Are 1 John 2:2 and John 3:36

[MWood]

Then why do we need to be reborn? Why repent? Why isn't universalism true? Where there is no transgression, there is no law, right? Then why are we still sinners?

Because our bodies are still flesh and blood. And we sin.

 

[98cwitr]

Because our bodies are still flesh and blood. And we sin.

But everyone's sin is covered, right? So how is said sin still effective for our damnation?

 

[MWood]

But everyone's sin is covered, right? So how is said sin still effective for our damnation?

Where does this question come from?

 

[twin1954]

Where does this question come from?

Perhaps to put it in a more simple perspective: How is it that those whose sins are covered are damned to Hell forever? What is it that condemns one to Hell if the blood of the Lord Jesus has put away their sin?

 

[classicalhero]

He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. - 1 John 2:2

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. - John 3:36

I have heard 1 John 2:2 used as a proof text for unlimited atonement for years. So if "whole world" means every person who ever lived, then it stands to reason that God's wrath was satisfied for every person who ever lived. In other words, no wrath against mankind.

However, John 3:36 states that those who do not obey the Son have God's wrath remaining on them. It doesn't say God's wrath returns to them. It remains. Hence, it never left. That would mean that there are some people whose sins were not propitiated for.

If this is the case, then it's reasonable to believe that the whole world in first John means people from every tongue, tribe and nation, which is an acceptable definition.

The first verse is talking about what Jesus did on the cross. he provided a sacrifice that satisfies the demands of God. But to be part of this you have believe that Jesus is your saviour. This call call is open to all but not all accept this call. Because of this, those who haven't accept Jesus as their personal saviour are under th threat of God's wrath. Jesus took away God's wrath ( he appeased it because he lived a sinless life), so now that there is th potential for us to no longer live under God's wrath we should take.

 

[98cwitr]

Where does this question come from?

Assessment from post #12 in context of what I quoted.

 

[98cwitr]

The first verse is talking about what Jesus did on the cross. he provided a sacrifice that satisfies the demands of God. But to be part of this you have believe that Jesus is your saviour. This call call is open to all but not all accept this call. Because of this, those who haven't accept Jesus as their personal saviour are under th threat of God's wrath. Jesus took away God's wrath ( he appeased it because he lived a sinless life), so now that there is th potential for us to no longer live under God's wrath we should take.

Oh so it doesn't cover all sin...it only has the potential to cover all sin. Is that about right?

 

[TaylorSexton]

Oh so it doesn't cover all sin...it only has the potential to cover all sin.

That is the Arminian view of the atonement which, ironically, is a severely limited atonement. What is so often called "limited atonement" is in reality not limited at all, since the atonement was only ever meant for God's elect. Thus, the Reformed "limit" (for lack of a better term at the moment) the extent of the atonement, but not its power. (I say again that this is not limitation, since the atonement by definition is only made and intended only for those who believe, and no one else. How can one limit something that is limited by definition?) The Arminian limits (in a very real sense) both the power (because, as you rightly asked, it only gives the potentiality for atonement for sin) and the extent (because, after all, the Arminian still believes only a few will be saved) of the atonement of Christ—which, if the Arminian position is true, is really no atonement at all, because it did nothing for anyone.

 

[Job8]

However, John 3:36 states that those who do not obey the Son have God's wrath remaining on them. It doesn't say God's wrath returns to them. It remains. Hence, it never left. That would mean that there are some people whose sins were not propitiated for.

No that is not what it would mean. Christ has taken away the sin of the world on the Cross, but every sinner must acknowledge (a) that he is indeed a sinner on the way to Hell, (b) that Christ is the only way to God, and (c) that he must not continue in his sins and idolatry but repent and receive Christ as his own Lord and Savior.

The atoning work of Christ is efficacious only for those who repent and believe, and are born again. The wrath of God abides on those who reject the Gospel and reject Christ, since for them there is no sacrifice for sins. To understand John 3:36, we must read the whole third chapter of John and keep this verse in context.

The Serpent of Brass (Jn 3:14) was there for all who had been bitten and needed to be delivered from certain death. But only those who looked upon that Serpent in faith as God's provision for their deliverance would be delivered. That Brazen Serpent was a type of Christ on the Cross.

 

[twin1954]

No that is not what it would mean. Christ has taken away the sin of the world on the Cross, but every sinner must acknowledge (a) that he is indeed a sinner on the way to Hell, (b) that Christ is the only way to God, and (c) that he must not continue in his sins and idolatry but repent and receive Christ as his own Lord and Savior.

So every sinner must do something to be saved? That sounds like a works salvation to me.

The atoning work of Christ is efficacious only for those who repent and believe, and are born again. The wrath of God abides on those who reject the Gospel and reject Christ, since for them there is no sacrifice for sins. To understand John 3:36, we must read the whole third chapter of John and keep this verse in context.

So the Lord didn't actually do anything but only made a stab at it? We make His blood to have power when we do something? Does this not actually make the love of God meaningless?

The Serpent of Brass (Jn 3:14) was there for all who had been bitten and needed to be delivered from certain death. But only those who looked upon that Serpent in faith as God's provision for their deliverance would be delivered. That Brazen Serpent was a type of Christ on the Cross.

Agreed. Whosoever will let him come. We wholeheartedly believe in whosoever will. We just don't believe in whosoever will not. All who truly want salvation already have it. Those who do not want it don't care. They do not think that they need it. All who came to the Lord seeking mercy found it but not all came to Him. There were multitudes of sick people on those five porches at the pool of Bethesda in John 5. But only one was healed and he didn't actually seek the Lord the Lord sought him.

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. - 1 John 2:2

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. - John 3:36

I have heard 1 John 2:2 used as a proof text for unlimited atonement for years. So if "whole world" means every person who ever lived, then it stands to reason that God's wrath was satisfied for every person who ever lived. In other words, no wrath against mankind.

However, John 3:36 states that those who do not obey the Son have God's wrath remaining on them. It doesn't say God's wrath returns to them. It remains. Hence, it never left. That would mean that there are some people whose sins were not propitiated for.

If this is the case, then it's reasonable to believe that the whole world in first John means people from every tongue, tribe and nation, which is an acceptable definition.

I believe in all the five points of Calvinism, including Limited Atonement. However, I must recognise that Limited Atonement is the one that is the least explicit in the Bible, and the one which would appear to have more evidence against it.

Nevertheless, the concept is still there. If Unlimited Atonement were true, then all those who are in Hell would have their sins redeemed. If so, why are they in Hell? If the price for their sin has been paid by Jesus, then why are they themselves paying for it again? Furthermore, why would God cause Jesus to bear the sins of all people in the world, when he could save his precious Son up to 99% of that suffering (or even more) by causing him to die only for the elect, which are the only ones for whom the atonement would have any effect?

In John 10:14-15, Jesus says, ‘I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me — just as the Father knows me and I know the Father — and I lay down my life for the sheep.’ Whilst this verse does not explicitly say that Jesus died only for his sheep, it makes clear the purpose of his death. Clearly, he died for his sheep; that is the whole point.

Meanwhile, surely, as you say, 1 John 2:2 could be interpreted to mean ‘people from all around the world’.

 

[Job8]

So every sinner must do something to be saved? That sounds like a works salvation to me.

What were the first words of Christ when He began to preach? REPENT! So if you believe that sinners are automatically saved, you should go back and study the Gospel very carefully. Repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ are the two essential conditions for salvation (Acts 20:21). These are not "works" as you mistakenly believe, but they are the appropriate responses to the Gospel. Study Acts chapter 2.

 

[classicalhero]

Oh so it doesn't cover all sin...it only has the potential to cover all sin. Is that about right?

There is a universal call but not all will accept that call. Jesus provided to cover all the sins of the world but you must be in Christ Jesus to get the protection. His sacrifice satisfied God wrath, but you need to believe in Jesus for God to protect you.

 

[Job8]

If Unlimited Atonement were true, then all those who are in Hell would have their sins redeemed. If so, why are they in Hell? If the price for their sin has been paid by Jesus, then why are they themselves paying for it again?

This is typical human logic (which of course disregards Divine logic). Here's the reason why sinners are consigned to Hell (Jn 3:16-21; 35,36):

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. [IS THIS LIMITED ATONEMENT?]

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. [IS THAT LIMITED ATONEMENT?]

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [REASON FOR ETERNAL DAMNATION]

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. [REASON FOR ETERNAL DAMNATION]

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. [REASON FOR ETERNAL DAMNATION]

21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God...

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. [REASON FOR ETERNAL DAMNATION]

 

[98cwitr]

There is a universal call but not all will accept that call. Jesus provided to cover all the sins of the world but you must be in Christ Jesus to get the protection. His sacrifice satisfied God wrath, but you need to believe in Jesus for God to protect you.

And that requires faith, which is from God...so doesn't God choose who will and will not have faith?

 

[classicalhero]

We have free will. "For whomsoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." It is pretty simple concept you must believe on the name of the Lord Jesus to have the blessing of Salvation.

 

[98cwitr]

^^^Let's get that into context, shall we? Not all those who call Him "Lord" shall enter the kingdom, but those who do the will of the Father. Now, how would someone know the Father's will unless they are a child of God?

There is a universal call but not all will accept that call. Jesus provided to cover all the sins of the world but you must be in Christ Jesus to get the protection. His sacrifice satisfied God wrath, but you need to believe in Jesus for God to protect you.

And why dont they accept the call?