Alright, A Free Will Thread

TimRout

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RobertZ said:
The young man had a choice, his sins or salvation. He resisted the calling to salvation for the final time and instead chose to embrace his sins. I find it odd that 3 weeks later the young man was stricken with a disease that would take his life. The sin leading to death that is not to be prayed about is when a person reaches the point that God is through with them, it will do no good to pray for someone who God has given up on.
Three things:

1. This preacher runs awfully light on the exegesis. Do you notice how frequently he cites one Scripture then another, yet spends virtually no time dealing with any one text?

2. This preacher's anecdotal illustration about the unrepentant young man is utterly meaningless, unless he can demonstrate why this story has biblical province --- and he does not.

3. Rather than discussing free will (as the OP requests) we are steering once again into a debate over the unpardonable sin. Which is why I must decline to comment further on your post, dear friend. :(
 
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PrincetonGuy

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Does man have a free will, to choose to do good or evil, to choose to serve Satan or to serve God? What saith the Scriptures to these questions?

Gen. 1:26. Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
27. God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Adam, in the garden, according to the Scriptures, had the ability to choose to do good or evil, to choose to serve Satan or to serve God.

Gen. 3:1. Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from any tree of the garden’?”
2. The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat;
3. but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’ “
4. The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die!
5. “For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
6. When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.

Adam sinned, and there were consequences,

Gen. 3:7. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings.
8. They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
9. Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?”
10. He said, “I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.”
11. And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?”
12. The man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate.”
13. Then the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?” And the woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”
14. The LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, Cursed are you more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life;
15. And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel.”
16. To the woman He said, “I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you.”
17. Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.
18. "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field;
19. By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."
20. Now the man called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all {the} living.
21. The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.
22. Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--
23. therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.
24. So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

Was one of the consequences of Adam’s sin the loss of his free will? Genesis does not say that it was.

But you ask, “How about Gen. 6:5 and 8:21,

6:5. Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

8:21. The LORD smelled the soothing aroma; and the LORD said to Himself, “I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.”

These verses teach that man became very evil, but they do not tell us how or why.


How about the rest of the Hexateuch (Genesis – Joshua, studied today by Old Testament scholars as a literary unit)? No, not so much as a hint that Adam lost his free will when he sinned in the garden. Indeed, the Hexateuch teaches us that man retained his ability to choose to do good or evil, and to choose to serve Satan or to serve God,

Joshua 24: 14. “Now, therefore, fear the LORD and serve Him in sincerity and truth; and put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD.”

Later in the Scriptures, however, we do find that in some rare, isolated cases, God intervened and altered the heart of some individuals, thereby influencing their will,

Prov. 21:1. The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes.

Ex. 9:12. And the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.

Rom. 9:17. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.”
18. So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Nonetheless, it is very clear that, from the point of view of Judeo-Christian theology during the Biblical period, man has a free will to choose to do good or evil, to choose to serve Satan or to serve God.

Ecclesiasticus 15:14 Hee himselfe made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of his counsell,
15 If thou wilt, to keepe the Commandements, and to performe acceptable faithfulnesse.
16 He hath set fire and water before thee: stretch forth thy hand vnto whether thou wilt.
17 Before man is life and death, and whether him liketh shalbe giuen him.
18 For the wisedome of the Lord is great, and he is mighty in power, and beholdeth all things,
19 And his eyes are vpon them that feare him, & hee knoweth euery worke of man.
20 Hee hath commanded no man to do wickedly, neither hath he giuen any man license to sinne. (King James Version, 1611)


Ecclesiasticus 15: 14. It was he who created humankind in the beginning,
and he left them in the power of their own free choice.
15. If you choose, you can keep the commandments,
and to act faithfully is a matter of your own choice.
16. He has placed before you fire and water;
stretch out your hand for whichever you choose.
17. Before each person are life and death,
and whichever one chooses will be given.
18. For great is the wisdom of the Lord;
he is mighty in power and sees everything;
19. his eyes are on those who fear him,
and he knows every human action.
20. He has not commanded anyone to be wicked,
and he has not given anyone permission to sin. (New Revised Standard Version)


Was one of the consequences of Adam’s sin the loss of man’s free will? No, God “left them in the power of their own free choice.”

(All quotations are from the NASB, 1995, unless otherwise noted).
 
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TimRout

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And I still think that Gods foreknowledge is based on his ability to know ahead of time those who would heed his call to salvation, those are the elect.
Which means, Robert, that your former statement is inaccurate.
RobertZ said:
First off I would like to say that I am undecided between free will and calvanism so I hope I dont affend anyone.
You have indeed made up you're mind. You're a synergist. :)
 
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RobertZ

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3. Rather than discussing free will (as the OP requests) we are steering once again into a debate over the unpardonable sin. Which is why I must decline to comment further on your post, dear friend. :(

Thats your choice Tim but if you cant see how what I am discussing has everything to do with free will then I feel bad for you in that respect.
 
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RobertZ

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Which means, Robert, that your former statement is inaccurate.


How so Tim? I have to ask.....are you even reading what I writing? I gave you examples of those who accepted his call and those who didnt accept his call. Its very simple, the ones that accepted God already knew that they would take his offer of salvation and the ones that rejected him to the very end he already knew about those as well.
 
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TimRout

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If I misunderstood you, I apologize. :confused:

In keeping with Ro. 8:29-30, the Calvinist position on divine foreknowledge stipulates that God actively foreknew His elect. That is, He actively established His relationship with the elect. He did not simply gaze down through the tunnels of time and "see" who would freely choose to believe.

Are you saying that God foreknew His elect actively, or passively?
 
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RobertZ

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If I misunderstood you, I apologize. :confused:


No big deal. ;)

In keeping with Ro. 8:29-30, the Calvinist position on divine foreknowledge stipulates that God actively foreknew His elect.


Calvinist Position is merely an opinion on what Romans 8:29-30 states just like Armanians have their own position regarding this passage of scripture.

There isnt really any way that either side can guarentee that they are correct in their translation of this passage.

He did not simply gaze down through the tunnels of time and "see" who would freely choose to believe.


And how do you know that he didnt do that?
 
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TimRout

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And how do you know that he didnt do that?
Ro. 8:29 "Those whom He foreknew, He also predestined...." προέγνω is an active verb. It describes something God did, not knowledge that God received. This is not a matter of opinion, but exegesis.
 
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RobertZ

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Ro. 8:29 "Those whom He foreknew, He also predestined...." προέγνω is an active verb. It describes something God did, not knowledge that God received. This is not a matter of opinion, but exegesis.


Well naturually the ones that he foreknew would take his call he would have no choice but to predestine them to become conformed to the image of his son because they responded to his call.
 
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TimRout

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Well naturually the ones that he foreknew would take his call he would have no choice but to predestine them to become conformed to the image of his son because they responded to his call.
The point is, God's active foreknowledge doesn't just predict who will believe. It causes their belief. Monergism!
 
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Hammster

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Well naturually the ones that he foreknew would take his call he would have no choice but to predestine them to become conformed to the image of his son because they responded to his call.



There is nothing in that passage about the response of man.
 
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NickH

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Well naturually the ones that he foreknew would take his call he would have no choice but to predestine them to become conformed to the image of his son because they responded to his call.

No choice? If God has no choice, God is not all powerful or all knowing. Lack of choice is a limitation. God is not limited. Maybe I'm reading something in your post that you're not saying.
 
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RobertZ

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No choice? If God has no choice, God is not all powerful or all knowing. Lack of choice is a limitation. God is not limited. Maybe I'm reading something in your post that you're not saying.


"No other choice" is what I meant.
 
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RobertZ

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I will say this much and that is the point that if calvinism is correct then I am a reprobate who has figured out that he is a reprobate.

One long year now I have been trying to get saved and find salvation but I cant get it, I cant change and nothing is happening in my heart. Its bad enough to be one of the reprobates but to wake up and realize that its happened to you is horrifying to say the least.

I vividly remember the Holy Spirit speaking to my heart in the past and the last time I heard his voice was over a decade ago.
 
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RobertZ

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There is nothing in that passage about the response of man.


Not a single person has ever been saved without saying yes to the Holy Ghost or surrendering your life over to God. Man does certainly have his part in it.
 
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Not a single person has ever been saved without saying yes to the Holy Ghost or surrendering your life over to God. Man does certainly have his part in it.



So you are reading into the text man's responsibility to his own salvation, as opposed to man's response to God's working in his life.
 
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TimRout

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Not a single person has ever been saved without saying yes to the Holy Ghost or surrendering your life over to God. Man does certainly have his part in it.
Perhaps we are being unclear?

In Ro. 8:29-30, we observe a series of active verbs. Each of these describes something God does. There is nothing in the cited text about man's choice or response. Salvation is an act of God from first to last. Though man's response functions as part of the means whereby God brings redemption to each of His elect, our response is never causal.
 
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jarrettcpr

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First we have to define what good is. It is whatever God says it is. Those who are unregenerate and do what seems good are doing it for the wrong reasons. They do it to be able to get a wrm feeling that they are good. They do it in order to make others look on them with admiration. they do it so they can pat themselves on the back. they do it in order to bolster their self-righteousness. they do it in order to have something which they can hold up to God and man that says they aren't really as evil as they actually are. There are a million reasons why the unregenerate do what seems good to the world. But they are never done because the unregenerate is good. The Scriptures clearly declare that there is none good not one.

Thank you for writing, and DeaconDean I read your post above as well. I agree there is none good but one. But at the same time the point I was trying to get to is non-believers do have some sort of free will in the ability to choose from right and wrong.

I was trying to bypass the sentiment that unbelievers can only choose between which evil acts they wish to commit and say they can choose between both evil and righteous.

There are non-believers who raise their kids properly b/c not only is it a joy, but they have the understanding that children are the future and understand as the family goes, so does society. Not to feel warm (though they certainly can and why not, I'm sure my parents feel warm too), or for some kind of personal gain, or to pat themselves on the back, and etc. They choose good b/c they understand that good is better than evil. We can argue no one truly knows the hearts of men, other than God, but I do believe that last sentence of mine can be correct.

I guess the question I'm trying to ask is how much free will do we have. Unless we are still trying to argue we only have the will to sin. Though I don't buy into that. I guess that's the core of this thread. How much free will does one have?

I am also curious about Alvin Plantinga's (who is a Calvinist minister & theologian) statement about the free will defense, which is big b/c it refutes the logical problem of evil that non-believers will pose.

Once again I just want to make sure I'm not necessarily trying to debate, just I have a curiosity to fill.
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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Robert,

Now put on the Armor of the Lord and do your part! The Holy Spirit will guide you through Scripture, but to ensure that Satan is kept from convincing you again that you are with him to Hell, get into the Word of the Holy God. I suggest the NLT translation, as it is easier to understand. As you grow, you can use NIV to KJV translations. Get you a good commentary. I use the one from the Dallas Theological Seminary called "The Bible Knowledge Commentary." Finally, I suggest a slow study with other believers of the book "Absolutely Sure". I'll help if you like.
 
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