that I can rejoice in the assurance of His grace. I can't simply go about life thinking "well, Christ forgives me anyway, so I don't need to repent or receive His means of grace in humility."

I never got the impression that was what she was saying. To be honest, I certainly don't mope around on the days that I'm not in church receiving absolution. I don't think people should. I think we should feel our guilt and our remorse, but it's not something we need to beat ourselves up over time and again. If you want to do that, fine, but don't cast dispersions at the people who don't live their life that way.

I'd rather focus on what Jesus did for me rather than what I haven't done for Jesus. That, after all, was the whole point of Jesus dying on the cross.

(of course, that's not to say we have license to sin...)

That's a congregational issue, not a synodical issue. Besides, is there anything stopping you from sharing your faith in Christian service aside from the congregation? Are there not other folks in the church that you can get together with and initiate some sort of activity to share the faith in the community?

I agree with this, but I also think that TCat's church is just far too big. I get the feeling that TCat feels like a needle in a haystack and it's made worse by the fact that no one seems to be searching for her.

 

[DaRev]

I never got the impression that was what she was saying. To be honest, I certainly don't mope around on the days that I'm not in church receiving absolution. I don't think people should. I think we should feel our guilt and our remorse, but it's not something we need to beat ourselves up over time and again. If you want to do that, fine, but don't cast dispersions at the people who don't live their life that way.

I'd rather focus on what Jesus did for me rather than what I haven't done for Jesus. That, after all, was the whole point of Jesus dying on the cross.

(of course, that's not to say we have license to sin...)

What I hear her saying in the last couple of posts on this subject is that she feels no need to approach God in humility. I didn't mean for it to sound as though we should be beating ourselves up. But when we go to the Divine Service we do so with broken and contrite hearts to confess our sins and receive His means of grace. This is one of the reasons that Confession & Absolution is done at the very beginning of the service, so that we can rejoice in the assurance of the forgiveness of our sins, made sure through the hearing of those words "your sins are forgiven." I know that I'm forgiven by His death and resurrection, but it sure feels good when I hear that repeated week after week.

I agree with this, but I also think that TCat's church is just far too big. I get the feeling that TCat feels like a needle in a haystack and it's made worse by the fact that no one seems to be searching for her.

There was a time when larger congregations like that were encouraged to split into daughter churches. Super large congregations can become jungles where one can feel lost amid the crowd.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

What I hear her saying in the last couple of posts on this subject is that she feels no need to approach God in humility. I didn't mean for it to sound as though we should be beating ourselves up. But when we go to the Divine Service we do so with broken and contrite hearts to confess our sins and receive His means of grace. This is one of the reasons that Confession & Absolution is done at the very beginning of the service, so that we can rejoice in the assurance of the forgiveness of our sins, made sure through the hearing of those words "your sins are forgiven." I know that I'm forgiven by His death and resurrection, but it sure feels good when I hear that repeated week after week.

Yes, it surely does feel good to hear that repeated. It also feels good to believe it when I ask for forgiveness at any point in time outside of church.

Obviously I am not inside TCat's head, but to me her posts came off as saying that she didn't want to feel as though she had something with God simply because she attended church that week.

There was a time when larger congregations like that were encouraged to split into daughter churches. Super large congregations can become jungles where one can feel lost amid the crowd.

My home church, the one I grew up in, had at one point in time 1500 communicant members. At that time, they had two pastors and usually got a vicar in and there were A LOT of elders and council members to help out. These days, the rosters are large, but not that large, they're down to one pastor because of money but there's still lots of elders and council members to help. When I was in regular attendance there, if I had an issue or if I wanted to do something, all I had to do was talk to the pastor or the council president or even just my dad, and the ball was rollin.

TCat needs to find that kind of church, I think.