Answering Questions on Creation and Creationism

[Breckmin]

And I am telling you that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is factual.

PROVE ME WRONG

The difference is, you are not claiming that the FSM is an Infinite
Personal Existence beyond the dimensions of time and space, capable
of such creation. You are merely pointing to something that we all know
is ridiculous and saying "prove me wrong."
We have scientific observation that spaghetti does not fly unless it
is perhaps on a plane or a jet. There is no brain function with
spaghetti, etc. We already know it is axiomatic that spaghetti is
not responsible for the code in RNA and DNA.

Besides, proof requires honesty on the part of the person you are
trying to prove something to.

If someone is not willing to admit that a schematic blue print
needs a Designer or an Originator, then you will NOT be able to
prove anything to that individual. Proof requires honesty.

I am going to provide a more thorough explanation of why I do
NOT believe ERV's are proof for common ancestry, I just want
to check something first. To me, it IS exactly what we would
expect, and that was my first reaction, but that doesn't mean
the ERV's originated any place but separately. But let me check
something.

~Michael

 

[Tomk80]

Information is the product of something.

But not of more information. It arises out of natural processes.

God by very definition is not the "product" of anything so this is a pseudo arguement.
IOW, God is not "intelligence." Being intelligent is a discription.

No, declaring God beyond something by fiat is a pseudo argument. Your just positing another assertion without any evidence or supporting reasoning.

But I do enjoy the philosophical consistency of where this is headed. Please feel free to keep going.
~Michael

 

[Breckmin]

For example: http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Doi=14966



Robertsonian fusions occur in humans too. If the fusion is "balanced" (meaning that there is no change in the amount of genetic material) it has no effects. If it is "unbalanced", resulting in less or more genetic material, it often produces birth defects.

Thank you, Tom.
~Michael

 

[paug]

The difference is, you are not claiming that the FSM is an Infinite Personal Existence beyond the dimensions of time and space, capable of such creation. You are merely pointing to something that we all know is ridiculous and saying "prove me wrong." We have scientific observation that spaghetti does not fly unless it is perhaps on a plane or a jet. There is no brain function with spaghetti, etc. We already know it is axiomatic that spaghetti is not responsible for the code in RNA and DNA.

Besides, proof requires honesty on the part of the person you are trying to prove something to.

If someone is not willing to admit that a schematic blue print
needs a Designer or an Originator, then you will NOT be able to
prove anything to that individual. Proof requires honesty.

Are you being serious?! You provide just as much backing for your claim as does CL. The FSM has just as much empirical evidence as does any other God.

Prove me wrong. Why couldn't the FSM have designed the mRNA and DNA code? Do everything else that you attribute to your God?

I claim that the FSM is an Infinite Personal Existence beyond the dimensions of time and space, capable of such creation. We all know the FSM is just as "ridiculous" as is your God.

Once again, PROVE ME WRONG.

 

[Breckmin]

Information does NOT need a source. It has been shown many many times that under certain conditions, pre-existent compounds can rearrange as to form a sequence that can relay or constitute information.

And what traits will these predict? You get the point. Those are
far from the complexity we see in RNA and DNA and you know it.

You are blinded by the ignorance bestowed to you by your priest and pro-creation sources for "information" on evolution. You're the posterchild for them - sucking in the phrases (in this case: Information necessitates a creator or author) and reciting them without reservation.

E: CL beat me to it.

You did not explain how the living cell doesn't point somewhere either.

~Michael

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

The difference is;l

There is no difference; I am claiming everything for the FSM as you are for your imaginary deity. Now prove to me, your god is more realistic and mine.

 

[Breckmin]

Like I said, this is completely unfruitful. I would love to stay to tear apart the FSM.
I've debated him before. It is not that difficult.

I'll be back for a quick one on ERV's and maybe a philosophical argument on "intelligence."

But I don't believe I should be here to just debate. Thanks again Tom for
the link.
~Michael

 

[paug]

You did not explain how the living cell doesn't point somewhere either.

~Michael

You're shifting the goalposts. I proved to you that information does not require an intellegent creator as per your God.

If you have another question to ask, please do.


And I'd like to hear what you have to say with regard to "tearing up" the FSM.

 

[AV1611VET]

I claim that the FSM is an Infinite Personal Existence beyond the dimensions of time and space, capable of such creation. We all know the FSM is just as "ridiculous" as is your God.

Once again, PROVE ME WRONG.

Is the FSM endorsed by an entire nation? Did the FSM leave a book behind that wrote that nation's history in advance, and fulfilled it with 100% accuracy (so far)? A book that is the earth's #1 bestseller? Can you ask a little child who the FSM is and get the answer?

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

Is the FSM endorsed by an entire nation? Did the FSM leave a book behind that wrote that nation's history in advance, and fulfilled it with 100% accuracy (so far)? A book that is the earth's #1 bestseller? Can you ask a little child who the FSM is and get the answer?

No entire nation endorses any individual deity.

No book was left behind by the ancient Bronze Age Israelites; it was like all good myths passed word to mouth, unless you have a original under your bed, but of course you have a bad translation, of a bad translation etc of the original with is no longer with us.

The same is true of the gospels; NONE were written at the time of Jesus or by anyone who knew Jesus, again they are the parodies past by word of mouth.

What nations history in advance !!!!!!!

100% accurate

My children know who the FSP his, and there had to be a first child to know your imaginary deity.

 

[AV1611VET]

No entire nation endorses any individual deity.

​

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

What you are saying there are no people of other religions in the USA. and let's not get on to seperation of religion and state.

 

[AV1611VET]

What you are saying there are no people of other religions in the USA. and let's not get on to seperation of religion and state.

I'm saying the United States of America endorses God.

​

 

[agentorange20]

The commonalities between chimpanzees and humans are always expected,

By evolution yes, it's implied in the whole 'descent with modification' bit. But why with the designer did it hypothesis should it be expected or for them to share any commonalities, after all they were independently created right?

but we do not share common ancestry.

Based on objective analysis of all the evidence, I am afraid we do. If all you can offer in retort is but we do not share common ancestry', well that won't cut it bub, you'll need to explain and in details why this position is justifiable.

Creationists would expect the same positions because of the chromosomes and what we have always seen as God's Trademark in creation.

No, you're overlooking how the chromosome 2 fusion is a prediction based on evolution and descent, there is no reason for why a creator would have to or want to make it just appear like our 2nd chromosome is a the result of a head to head fusion, unless you're implying he intentionally did so to leave more evidence for evolution.

So Gods trademark in creation includes leaving tell tale signs of a shared genetic past, one in which it is plain and obvious to anyone with a novice understanding in biology? Again, this be must a deceptive God then.

This doesn't prove common ancestry at all. I'll post more on
it later.

Yes, indeed do, this time preferably with some ya know details and substance, something objective and tested.

 

[agentorange20]

But the difference is we actually know murders themselves take place

So? We know a murder has taken place, this in science would be a fact. Other facts about the murder, the who, where, when, how, why can thus be determined using overwhelming and consistent evidence. Disagree?

Same thing in science theories. Sure we never directly observed for instance the fusion event in the great ape line, though we know it occurred based on what empirical evidence it left behind (extra set of telomeres in the middle and inactive centromeres). Both these are empirical facts, and the model of evolution explains them and why they are as they are. Disagree, if so, at where?

and we know people who eye witness them and we have some killings on tape.

True, but not always. Eyewitnesses aren't really all that accurate either, many times we get conflicting details and under emotional states some details are better remembered than others. It's a mixed bag at best.

Not all or most murders aren't recorded or witnesses directly either, they are built on evidence. I was attempting to draw an anaology so you could unerstand how investigative work and deducution of logica is used in theories.

We do not have evidence for these kinds of mutations.

Sure we do, I gave you an example as did others list them in mice and species in horses and donkies. Try to at least do the research before placating ignorance.

The morphological difference in the slightly over 1% variance alone shows how vast that 1% is.

Regardless of what a 1% genetic or morphological differences are, there is no question that with respect to biological similarities both Chimps and Bonobos are closer to us than they are to their next closest species, the Gorilla.

Commonalities do not equal relatedness, as I will explain later.

Yeah.....one of these days we'll get to some of your details.....one of these days....

 

[paug]

Is the FSM endorsed by an entire nation?

No; is the Bible? (Even if true, appeal to masses)

Did the FSM leave a book behind that wrote that nation's history in advance, and fulfilled it with 100% accuracy (so far)?

I'm sorry, I must have missed that bit in the Bible.

A book that is the earth's #1 bestseller?

Ad verecundiam - is rice the best food in the world?

Can you ask a little child who the FSM is and get the answer?

Depends on where the child is from. Do you think, if you tell a little child that the Christian God is behind all of this, that 1. He will be able to consider the alternatives himself and 2. It will matter worth _____ what this little kid then says if asked about the emergence of the universe?

 

[paug]

I'm saying the United States of America endorses God.

What do you mean by "United States of America"?

 

[agentorange20]

I refuse to leave common sense behind. We do not share
common ancestry with chimpanzees, and they are actually a
gift to us to teach us that we are created in God's Image.
But they are VERY much like us biologically.
It is unwise to abandon common sense.
~Michael

How many times are you going to say we don't share common ancestry without actually defing the details, and evidence for the logical reasoning on this position? Sorry, but just merely decrying it as so doesn't make it so, and common sense is often wrong.

 

[agentorange20]

Well,I also do not feel called to debate this right now, so I will cut this long, but short by not debating.

You don't feel called b/c you don't understand the subject material. To infer this is a debate would involve both parties holding a position and backing each up with well supported and logically sound evidence, so far you're lacking in the evidence part. You haven't laid out ANY evidence based reasons regarding ERV's, why start now,?

I see the consistency in the mechanisms
that I know are cursed and I know many of them are dormant or
have no use,

We went over this already. With respect to genes they are either used and preserved or not and mutated over time and become pseudogenes, how hard is this to comprehend?

but I do not assume that at one time there was not a purpose for them.

With regards to current pseudogenes they WERE in the past fuctional, though now mutations have make them defunct. Again, review the GULO gene and how we and extant apes all share it and its in the share identical location.

Once again, "curse" is the answer to what
is petitio principii here.

Evidence some 'curse' can do whatever you're trying to explain? Thought not... Though with mutations we know they can disactivate previously functional genes or copies of them. Again, a perfectly natural process and explination is supported via evidence and you deny it, pathetic.

We can't test mutations we don't observe taking place around us. IOW, mutations that we actually know DO take place.

But we do, and have, and can, go to PloS for a change, plenty of articles on it.

I know everyone is hungry to debate a creationist who will actually start laying out some evidence and supporting it,

No chance of that here though...any day now, right?

but even if I start to go that route I'm not sure there is going tobe a change here.

You wont know till you try bucko, try supporting your claims with evidence for a change.

I would love to stay and actually start debating. It used to be favorite past time to engage point for point.

But it seems when supporting your claims with evidence is required you fold.

But I do not feel "called" (if you can understand that from a religious point of view) to do this right now,

Translation: 'I can't really support my position with any level of consistent evidence, so, I will fold.'

and it is obvious that I need to break out some old texts, or look stuff up online, but I just don't have time to study these
different viruses and retroviruses right now.

If it's so obvious to you, and us, that you lack sufficient understanding with regards to ERV's and genetics in general, why on Earth would you make any assumptions on their processes to begin with?

 

[agentorange20]

The difference is, you are not claiming that the FSM is an Infinite Personal Existence beyond the dimensions of time and space, capable of such creation.

Fine, lets hypothetically assume the FSM is infinite and capable like all other Gods, after all Gods in any shape and supernatural form can have whatever powers the people making them up desire in the first place, so where is the difference and where does it get us? SSDD there.

You are merely pointing to something that we all know is ridiculous and saying "prove me wrong."

He's drawing an analogy, one in which the FSM is equally as ridiculous as any other possible god, they are, for all the same reasons worthless for the efforts related to how science works.

We have scientific observation that spaghetti does not fly unless it is perhaps on a plane or a jet.

But we can just say the FSM wishes not to be seen, or that his/her magical powers defy this natural law, so in the end it makes no difference as this is the same arguement used by other theists for why Jesus asended into the clouds or how mohammed acended on a winged horse. Same BS answer.

There is no brain function with spaghetti, etc.

There is also no brain function in dead organisms, but hey, don't tell that to those who 'know' that a soul exists and can defy this rule by infering that souls of dead things have an active mind and are concsious.