Anglican church apologises for sex abuse

[RileyG]

That celebacy is the direct cause of the problem or that married clergy is automatically a solution is way too simplistic - as demonstrated more than amply by some of the Salvation Army instances.

However, that doesn't mean that in the case of the Catholic Church a seminary formation and clergy support system that is formed around single men, mostly ones who entered the system in early adulthood, might not be a factor in some of the particulars. That's a possibility that needs very careful examination, not a handwaving dismissal.

Forgive me, I'm confused. The men entering the seminary ARE put under careful examination- unfortunately some are corrupt. There are corrupt priests and archbishops, no one is denying that, God will certainly not let them go unpunished for their terrible sins which cry to heaven for vengeance....

God Bless

 

[ebia]

Forgive me, I'm confused. The men entering the seminary ARE put under careful examination- unfortunately some are corrupt. There are corrupt priests and archbishops, no one is denying that, God will certainly not let them go unpunished for their terrible sins which cry to heaven for vengeance....

God Bless

There is some evidence that seminary formation in some seminaries was at least part of forming people who would be a problem, along with lack of support and guidance in forming appropriate close relationships.

Hopefully thats no longer the case, but unless the issue is openly examined there is a danger that there is still an issue.

 

[MikeK]

No person should ever commit a sex crime against a child. It is worse for a Catholic Priest, whom we tell our children they must meet with in private at least once per year and share their most intimate indiscretions with if they don't wish to be tortured for eternity and whom we tell our children have specially blessed hands uniquely able to cooperate with God in turning bread and wine into the body and blood of the divine, to commit such an act than for a mere errant protestant preacher, schoolteacher, coach or scout leader. The Catholics who gleefully point at other groups and say "look, they molest children too!" miss the point entirely. We alone have been given the Truth, we have no excuses for behaving in any way but the most exemplary.

Unfortunately, we've been given the Truth and we squandered it. Our divorce rate isn't markedly lower. Our clergy are about as likely, depending on which study you read, as other authority figures are to molest children. We steal from our Churches about as often as people steal from their secular employers. We are about as likely to contraceptives others. We are about as likely to procure abortions as others are. We are as likely to be poor stewards as others are. Instead of resorting to 3rd grade behavior and pointing out that some other kids are chewing gum in class too, we should really stop and contemplate why we individually and collectively behave so poorly even though we claim to love God and we claim to believe that He will condemn us to a place of eternal torture if we don't sincerely repent.

 

[RileyG]

There is some evidence that seminary formation in some seminaries was at least part of forming people who would be a problem, along with lack of support and guidance in forming appropriate close relationships.

Hopefully thats no longer the case, but unless the issue is openly examined there is a danger that there is still an issue.

ok

 

[FlaviusAetius]

Instead of resorting to 3rd grade behavior and pointing out that some other kids are chewing gum in class too, we should really stop and contemplate why we individually and collectively behave so poorly even though we claim to love God and we claim to believe that He will condemn us to a place of eternal torture if we don't sincerely repent.

Gee, maybe it's because Christianity as a whole has become little more than a cultural attachment that Western society is just barely learning to let go of? Maybe it's because the so-called all powerful God who claims to love us as individuals shows no evidence of his existence. So why fear the big scary furnace in the earth when God despite all of his pride never shows humanity proof of his existence?

More and more I believe most Christians who claim to believe have less faith than my own openly agnostic god-hating self. They look at a picture of what they believe to be God, add their own morality into it and claim that's God.

 

[New Legacy]

Gee, maybe it's because Christianity as a whole has become little more than a cultural attachment that Western society is just barely learning to let go of? Maybe it's because the so-called all powerful God who claims to love us as individuals shows no evidence of his existence. So why fear the big scary furnace in the earth when God despite all of his pride never shows humanity proof of his existence?

God shows us Himself all the time if we are open to it.

People should fear the conscience of evil acts and what is does to them, regardless of whether or not God exists.

 

[gerbilwoman]

Glad they apologized. They said "We cannot do anything other than own up to our failures." It's great to own up to failures but I feel there is more they need to do, such as prevent future abuse and continue to support organizations that help survivors.

 

[MikeK]

Gee, maybe it's because Christianity as a whole has become little more than a cultural attachment that Western society is just barely learning to let go of? Maybe it's because the so-called all powerful God who claims to love us as individuals shows no evidence of his existence. So why fear the big scary furnace in the earth when God despite all of his pride never shows humanity proof of his existence?

More and more I believe most Christians who claim to believe have less faith than my own openly agnostic god-hating self. They look at a picture of what they believe to be God, add their own morality into it and claim that's God.

I do not understand your bitterness. As a Catholic who follows the Church, I have reason to trust in The Lord so I am happy. Were I agnostic, I'd admit my doubts, take some comfort on what the Church teaches about those who diligently seek Him, and I'd be happy. Were I an atheist, I'd conclude that I had nothing but this life, and that so long as I breathed I would elect to be happy. Virtually every post you type is one of bemoaning and angst. I think for a little while you should quit focussing on how miserable the world is and start focussing on how miserable you've decided to be.

 

[FlaviusAetius]

I think for a little while you should quit focussing on how miserable the world is and start focussing on how miserable you've decided to be.

I bemoan because I'm sick of praising God like a dumb sheep for tossing humanity into a cesspool, creating the most abominable things that can naturally occur to a human, and then demanding us to make sure that our soul isn't tainted by his cesspool upon death or else he'll send us to a permanent place of suffering.

People like you dig their heads in the sand and say that happiness is all that matters, it doesn't matter how ugly the world gets. We can live under the Anti-Christ in Neo-Babylon, none of it matters so long as it doesn't effect your little bubble.

 

[New Legacy]

I bemoan because I'm sick of praising God like a dumb sheep for tossing humanity into a cesspool, creating the most abominable things that can naturally occur to a human, and then demanding us to make sure that our soul isn't tainted by his cesspool upon death or else he'll send us to a permanent place of suffering.

People like you dig their heads in the sand and say that happiness is all that matters, it doesn't matter how ugly the world gets. We can live under the Anti-Christ in Neo-Babylon, none of it matters so long as it doesn't effect your little bubble.

You see what you choose to see. Hell isn't for those that have been tainted, hell is for those that wish to live in despair. Something you seem to be familiar with.

 

[FlaviusAetius]

You see what you choose to see. Hell isn't for those that have been tainted, hell is for those that wish to live in despair. Something you seem to be familiar with.

For such a loving and present God, it seems strange that most people will join me on the path to Hell doesn't it? I mean since God is so obviously present in the world why do so many choose instead to live in "despair"? Oh wait, it's not people choosing, it's people being forced into a place of suffering because we weren't made as perfect obedient robots like our oh so loving Creator requires of us.

 

[New Legacy]

For such a loving and present God, it seems strange that most people will join me on the path to Hell doesn't it?

According to whom? People go to hell because they want nothing to do with love. They enjoy misery.

I mean since God is so obviously present in the world why do so many choose instead to live in "despair"? Oh wait, it's not people choosing, it's people being forced into a place of suffering because we weren't made as perfect obedient robots like our oh so loving Creator requires of us.

People live in despair, hatred, evil, and so on because they choose not to see the good. They'd get a great job, but bemoan it because they didn't get what they wanted. Nothing is ever good enough for them.

 

[FlaviusAetius]

According to whom? People go to hell because they want nothing to do with love. They enjoy misery.

How about Jesus? That good enough for you?

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

People live in despair, hatred, evil, and so on because they choose not to see the good. They'd get a great job, but bemoan it because they didn't get what they wanted. Nothing is ever good enough for them.

Right, your analogy is completely the same as worshiping a God who does nothing for humanity until after death when it's conveniently kept secret from the rest of the sheep.

 

[New Legacy]

How about Jesus? That good enough for you?

I missed the part where most people go to hell.

Right, your analogy is completely the same as worshiping a God who does nothing for humanity until after death when it's conveniently kept secret from the rest of the sheep.

God does a lot for humanity. What is your problem exactly? It's not religious, somethings up with you.

 

[FlaviusAetius]

But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Catholicism has two final ends, Heaven or Hell. Purgatory is a temporary place and is basically just a per-emptive extension of Heaven.

If the narrow gate leads to life (Heaven) and few find it then what does that mean? It means that most find the wide road that leads to destruction (Hell).

God does a lot for humanity. What is your problem exactly? It's not religious, somethings up with you.

Maybe I just hate people, even without God's help. Admittedly I feel the belief in God helped place a hateful emphasis on certain groups of people, but humanity and the world we've been granted is one either an uncaring universe or a malevolent god would create.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Catholicism has two final ends, Heaven or Hell. Purgatory is a temporary place and is basically just a per-emptive extension of Heaven.

If the narrow gate leads to life (Heaven) and few find it then what does that mean? It means that most find the wide road that leads to destruction (Hell).

Just before Jesus says talks about the narrow gate He talks about how if you ask for something it will be given to you. The ones who end up in Hell are ones who would not want to be in Heaven. There are plenty of people today who will even tell you that they would not want to go to Heaven. God knows this about them. So He grants them their wish if they die that way. God could have made us as robots, but He chose to give us free will. And with that free will we are free to make a choice between Heaven or Hell. God is love and goodness itself. All things that are good come from God. But the Devil tries to convince people that God and His laws are evil so that they will then start to believe that the Devil and Hell are good. It just so happens that more will choose Hell than Heaven because most people allow themselves to be deceived by the Devil.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

That's because it was at the height of the so-called "sexual revolution" era where sexual morality was rejected by pop culture. Unfortunately, sexual immorality is at another peak in society except that now it's even worse than it was in the 60's and 70's.

Aw, c'mon LWU you're better then this.

Sexual abuse has been going on forever. We just got to the point were, as a society, we were open enough to actually acknowledge and deal with it.

And I, personally, am sick and tired of the whole "everyone else is doing it why do they pick on the Catholic Chruch" meme that's so popular on this board.

If I tired that in a confessional just how far would I get ?

We need to deal with this problem, we need to admit it's been a problem for a long time (People who've seen the records say at least since 800 ADP and we need to come to the grips with the fact that it's considered to be worse when it happens in the Catholic Church because of the sacramental nature of the church. Priests are different. We claim they are different. We claim they are marked on their soul and can hold sins forgiven and turn bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ.

When these guys step out of line, it's different than your typical TV preacher dude stepping out of line.

It just is.

and you know what ?

It should be, if we believe what we claim to believe about Holy Orders

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Sexual abuse has been going on forever.

Do you have a statistic to go with that generalized claim? Because the John Jay study identified a peak period. "The initial study pinpointed the timeline when the abuse crisis was at its peak, roughly from the mid-1960s to the mid-1980s" and "A review of the narratives of men who were seminarians in the 1950s, and of published histories of the seminaries themselves does not reveal any record of noticeable or widespread sexual activity by seminarians." (Source)

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

Do you have a statistic to go with that generalized claim? Because the John Jay study identified a peak period. "The initial study pinpointed the timeline when the abuse crisis was at its peak, roughly from the mid-1960s to the mid-1980s" and "A review of the narratives of men who were seminarians in the 1950s, and of published histories of the seminaries themselves does not reveal any record of noticeable or widespread sexual activity by seminarians." (Source)

A VERY SHORT HISTORY OF CLERGY SEXUAL ABUSE IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH​

Rev. Thomas Doyle, J.C.D., C.A.D.C.​

A Short History


Included first paragraph because it tradition around here, you'll have to read the entire article.

Although clergy sexual abuse has been well documented from the earliest years of the Catholic Church the present era is unique. The victims of clergy abuse had first turned to the Church authorities for help, expecting that the Church’s legal system, known as Canon Law, would provide processes whereby victims would be justly treated and perpetrators properly dealt with and prevented from a continued ministry. Instead, Church officials routinely responded to victims by intimidating them in hopes of obtaining their silence.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

you'll have to read the entire article.

John Jay was a neutral study. But your source sounds like they are emotionally involved, venting, and have an axe to grind.