Allochtonous Process

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jeffweeder

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Heribert-Nilsson, Ph.D. (1883-1955)
was a noted Swedish botanist and geneticist. He was a lecturer in Botany at the University of Lund from 1915, lecturer in genetics and the theory of species formation from 1920, and received the title of Professor in 1926. He was in charge of cereal and potato breeding at the Plant Breeding Institute of Weibullsholm from 1912 - 1928, and Professor of Botany and Zoology at the Institute of Agriculture and dairying, Alnarp, from 1928 - 1948. Heribert-Nilsson did his research work mainly in genetics and systematics. In addition to his extensive theoretical studies, Dr. Nilsson published several works of practical interest, and contributed substantially to the progress of plant breeding in Sweden.
Towards the end of his distinguished career in science, Dr. Nilsson penned his opus magnum, "Synthetische Artbildung" (Synthetic Speciation), a thorough and exhaustive work of 1,250 pages in two volumes, published in German with an extensive English summary. It is a privilege and a pleasure to present this reprinted edition of the summary with the kind permission of C. w. K. Gleerups of Lund, Sweden, the publishers of the book. As reproduction was done by the offset process, the pagination and references (and a few minor typographical errors) are those of the original. The appended list of references is a selection from the author's 40-page bibliography.
Although the book has not been translated into English we are assured from a study of the summary that students of biology generally will find it an analytical study of Great depth and erudition, backed by long years of close theoretical and experimental acquaintance with biological science. We will not be surprised if "Synthetische Artbildung_" stands as one of the truly great books written in the field of life sciences, in company with such books as George D'Arcy Thompson's "On Growth and Form" and Dr. Hendersons, "the Fitness of the enviroment "

Here is 2 pages of his book relating to the world wide flood catastrophe, discussed under the other thread.:thumbsup:


The mixture o
f climatically irreconcilable elements
o f flora and fauna
Two opposite theories have been advanced regarding the formation of the strata carrying fossils. ,according to one of them. the fossils belong to the place where they are found (autochtonous formation), according to the other, they have been flooded there (allochtonous formation). The first theory is that of LyELL-the evolutionary theory-the second is that of cuvtER,-the revolutionary theory.
Let us study one strictly circumscribed phenomenon, which results in the forming of fossils, e.g. the formation of amber. The largest deposits are found in East Prussia. where layers of 3 meters may be found. GOPPERT has estimated the amber in this region at 5 milliard (5Xl09) kilos. It is quite obvious that these large quantities cannot have been formed on the spot. The theory is that they have their origin in resin from the conifers of the countries around the Baltic. But the conifers growing there do not normally exude resin in any quantities. It has, therefore, been necessary to postulate that heavy attacks of diseases and immense forest fires have induced the effluence of large quantities of resin. Finally, some catastrophe has thrown the forests with their lumps of resin into the sea. The amber and pieces of branches, but no stems, have then been transported by the sea to the coast of least Prussia, This is hardly an autochtonous process.
In the pieces of amber, which may reach a size of 5 kilos or more, especially insects and parts of flowers are preserved, even the most fragile structures. The insects are of modern types and their geographical distribution can be ascertained. It is then quite astounding to find that they belong to all regions of the earth, not only to the PALAEARCTIC region, as was to be expected. T y p i c a 11 y t r o p icaI species occur, from the Old World as well as from the New----------------------------------------
represented, but so far as it is possible to judge from the needles , none of the species are at home around the Baltic; they are Japanese or NorthAmerican. Pious succinifera ,, which should be the source of the amber is a completely hypothetical species.
If the amber has originated around the Baltic, then the pine forests of Northern Europe should have housed such guests as the camphor tree from East Asia, the Averrhoa from Borneo, the Quillaja from South America, and the flowers of the land would have received insects from all over the earth. Only the dinner pail trees and the black bees from the land of Oz are missing'.
But, it is rejoindered, they are there together, encrusted in the amber. Therefore the climate must have been fairly warm, probably subtropical. Impossible! In a subtropical climate of today quitetypical species of animals and plants are living, but it is quite inconceivable that s i d e b y- s i d e with these should have thriven biota from tropical and cold-temperate regions. It is impossible, because the climatic zonation of the earth can hardly have been different then from what it is now and because we are on the whole dealing with the same world of plants and insects. The geological and palaeobiological facts concerning the layers of amber are impossible to understand unless the explanation is accepted that they are the final resultt of an allochtonous process, including the whole earth.
Exactly the same picture as the one just given is offered by the well-known studies of certain fossil-carrying strata of the lignite in Geiseltal. Here, too, there is a complete mixture of plants and insects from all climatic zones and all recognized regions of the geography of plants or animals.
It is further astonishing that in certain cases the leaves have been deposited and p r e s e r v e d in a fully f r e s h condition. The chlorophyll is so well preserved that it has been possible to recognize a- and b types. Masses of leaves form a "green layer". which often was used as a "guide stratum" in the excavations. The leaves were very little damaged, with borders intact and not rent by any storm.
Among tropical animals found in Geiseltal there were such typically tropical groups as half- monkeys, crocodiles and giant serpents of the group Boidae. Alarge part of the insects were from East India. Africa and STH America, Among these there were beetles, still so beautifully coloured, that they were fully compairable with the tropical insects of today.

 
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laptoppop

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Great post. So lets see if I got this right - the two main problems for conventional interpretation seem to be
1) the quantity of amber, and
2) the types of insects in the amber

I have also read that the presence of DNA in amber fossils presents a problem for a long timespan as well -- it should have decayed with 10,000 years.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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Great post. So lets see if I got this right - the two main problems for conventional interpretation seem to be
1) the quantity of amber, and
2) the types of insects in the amber

I have also read that the presence of DNA in amber fossils presents a problem for a long timespan as well -- it should have decayed with 10,000 years.

I'd like to point out the use of the word "should" in "it should have decayed with 10,000 years".

Science is descriptive, it is not prescriptive in a moral or ethical sense. I notice that this idea is not part of YECism vocabulary. How do you know that DNA "it should have decayed with(in) 10,000 years"? You look at the world and see how old DNA acts. You look at the world.

The problem for many religious people who do not have a scientific education is that to them things are deductive and top down reasoning, for this is the "common sensical" way that we customarily think. You don't essentially "tell" DNA how old it can be before it degrades, you look at thousands of samples and try to analyze them to see what the degradation curve is under different conditions: cold, dry, embedded in amber etc. You do the experiments and more importantly you begin to think experimental.

This week i read an article on cave bear DNA and in that article it said that they expect to find some useful DNA up to about 100Kya. But i'm not as interested in the age as i am in reasoning about it.
 
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laptoppop

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There's no problem with using current data to set expectations -- as long as you know that is what you are doing. "should" is an imprecise word -- but I notice you didn't touch the real issue which is that based on our current knowledge we would expect DNA to decay in much less time than the couple hundred MILLION of years (+/-) that are given for the ages of the amber.

It is not that amber would necessarily be exuded in a global flood (although I guess you could investigate hydraulic pressure upon conifers, for example) -- it is that a global flood provides a collection mechanism for gathering such large volumes of amber and varieties of insects together.
 
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Deamiter

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It is not that amber would necessarily be exuded in a global flood (although I guess you could investigate hydraulic pressure upon conifers, for example) -- it is that a global flood provides a collection mechanism for gathering such large volumes of amber and varieties of insects together.

Wait, are you serious? You think that flooding mechanisms provide a "collection mechanism for gathering [large] volumes of amber and varieties of insects together"?

With the innumerate floods that HAVE been observed, have hydrological mechanisms EVER been shown to collect a large volume of amber with a large variety of insects?

Are you just making this up as you go along?
 
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laptoppop

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I think even local floods have been shown to be able to move material around and cause concentrations of various things. On the other hand, yes, I am just making this up as I go along ;) . I don't have specific support for this - it just seems self evident.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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I think even local floods have been shown to be able to move material around and cause concentrations of various things. On the other hand, yes, I am just making this up as I go along ;) . I don't have specific support for this - it just seems self evident.

i do not mean this as a putdown, you have demonstrated yourself to be an honorable debater here.


science is not "self-evident", in fact, much of it is counter intuitive and a scientific mindset is a rather long and difficult process of not just learning the what of science but the how and at the same time unlearning "common sense". This is one of the interesting problems that crop up here on the boards so often, the difference between "common sense" and "this is obvious" type of reasoning and the field of science that is responsible for these ideas.

i've been reading several books on phenotypic plasticity due to some of the stuff supersport has been posting on the general CED board here on CF. there is literally nothing common sense or reasonable to the field for the normal educated but biological science ignorant person. and that is the source of much of his/her problems, quote mining when the field itself is completely opaque to them, not understanding even the paragraph that the quote is mined from.

it is an interesting problem and probably is at the root of the idea that everyone would be an evolutionist if they only knew the facts.
 
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Mallon

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I would be willing to bet (if I weren't a Christian) that all of the insects preserved in the amber are found in but a single stratigraphic layer worldwide. Does Nilson's book mention anything along those lines. If the flood were global, there ought to be insect species (and other creatures, for tha tmatter) represented from all layers of the fossil record.
 
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laptoppop

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I would be willing to bet (if I weren't a Christian) that all of the insects preserved in the amber are found in but a single stratigraphic layer worldwide. Does Nilson's book mention anything along those lines. If the flood were global, there ought to be insect species (and other creatures, for tha tmatter) represented from all layers of the fossil record.
Didn't know, so I went a googlin'

"Amber has been found in sediments from the Carboniferous to Quaternary age, but the greatest concentration is in Cretaceous and Tertiary sediments."

http://www.emporia.edu/earthsci/amber/geology.htm

Not an authoritative answer, but probably accurate. I found similar statements in a couple other places pretty quickly. (see? Being a Christian has side benefits!)

I also found examples of "modern" insects in ancient amber -- but nothing done rigourously so far, so it doesn' t mean much.

Of course, the big problem remains -- how can there be DNA in some of these if they are as old as they are supposed to be? Shouldn't the DNA have decayed long ago?
 
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Mallon

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Of course, the big problem remains -- how can there be DNA in some of these if they are as old as they are supposed to be? Shouldn't the DNA have decayed long ago?
Depends entirely on the preservational environment. Closed environments, like an amber encasing, may very well preserve DNA. Certainly, we now know that DNA preserves well enough in fossil bone crystals (there was a paper on this two years ago).
You seem to be questioning what this find tells us about the age of the earth; you might also ask what this tells us about the preservation of DNA. Maybe DNA doesn't decay at the same rate in different environments?
 
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Assyrian

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I would be willing to bet (if I weren't a Christian) that all of the insects preserved in the amber are found in but a single stratigraphic layer worldwide. Does Nilson's book mention anything along those lines. If the flood were global, there ought to be insect species (and other creatures, for tha tmatter) represented from all layers of the fossil record.
Baltic amber dates from 35-40 million years ago, but insects have been around 10 times longer, which has given them a long time to come up with some very successful forms. A lot of modern genera date back longer and can be found in Baltic amber.

You would be right, but you would have to take the whole Cenozoic as the stratigraphic layer. I don't think you will find any Permian insects in Baltic amber.
 
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laptoppop

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Depends entirely on the preservational environment. Closed environments, like an amber encasing, may very well preserve DNA. Certainly, we now know that DNA preserves well enough in fossil bone crystals (there was a paper on this two years ago).
You seem to be questioning what this find tells us about the age of the earth; you might also ask what this tells us about the preservation of DNA. Maybe DNA doesn't decay at the same rate in different environments?
Fair enough. I just haven't seen any literature which suggests that DNA is able to be preserved for a couple hundred million years.
 
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Mallon

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Fair enough. I just haven't seen any literature which suggests that DNA is able to be preserved for a couple hundred million years.
You haven't looked hard enough. The literature is out there. It's found in those nasty, secular science journals, though. ;)
It's quite rare, but DNA preservation does occur. Note that this isn't to say that entire DNA sequences are intact. We're usually lucky if we find more than 2% of a single strand.
 
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Deamiter

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Fair enough. I just haven't seen any literature which suggests that DNA is able to be preserved for a couple hundred million years.
It's easy to get this impression when you get your information from popular sources. There's so MUCH information in such detailed and focused areas, it's impossible for the average blogger (or reporter) to amass, much less understand it all.

if you're REALLY interested in understanding the current understanding of scientists on a particular subject, you can easily go to the nearest public university and search through the published literature yourself.

I'm always impressed when lay-people ask the tough questions and really want to know what has been established, and on what basis. Even rarer is somebody who puts the effort into actually looking it up rather than asking others to go through the journals. I spend a few hours a week reading through scientific journals, and that's just to keep up with advances in ultra-short pulsed laser research.

Just don't look down on scientific research just because it doesn't make it into Sci Am or your favorite evolutionist/creationist blog.
 
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jeffweeder

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I also found examples of "modern" insects in ancient amber -- but nothing done rigourously so far, so it doesn' t mean much.

Of course, the big problem remains -- how can there be DNA in some of these if they are as old as they are supposed to be? Shouldn't the DNA have decayed long ago?

you would think so

The insects are of modern types and their geographical distribution can be ascertained. It is then quite astounding to find that they belong to all regions of the earth, not only to the PALAEARCTIC region, as was to be expected

They say the amber is 30 million years old. That means insects havent changed from then until now. ...does this present another problem?
 
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Mallon

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They say the amber is 30 million years old. That means insects havent changed from then until now. ...does this present another problem?
Only if the insects are the exact same species as modern ones. If they're not, then it's obvious evolution has occurred.
 
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