Another Mistake by Joseph Smith

[RufustheRed]

"The spirits in the eternal world are like the spirits in this world. When those have come into this world and received tabernacles, then died and again have risen and received glorified bodies, they will have an ascendency over the spirits who have received no bodies, or kept not their first estate, like the devil. The punishment of the devil was that he should not have a habitation like men. The devil's retaliation is, he comes into this world, binds up men's bodies, and occupies them himself. When the authorities come along, they eject him from a stolen habitation. (Teachings, p. 305)

Does this apply to the godhead or does it not? If all three members of the Godhead, according to Mormonism, is like us (as God is ...) this proclamation by J. Smith makes no such exceptions. After all isn't God an exalted man?

Rufus

 

[Zechariah]

In other threads, I was told that because of the atonement, all of mankind was/is redeemed. If we are redeemed, how and when did we become fallen beings?



Rufus

Man inherits a fallen condition when he is born into this fallen world, by which he is subject to sin and death. If man was not in this fallen state, he would not need a Savior to redeem him from it.

 

[RufustheRed]

Man inherits a fallen condition when he is born into this fallen world, by which he is subject to sin and death. If man was not in this fallen state, he would not need a Savior to redeem him from it.

Okay. Now I'm confused (a little). LDS do not believe in original sin, but do believe that all will succumb to the way of the devil. Is that correct? While the children under eight may be influenced by Satan, they are not accountable for their actions. However, the minute that they turn eight years of age, they are accountable for the sins that they haven't committed. Correct?

The question now is just when do we enter into this "fallen state?" Oh, I see. You said that when we are born into this fallen world. Sorry. I read your post too quickly.

So let's do this again. Children under the age of eight not accountable for any sins that they may commit, however, they are considered to be in a fallen state. I'm sorry, but THAT sounds like original sin ... almost.

Well, anyway. Thank you for your time. I'm not sure that I understand being redeemed but fallen simultaneously, but will continue to peruse these posts in an attempt to figure it out.

Rufus

 

[SoftSpoken]

Okay. Now I'm confused (a little). LDS do not believe in original sin, but do believe that all will succumb to the way of the devil. Is that correct?

If they are both capable of being accountable and they reach the age of accountability.

While the children under eight may be influenced by Satan, they are not accountable for their actions.

This is not what we believe. Children are not influenced by Satan until they begin to be accountable.

"But behold, I say unto you, that little children are redeemed from the foundation of the world through mine Only Begotten; Wherefore, they cannot sin, for power is not given unto Satan to tempt little children, until they begin to become accountable before me;" (D&C 29:46-47)
​

However, the minute that they turn eight years of age, they are accountable for the sins that they haven't committed. Correct?

Not at all, actually. If you'll note from the verses above, children begin to become accountable at age eight. They gradually become accountable over time, and at some point become wholly accountable for their sins. So even a child that is 8, 9, 10, 11 or thereabouts, does not have to account for sins he has not committed, nor for sins committed against knowledge that he does not yet fully possess. We have to remember—it is imperative that we remember—that Christ has the power to set the terms of mercy. He has paid for all sins—the complete price. Justice has absolutely no claim on any of us, except under the conditions Christ has set in place. So Christ extends perfect mercy to small children, and does not just flip a switch at age eight, but gradually allows a child to adjust to his accountability, continuing to extend mercy in abundant amounts as the child learns and grows.

The question now is just when do we enter into this "fallen state?" Oh, I see. You said that when we are born into this fallen world. Sorry. I read your post too quickly.

So let's do this again. Children under the age of eight not accountable for any sins that they may commit, however, they are considered to be in a fallen state. I'm sorry, but THAT sounds like original sin ... almost.

Well, anyway. Thank you for your time. I'm not sure that I understand being redeemed but fallen simultaneously, but will continue to peruse these posts in an attempt to figure it out.

Rufus

Does my addition here help clear any of this up? Hope so.

 

[Rescued One]

Our Father taught us the plan in our pre-earthly life. He gave us free agency to choose for ourselves whether or not we would accept the plan. The fact that we are here on the earth with physical bodies is prima facie evidence that we did accept it.

However, others of God’s children chose not to accept the plan. Led by Lucifer, they rebelled against our Father and sought to gain power and glory through force. They were defeated in this attempt and were cast out of the Father’s presence. They are here upon the earth without physical bodies. They are still led by Lucifer, who became Satan, the devil. They are not involved in developing godly potentials; rather, they are continually struggling to influence man to misuse the resources and to disobey the instructions of our Father. Even more insidious is their relentless influence to deceive man into doing nothing with the resources and remaining ignorant of the instructions. Through this influence have come sin and transgression: sins of commission and sins of omission.

We refer to the instructions the Father has given us as commandments. It is because of sin and the transgression of these commandments that man becomes sensual, devilish, and fallen man. (See D&C 20:20.)

“Fallen man” means that man is subject to death and separation from God. When death comes to the physical body, the spirit body lives on, separated from the presence of God. Thus, the condition of fallen man is death and separation.
William R. Bradford, “How Do You Know?,” Ensign, Nov. 1983, p. 68

Zechariah says:
"Man inherits a fallen condition when he is born into this fallen world, by which he is subject to sin and death. If man was not in this fallen state, he would not need a Savior to redeem him from it."

Zechariah's statement seems inaccurate according to what William R. Bradford said (It is because of sin and the transgression of these commandments that man becomes sensual, devilish, and fallen man). Yet, it may be that William R. Bradford is the one who erred.

Little children are redeemed from the fall. Do these children lose that redemption as soon as they are capable of and commit sin? Or are they already fallen as D&C 20:20 states?

“But by the transgression of these holy laws man became sensual and devilish, and became fallen man.”
D&C 20:20

Central to the gospel of Jesus Christ is the plan of redemption. God gave His children commandments that they “should love and serve him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being whom they should worship.” (D&C 20:19.) By the transgression of these holy laws came the Fall; “wherefore, the Almighty God gave his Only Begotten Son.” (D&C 20:21.)
William R. Bradford, “How Do You Know?,” Ensign, Nov. 1983, p. 68

We have been told that the Fall occurred when Adam partook of the fruit, yet D&C states:

18 And that he created man, male and female, after his own image and in his own likeness, created he them;
19 And gave unto them commandments that they should love and serve him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being whom they should worship.
20 But by the transgression of these holy laws man became sensual and devilish, and became fallen man.
21 Wherefore, the Almighty God gave his Only Begotten Son, as it is written in those scriptures which have been given of him.
D&C 20:18-21

Did Adam break more than one law?

 

[SoftSpoken]

Thank you for your thoughts.

How many Gods are there in heaven?

You are asking a question to which you already know the answer. Therefore you get none from me.

"That which is without body, parts and passions is nothing. There is no other God in heaven but that God who has flesh and bones. John 5:26. As the Father hath life in himself, even so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself. God the Father took life unto himself precisely as Jesus did."
Teachings, p.181

"All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not. The devil has no power over us only as we permit him."
Teachings, p. 181

So how can the Holy Ghost have power over Satan if he has no body?

The Holy Ghost has a spirit body. He is a personage of Spirit. (D&C 130:22) And He is part of the Godhead, which has complete control over Satan. (Rev. 12:9; Moses 4:3) Satan cannot tempt men without God's consent. (D&C 29:47; 101:28)

Where does it say that man does not have power over all beings without a body?

I don't know.

 

[Rescued One]

Thank you for your thoughts.
How many Gods are there in heaven?

You are asking a question to which you already know the answer. Therefore you get none from me.

Well, the LDS teaching is that there are three Gods and they are separate beings. However, the Holy Ghost is said to have no physical body and Joseph Smith taught that those who have a physical body have power over those who don't. So the Holy Ghost is at a disadvantage if Joseph Smith spoke the truth.

The Holy Ghost has a spirit body. He is a personage of Spirit. (D&C 130:22) And He is part of the Godhead, which has complete control over Satan. (Rev. 12:9; Moses 4:3) Satan cannot tempt men without God's consent. (D&C 29:47; 101:28)

The LDS idea of Godhead is that there are three separate beings. And one of them has no glorified body of flesh and bones.

How many Gods are there in heaven?

"That which is without body, parts and passions is nothing. There is no other God in heaven but that God who has flesh and bones. John 5:26. As the Father hath life in himself, even so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself. God the Father took life unto himself precisely as Jesus did."
Teachings, p.181

"All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not. The devil has no power over us only as we permit him."
Teachings, p. 181

So there are two Gods in LDS heaven but the Holy Ghost is "nothing" according to Joseph Smith; and also, according to Joseph Smith, the Holy Ghost is not in heaven.

 

[SoftSpoken]

Well, the LDS teaching is that there are three Gods and they are separate beings. However, the Holy Ghost is said to have no physical body and Joseph Smith taught that those who have a physical body have power over those who don't. So the Holy Ghost is at a disadvantage if Joseph Smith spoke the truth.

See. You already had an answer. Why do you ask questions when you have answers to them already?

The LDS idea of Godhead is that there are three separate beings. And one of them has no glorified body of flesh and bones.

Thanks.

So there are two Gods in LDS heaven but the Holy Ghost is "nothing" according to Joseph Smith; and also, according to Joseph Smith, the Holy Ghost is not in heaven.

The Holy Ghost has a body. He has a spirit body. (D&C 130:22) This is now the second time I have said that. He has body parts, just as the pre-mortal Christ had body parts. (Ether 3:15-16) He is not nothing. And I believe that you are misunderstanding Joseph Smith's other statement. It is clear that his comment was spoken to contrast the common understanding that God that Father in the Trinitarian view is without body, parts or passions. He was speaking specifically of God the Father, not of the entire Godhead.

 

[Zechariah]

Our Father taught us the plan in our pre-earthly life. He gave us free agency to choose for ourselves whether or not we would accept the plan. The fact that we are here on the earth with physical bodies is prima facie evidence that we did accept it.

However, others of God’s children chose not to accept the plan. Led by Lucifer, they rebelled against our Father and sought to gain power and glory through force. They were defeated in this attempt and were cast out of the Father’s presence. They are here upon the earth without physical bodies. They are still led by Lucifer, who became Satan, the devil. They are not involved in developing godly potentials; rather, they are continually struggling to influence man to misuse the resources and to disobey the instructions of our Father. Even more insidious is their relentless influence to deceive man into doing nothing with the resources and remaining ignorant of the instructions. Through this influence have come sin and transgression: sins of commission and sins of omission.

We refer to the instructions the Father has given us as commandments. It is because of sin and the transgression of these commandments that man becomes sensual, devilish, and fallen man. (See D&C 20:20.)

“Fallen man” means that man is subject to death and separation from God. When death comes to the physical body, the spirit body lives on, separated from the presence of God. Thus, the condition of fallen man is death and separation.
William R. Bradford, “How Do You Know?,” Ensign, Nov. 1983, p. 68

Zechariah says:
"Man inherits a fallen condition when he is born into this fallen world, by which he is subject to sin and death. If man was not in this fallen state, he would not need a Savior to redeem him from it."

Zechariah's statement seems inaccurate according to what William R. Bradford said (It is because of sin and the transgression of these commandments that man becomes sensual, devilish, and fallen man). Yet, it may be that William R. Bradford is the one who erred.

Little children are redeemed from the fall. Do these children lose that redemption as soon as they are capable of and commit sin? Or are they already fallen as D&C 20:20 states?

“But by the transgression of these holy laws man became sensual and devilish, and became fallen man.”
D&C 20:20

Central to the gospel of Jesus Christ is the plan of redemption. God gave His children commandments that they “should love and serve him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being whom they should worship.” (D&C 20:19.) By the transgression of these holy laws came the Fall; “wherefore, the Almighty God gave his Only Begotten Son.” (D&C 20:21.)
William R. Bradford, “How Do You Know?,” Ensign, Nov. 1983, p. 68

We have been told that the Fall occurred when Adam partook of the fruit, yet D&C states:

18 And that he created man, male and female, after his own image and in his own likeness, created he them;
19 And gave unto them commandments that they should love and serve him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being whom they should worship.
20 But by the transgression of these holy laws man became sensual and devilish, and became fallen man.
21 Wherefore, the Almighty God gave his Only Begotten Son, as it is written in those scriptures which have been given of him.
D&C 20:18-21

Did Adam break more than one law?

Phoebe. LDS, myself, and others before me, have discussed this with you a number of times in the past, yet you persist with the same things, over and over, as if you don't know the answers.

Little children are innocent, but they have still been born into a fallen world, and, as a result, are subject to the conditions of the fall, which they cannot save themselves from, anymore than can the guilty.

Now, as Softspoken has already pointed out, God has said that little children, "cannot sin, for power is not given unto Satan to tempt little children, until they begin to become accountable before me," and being not yet capable of understanding right from wrong, they are guiltless before God, and, in their innocence, having broken no law, they are alive in Christ. Therefore, if they die in their innocence, they are redeemed by the pure mercies of Christ, without any need for repentance, or baptism for the remission of sins, as they have committed no sin.

Even so, having been born into a fallen world, all mankind, even the innocent, is subject to the death of the body, which is one of the conditions of the fall. Therefore, all mankind, even the innocent who have no need to be under the demands of justice, still have need of Christ, in order to be redeemed from this fallen state.

 

[Rescued One]

See. You already had an answer. Why do you ask questions when you have answers to them already?

You could show me where my answer is wrong if it were.

The Holy Ghost has a body. He has a spirit body. (D&C 130:22) This is now the second time I have said that. He has body parts, just as the pre-mortal Christ had body parts. (Ether 3:15-16) He is not nothing.

Satan also has a spirit body just as we did in the pre-existence. He, too, was a child of Heavenly Father according to LDS teachings.

 

[Rescued One]

Phoebe. LDS, myself, and others before me, have discussed this with you a number of times in the past, yet you persist with the same things, over and over, as if you don't know the answers.

Little children are innocent, but they have still been born into a fallen world, and, as a result, are subject to the conditions of the fall, which they cannot save themselves from, anymore than can the guilty.

Now, as Softspoken has already pointed out, God has said that little children, "cannot sin, for power is not given unto Satan to tempt little children, until they begin to become accountable before me," and being not yet capable of understanding right from wrong, they are guiltless before God, and, in their innocence, having broken no law, they are alive in Christ. Therefore, if they die in their innocence, they are redeemed by the pure mercies of Christ, without any need for repentance, or baptism for the remission of sins, as they have committed no sin.

Even so, having been born into a fallen world, all mankind, even the innocent, is subject to the death of the body, which is one of the conditions of the fall. Therefore, all mankind, even the innocent who have no need to be under the demands of justice, still have need of Christ, in order to be redeemed from this fallen state.

Thank you.

So tell us, did Adam break more than one law?

 

[SoftSpoken]

You could show me where my answer is wrong if it were.

You know it is incorrect. You are not posting either your questions or comments with an eye toward good faith discourse, so you will get no response from me. Why don't you point out to everyone where your statement inaccurately represents the LDS position. I've corrected this very error twice now, and I will not do it again.

Satan also has a spirit body just as we did in the pre-existence. He, too, was a child of Heavenly Father according to LDS teachings.

Indeed.

 

[Ran77]

Well, the LDS teaching is that there are three Gods and they are separate beings. However, the Holy Ghost is said to have no physical body and Joseph Smith taught that those who have a physical body have power over those who don't. So the Holy Ghost is at a disadvantage if Joseph Smith spoke the truth.

I am enjoying the verbal prestidigitation that is going on in this thread. Offer an argument and then when we see the coin is still in your hand, throw in a little flash powder to obscure things.

As always, it is important to read in context. Joseph makes an opening statement that those with a physical body have power over those who don't and then goes on to give a better definition of what he meant by power. What is happening here, is the original wording is used and the expanded understanding of it is ignored. Saying that someone has power over someone else can much more readily be turned into a statement with some shock value as opposed to the understanding that those with bodies can only be given influence of spirits to the amount which they allow. The second is not nearly as dramatic in presentation and that is why we have a continued reliance on the first, and more ambigous, part of this doctrinal statement.

If Joseph Smith made a mistake then what needs to be expressed is how the notion that - we can only be influenced by the amount which we will allow - is in error. That is where the argument lies. So let's hear some real arguments directed to the real doctrine.

So there are two Gods in LDS heaven but the Holy Ghost is "nothing" according to Joseph Smith; and also, according to Joseph Smith, the Holy Ghost is not in heaven.

This is a misrepresentation of what LDS believe. Joseph Smith made no comment about the Holy Ghost in this. What you have suggested has been introduced by you. It is your invention to make Joseph Smith sound heretical.

If arguments can't be made against LDS doctrine that actually use LDS doctrine then they are no more than hollow words.

 

[Ran77]

LDS source:

Members of the Church may have the blessing of the Holy Ghost, the prompter, as a companion as well, and when the Holy Ghost is really within us, Satan must remain without. Study of the scriptures, prayer, faithful living of the commandments of the Lord, the discharge of church obligations and duties, being a considerate neighbor, and using the heaven-sent program of family home evenings can provide a basis for having the Holy Ghost as a constant companion and protector, which will result in peace and happiness.
ElRay L. Christiansen, “Power Over Satan,” Ensign, Nov. 1974, p. 22

I asked for a Bible source.

Even so, this does not state that the Holy Ghost has power over satan. This can be understood that as we build a stronger relationship with the Holy Ghost, we deny satan the ability to influence us.

Bible on God's omnipotence and power over Satan:


How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
Acts 10:38



The devil may take people captive, but God(Father, Son, Holy Ghost) can deliver them:

24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
2 Timothy 2:24-26

None of which state what you previously claimed.

 

[Wrigley]

In mortality, we have the same power over the Holy Ghost as we do over the devil. Neither one of them has any power to force us to do anything. Satan tempts, the Spirit prompts, but neither can actually force his will upon us.

Here is where there is a huge divide between Christian doctrine and Mormon doctrine. In Christianity, the Holy Spirit IS God, here we see in Mormon doctrine, the Holy Spirit can't be god since he's equal to the satan. Even more proof is the first sentence, "In mortality, we have the same power OVER the Holy Spirit as we do over the devil." If one can't see how this gives man power over God, I don't what more one needs to see.

 

[RufustheRed]

You are asking a question to which you already know the answer. Therefore you get none from me.

By posting this response, you answered her question. Better if you said nothing, IMO.

 

[RufustheRed]

You know it is incorrect. You are not posting either your questions or comments with an eye toward good faith discourse, so you will get no response from me.

And the purpose of your post is what??? To say that you won't respond? You just did.

Rufus

 

[SoftSpoken]

Here is where there is a huge divide between Christian doctrine and Mormon doctrine. In Christianity, the Holy Spirit IS God, here we see in Mormon doctrine, the Holy Spirit can't be god since he's equal to the satan.

That is not the docrtrine at all. You've take a statement that says that embodied spirits have power over unembodied ones, and you've twisted it to mean that the Holy Ghost and Satan are equal. I'm sorry, but that's neither true, nor is it LDS doctrine. It is your own conclusion and I personally reject it.

Even more proof is the first sentence, "In mortality, we have the same power OVER the Holy Spirit as we do over the devil." If one can't see how this gives man power over God, I don't what more one needs to see.

Agency is power, is it not? God gives us this power, and respects it. In your version of Christianity, do you have power to make choices? If so, is there any situation in which God will override that power against your will? If there is not, do you not have power over God? And do you believe there are any instances in the Bible in which Christ could not do something he would have otherwise done, because of the power of the agency of man?

Thanks.

 

[BarryK]

You know it is incorrect. You are not posting either your questions or comments with an eye toward good faith discourse, .

WOW!!!!
you have the ability to se into the hearts and intents of others.
The last time I checked, only God has that ability.
When did this change?

 

[SoftSpoken]

WOW!!!!
you have the ability to se into the hearts and intents of others.
The last time I checked, only God has that ability.
When did this change?

God can grant this ability to anyone at His will. But to be clear, that is not what has happened here. I am using my God-given right to judge, and fully expect that this judgment I employ will be meted back to me as I have employed it.