Are contemporary services un-LCMS?

[TCat]

I don't want to High jack a thread but I am confused and although I know this issues has been discussed to DEATH I would like to gain more insight into this topic pls.
In the thread regarding the Seminary and pietsm it appears that there is an attitude which suggests that there is something wrong with and even un-LCMS about blended or contemporary services. Correct me if I am wrong but is that the sentiment I am getting? Traditional services do not define Lutherans do they?
I have thought that LCMS is defined by theology, the way the Bible is understood, the way of Grace and Gospel and Law are defined. Not by the style of music or manner of worship service is practiced.
Am I incorrect or missing something here?
Pls no flaming I really am trying to understand this thing. My church has many services through out the week both traditional and contemporary and I enjoy certain aspects of them both.

 

[Tangible]

If you've got some time to read, this does a great job of laying it out. (And don't miss out on the comments below the article.)

Steadfast Lutherans » In Defense of Historical Worship – From a Former Advocate of Contemporary Worship, by Pastor Sean L. Rippy

 

[QuiltAngel]

Contemporary services are allowed. The thing is, it is hard to do a contemporary service and keep it Lutheran. Many times, the songs used center on me, not Christ and what He has done. When the focus becomes me, then we are not keeping it Lutheran.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[DaRev]

There is a Latin phrase that is often used when speaking about CW, "lex orandi, lex credendi". It basically means "how we worship is how we believe". Our worship practices must line up with what we hold, teach, and confess as a church body.
Contemporary worship styles have their origins in non-denom traditions that focus more on the believer than on the One in whom we believe. They are done mostly for sensation and stirring up emotion. Traditional liturgical worship, on the otherhand, is fully Christ-centered, where we are called by the Spirit to come before God with broken and contrite hearts in a spirit of humility as unworthy sinners and God gives to us His gifts of mercy, forgiveness, faith and life through the means of grace of word and sacrament. The liturgy is the vehicle by which the means of grace are delivered to us.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi is a rather accurate and apt phrase. Liturgical prayer involves a very in-depth set of symbolism, beliefs, and prayer. It basically means, that whatever manner, and words we pray and symbolism in our prayer, reflects our doctrine, theology, beliefs---and ultimately shows and determine what our faith is and what our religion consists of. Liturgy conveys the grace of God. Liturgy shows the core---the "essence" of what one believes as a Christian.

To my view:
This is my private view: Non-liturgical services simply do not in the same measure or even quite at all, convey the same depth or even much depth at all, as liturgies do. Lack of form, and spontaneity often belies a "spontaneity" or anarchic undertone or state of beliefs that can potentially be in a rather grave state of flux or too fluidic, with regards to the culture (i.e. It varies with the culture, as it oftentimes "contemporary" things and aspects are often tied to). [Not debating, serving my own personal opinion, regarding liturgies and non-liturgical services. That is all. Feel free to disagree, I will not debate. ]

Pax
-Virgil

 

[TCat]

I guess I have not been to many styles of CW, really only a couple outside of my own church and have really only attended traditional worship a hand ful of times at my own church so perhaps I am underinformed as to good vs bad worship styles.
I have not given much thought to the idea that worship might be made to be about self rather than God, seems pointless to attend church if that is the case.
One the other hand, and this perhaps because I have not been a Lutheran for long, I did not realize that one is to enter into the church as a broken, contrite, unworthy sinner. I do understand coming before the Lord in humility and with gratefulness but as one who has recieved His Mercy and Grace and that having been accomplished once and for all at the cross I stand free from the convictions and condemnations of sin. A sinner and a saint at the same time who is free to praise and adore the Lord with a grateful grace filled spirit.
Maybe I've not got it right here.

 

[JTornado1]

The choir director tried to introduce some contemporary Christian music to the worship service, and I could tell the pastor could barely stand it. We now pretty much stick to the hymnal.

 

[TCat]

LOL JTornado that is the way I feel about most hymns. I can barely stand them, not the content or words but the music makes me cringe. I love to sing but...that being said, when hymns are put into different arrangements I love them. My CW leaders do a wonderful job with A Mighty Fortress, Come Thou Fount Of Every Blessing, and many others.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

There is a Latin phrase that is often used when speaking about CW, "lex orandi, lex credendi". It basically means "how we worship is how we believe". Our worship practices must line up with what we hold, teach, and confess as a church body.
Contemporary worship styles have their origins in non-denom traditions that focus more on the believer than on the One in whom we believe. They are done mostly for sensation and stirring up emotion. Traditional liturgical worship, on the otherhand, is fully Christ-centered, where we are called by the Spirit to come before God with broken and contrite hearts in a spirit of humility as unworthy sinners and God gives to us His gifts of mercy, forgiveness, faith and life through the means of grace of word and sacrament. The liturgy is the vehicle by which the means of grace are delivered to us.

Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi is a rather accurate and apt phrase. Liturgical prayer involves a very in-depth set of symbolism, beliefs, and prayer. It basically means, that whatever manner, and words we pray and symbolism in our prayer, reflects our doctrine, theology, beliefs---and ultimately shows and determine what our faith is and what our religion consists of. Liturgy conveys the grace of God. Liturgy shows the core---the "essence" of what one believes as a Christian.

To my view:
This is my private view: Non-liturgical services simply do not in the same measure or even quite at all, convey the same depth or even much depth at all, as liturgies do. Lack of form, and spontaneity often belies a "spontaneity" or anarchic undertone or state of beliefs that can potentially be in a rather grave state of flux or too fluidic, with regards to the culture (i.e. It varies with the culture, as it oftentimes "contemporary" things and aspects are often tied to). [Not debating, serving my own personal opinion, regarding liturgies and non-liturgical services. That is all. Feel free to disagree, I will not debate. ]

Pax
-Virgil

It seems you two are on the same page as I am.

Liturgically there have always been adaptations and innovations from the very beginning of the Church; yet the "core" has been maintained. A good example would be western vs. eastern liturgies. An other good example would be in our own LSB where we have 5 different settings of the Mass; yet all maintain "Doctrinal Integrity".

Can Doctrinal integrity still be maintained when contemporary music is integrated into the Liturgy? Sure, providing that such music complies with our doctrinal standards. Will everyone like it? Nope.

Luther was never much for change just for the sake of change. He and our confessions remind us that "changing" things, even when they do not harm doctrine can cause "scandal" and "offense". Such cautions have, it would seem have often been overlooked of late.

We must also be mindful that the use of officially "approved" worship forms protect the Church from being misled into error.

An old Pastor of mine, in defense of traditional Liturgical practices always said that in the event that he ever had a bad sermon, the Gospel message is still present and taught, and Our Lord's most gracious gifts are given and received, through the Liturgy as Word and Sacrament. Can't argue with that.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

Agreed, Mark.

 

[DaRev]

I did not realize that one is to enter into the church as a broken, contrite, unworthy sinner. I do understand coming before the Lord in humility and with gratefulness but as one who has recieved His Mercy and Grace and that having been accomplished once and for all at the cross I stand free from the convictions and condemnations of sin. A sinner and a saint at the same time who is free to praise and adore the Lord with a grateful grace filled spirit.
Maybe I've not got it right here.

It is in the Divine Service where we receive the Means of Grace and are set free from the convictions and condemnations of sin. These are things that we need frequently because we sin against God frequently. It's a bit tough to praise and rejoice for something that we have not yet received in the service.

 

[Tangible]

Check this out, starting about 6:55. Pr Fisk gives a good explanation of why CW is not appropriate, even though pianos and organs and the style of hymn music might not be our thing.

YouTube - Tax Collector Gaiden

 

[Aibrean]

Not allowed? Well then the church we used to attend certainly is breaking the rules. They don't use the LSB at all.

I think it's a congregational preference.

I hate contemporary.

 

[TCat]

DaRev, have I got it wrong, were our sins not ALL paid for at the Cross, once and for all eternity? Are we not saved by God's grace thru Christs' act of sacrifice and the penalty been paid? Are we not to enter into His house with thanksgiving and praise and secure in the knowledge that IT IS FINISHED?
How can one not praise and be thankful and filled with praise and joy knowing that we are NOT under condemnation whether we are recieveing communion now or ever again. It is finished is it not?

 

[Aibrean]

"feel good" music lacks any kind of substance.

 

[DaRev]

DaRev, have I got it wrong, were our sins not ALL paid for at the Cross, once and for all eternity? Are we not saved by God's grace thru Christs' act of sacrifice and the penalty been paid? Are we not to enter into His house with thanksgiving and praise and secure in the knowledge that IT IS FINISHED?
How can one not praise and be thankful and filled with praise and joy knowing that we are NOT under condemnation whether we are recieveing communion now or ever again. It is finished is it not?

Do you never sin? Are you not in need of God's forgiveness? Do you not need God's means of grace?
I don't know about you, but when I enter into God's house I do so in reverence and humility. I need to hear the words "your sins are forgiven" every time. I need to receive the sacrament often. I need to hear the Law applied to my life, and then hear the Gospel assurance that I am saved by the blood of Christ. While it's true that we are saved by the one-time atoning sacrifice of Christ, I am not worthy of His grace. Therefore, I approach Him in humility with contrition and repentence. When I have heard those words and received His free gifts in the Divine Service, then I can rejoice that I have been made right with Him.

 

[LilLamb219]

What is the main reason for wanting "contemporary"? That's a question I ask.

Of course it is allowed and CAN be Lutheran...but will it remain Lutheran?

 

[Tangible]

Which more closely resembles this passage: CW or Historic Liturgy?

Heb 12:18 For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest 19 and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them. 20 For they could not endure the order that was given, “If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.” 21 Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.” 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

25 See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven. 26 At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.” 27 This phrase, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of things that are shaken—that is, things that have been made—in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, 29 for our God is a consuming fire.

 

[Studeclunker]

Which more closely resembles this passage: CW or Historic Liturgy?


28 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, 29 for our God is a consuming fire.

You know Tanj, I think the whole thing (for the sake of this discussion) boils down to the above statement.

I often find that we here in the United States are really at a disadvantage when it comes to the knowledge of approaching Christ properly. You see, we are Citizens of a Republic. Christ is a King of a Kingdom of which we are also subjects. There is a vast difference between the two. One does not approach the Sovereign Lord without proper speech and behaviour. Even if one is a member of that sovereign's family, as we are with Christ. After all, is He not the King of Kings, Lord of Lords? Therefore, approaching his presence should include the proper protocols required for the situation. As Lutherans we believe in Real Presence. Therefore after the Pastor has pronounced the words of institution (or there-abouts) Christ is not only spiritually present but Physically as well. Thus, when we approach the altar, should we not show due respect to the Lord of Lords and King of Kings?

Now, don't get me wrong, I have no problem with a praise service from time to time. They can be a lot of fun. However, in the case of Contempo services, the praise service replaces the service of the Word. This is getting things out of wack. Especially when this is the setting for the sharing of our Lord's body and blood, which he willingly sacrificed for us. One does not, at any time, approach a soveriegn Lord capriciously.

Thus, the Liturgy is our protocol for approaching the intimate presence of our Soverign. We have the priviledge of an intimate relationship with this personage that any Briton would envy, if for instance it was the Soverign of England. Still, they have no need for such envy as they also have this priviledge with a greater King than their Queen. In fact, even She would prostrate herself before Jesus (Joyfully, I might add)!! I seriously doubt that Elizabeth would hesitate in pride for a microsecond. Thus, if She would do so, how could we do any less?

Where am I going with all this folderol? Simply this; a contempo service is a great time to praise and celebrate our salvation and express our gratitude for the Lord's incomparible sacrifice. It is not a proper or correct order of service for worship, however. Nor is a Contempo Service an adequate replacement for a Liturgical Worship Service. It's simply not the Lutheran way.

That's my two-bits for what little it's worth.

 

[TCat]

Well I guess there are some things to think about. Personally I come to the throne boldly at any and all times. I see the Lord as my Father in whose presence I run to, hop on His lap and pour out my heart to daily. Stu, referred to the Queen of England. No doubt her subjects approach her with care but I imagine her children and family are much more close and relaxed and approach her with love and without fear or ceremony.
Just as I approached my earthly father with shame and contrition for making mistakes and held him in high esteem I never the less did not stand on ceremony nor believe that I was unloved or unforgiven until after he spoke words of forgiveness. I am his dearly loved child and always under his grace and protection. So too am I dearly loved by God and always under His grace and protection through Christ's attoning sacrifice.
I know my Catholic friends believe they are not forgiven or in a state of grace until after they go to confession and recieve communion and Heaven will indeed forbid them it they sin between confessions.
Guess I have more to learn about Lutheran's.