Aerial Toll Houses? Yay or Nay.

[Shieldmaiden4Christ]

haha i know, i know

When I'm in good humor, I joke a lot.

 

[jckstraw72]

it's all good. even people like the great Elder Paisios, and Fr. Seraphim himself, had wonderful senses of humor!

 

[ArmyMatt]

To be honest, I find the whole concept of the toll houses TERRIFYINGLY AWFUL to even contemplate for a minute, but as I read "The Soul After Death," I must say that Father Seraphim Rose does lay out quote after quote and story after story of the Fathers and saints laying out the concept of the toll houses in some form. St. Gregory the Dialogist, St. John Chrysostom, St. Ephraim the Syrian, St. Macarius the Great, St. Anthony, St. Athanasius, and a host of other people either speaking that there will be several stages of judgment in the aerial realm or something about demons tempting and testing at checkpoints or some kind of demonic testing and trials with the saints and angels on our side, our sins unconfessed shown against us, on and on.

Trust me, I don't want to believe in this stuff. It paralyzes me with FEAR and trembling to even talk about it. And I must say that this stuff makes me focus way more on God's wrath, my sins, fear, sadness, and misery than it does on God's mercy. But how do we reconcile what the Fathers and great saints say on it with the idea of them not existing?

I'd love to talk more about this, but I notice on most Orthodox message boards this being a HOT-BUTTON issue. Father Seraphim Rose is a tough guy to discuss online. His backers and supporters fight for him with a ferocity and passion that gets them so riled up and angry if you're not a fan of his that I notice people IM each other if they disagree with him rather than ignite the ire!

it's not something to be terrified of, because remember that yes the demons are there, but so are the saints, the angels, and Christ Himself. we have many more that are on our side than those that are against us.

 

[Boris89]

Honestly, I've never heard of anybody disputing the existence of the toll houses during the whole history of the church until our times. Of course this may be wrong and any evidence on the contrary is welcome. Surprisingly right now in times of complete apostacy have some decided to challenge the existence of the toll houses.

Demons are always watching and they record our every move, whether we like it or not. So it's only natural one will see and confront them after his/her soul gets out of the body and starts getting up.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Just an observation. I'm still open to this teaching, reading a lot about it lately. But I have noticed that MANY people are afraid of going against Father Seraphim Rose on much of anything. They're intimidated to seem anti. On several message boards, I've noticed people IM their disagreements against him rather than post in the open forum while the pro-toll house folks come out loud and proud. I think that says something.

My priest has made it clear that he is not a fan of Father SR. He is always telling me to stay far from his books and instead read the more pastoral, domestic priests like Father Alexander Schmemann. At my parish, there are SEVERAL Father SR fans who read him voraciously and with gusto. But my priest has told me some pretty strong feelings he has against him. yet, even my priest won't talk against Father SR and the toll houses around other parishioners!

interesting POV - i've always found it to be his detractors who get more worked up

 

[snowpumpkin]

I'm a big nay, and one of the IMers. I do that because it's pointless and a waste of time to "ignite the ire" of SR true believers. It does not accomplish anything but more arguing and disagreeing; and nobody's mind is changed.

I love Father Hopko's explanation. And just for the record, I have no doubt that SR was a great Orthodox Christian and aesthetic. I just think Father Hopko's explanation is more realistic as none of us, now or in the past 2,000 years, has been there and back to give the details.

 

[Shieldmaiden4Christ]

I love Father Hopko's explanation. And just for the record, I have no doubt that SR was a great Orthodox Christian and aesthetic. I just think Father Hopko's explanation is more realistic as none of us, now or in the past 2,000 years, has been there and back to give the details.

I like Father Hopko's explanation as well.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

To be honest, I find the whole concept of the toll houses TERRIFYINGLY AWFUL to even contemplate for a minute, but as I read "The Soul After Death," I must say that Father Seraphim Rose does lay out quote after quote and story after story of the Fathers and saints laying out the concept of the toll houses in some form. St. Gregory the Dialogist, St. John Chrysostom, St. Ephraim the Syrian, St. Macarius the Great, St. Anthony, St. Athanasius, and a host of other people either speaking that there will be several stages of judgment in the aerial realm or something about demons tempting and testing at checkpoints or some kind of demonic testing and trials with the saints and angels on our side, our sins unconfessed shown against us, on and on.

Trust me, I don't want to believe in this stuff. It paralyzes me with FEAR and trembling to even talk about it. And I must say that this stuff makes me focus way more on God's wrath, my sins, fear, sadness, and misery than it does on God's mercy. But how do we reconcile what the Fathers and great saints say on it with the idea of them not existing?

I'd love to talk more about this, but I notice on most Orthodox message boards this being a HOT-BUTTON issue. Father Seraphim Rose is a tough guy to discuss online. His backers and supporters fight for him with a ferocity and passion that gets them so riled up and angry if you're not a fan of his that I notice people IM each other if they disagree with him rather than ignite the ire!

Sounds heretical to me. If you are a Christian and accept Christ's "kippur" for your sins, there is no "purifying" needed. All this toll house business sounds very much like the Egyptian book of the dead.

 

[katherine2001]

I'm a big nay, and one of the IMers. I do that because it's pointless and a waste of time to "ignite the ire" of SR true believers. It does not accomplish anything but more arguing and disagreeing; and nobody's mind is changed.

I love Father Hopko's explanation. And just for the record, I have no doubt that SR was a great Orthodox Christian and aesthetic. I just think Father Hopko's explanation is more realistic as none of us, now or in the past 2,000 years, has been there and back to give the details.

 

[gzt]

Just an observation. I'm still open to this teaching, reading a lot about it lately. But I have noticed that MANY people are afraid of going against Father Seraphim Rose on much of anything. They're intimidated to seem anti. On several message boards, I've noticed people IM their disagreements against him rather than post in the open forum while the pro-toll house folks come out loud and proud. I think that says something.

My priest has made it clear that he is not a fan of Father SR. He is always telling me to stay far from his books and instead read the more pastoral, domestic priests like Father Alexander Schmemann. At my parish, there are SEVERAL Father SR fans who read him voraciously and with gusto. But my priest has told me some pretty strong feelings he has against him. yet, even my priest won't talk against Father SR and the toll houses around other parishioners!

If you want public dislike of Fr Seraphim, there's some here. Part of why people don't diss him publicly is that some people are really into him and you don't want to have that discussion.

 

[jckstraw72]

here is what Fr. Seraphim says pastorally about the toll houses. This is pretty much always overlooked:

"With those who are ready for it, the teaching of the toll-houses is a powerful incentive for repentance and a life lived in the fear of God; but there are those for whom the teaching would be so frightening that I would not even speak of it to them until they were better prepared to accept it. A priest sometimes encounters dying people so little prepared for the other world that it would be pointless to speak to them even of hell, let alone the toll-houses, for fear of removing in them the little hope and awareness they might have of the Kingdom of Heaven." Soul After Death (2004) p. 267

 

[snowpumpkin]

All this toll house business sounds very much like the Egyptian book of the dead.

I agree.

And as to it being truth JUST because numerous previous Orthodox have talked about it, Hyperdox Herman says the first time is innovation, the second time is normal, the third time is tradition...

Gurney, just take comfort in the fact that the tollhouses are not mentioned AT ALL in the Orthodox funeral service or the memorials. That should tell you something.

 

[snowpumpkin]

here is what Fr. Seraphim says pastorally about the toll houses. This is pretty much always overlooked:

"With those who are ready for it, the teaching of the toll-houses is a powerful incentive for repentance and a life lived in the fear of God; but there are those for whom the teaching would be so frightening that I would not even speak of it to them until they were better prepared to accept it. A priest sometimes encounters dying people so little prepared for the other world that it would be pointless to speak to them even of hell, let alone the toll-houses, for fear of removing in them the little hope and awareness they might have of the Kingdom of Heaven." Soul After Death (2004) p. 267

What this says to me is:

1. Father Seraphim Rose believed in the literal tollhouses, which we all know.

2. Father Seraphim Rose believed that if someone DOESN'T believe in the literal tollhouses, it is because they are too afraid and/or spiritually immature to handle it.

3. Father Seraphim Rose believed that if someone is too afraid and/or spiritually immature to handle it, it's best to let them go in blind...

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Well that quote definitely isn't very comforting!!!!:o

here is what Fr. Seraphim says pastorally about the toll houses. This is pretty much always overlooked:

"With those who are ready for it, the teaching of the toll-houses is a powerful incentive for repentance and a life lived in the fear of God; but there are those for whom the teaching would be so frightening that I would not even speak of it to them until they were better prepared to accept it. A priest sometimes encounters dying people so little prepared for the other world that it would be pointless to speak to them even of hell, let alone the toll-houses, for fear of removing in them the little hope and awareness they might have of the Kingdom of Heaven." Soul After Death (2004) p. 267

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Brother gzt, why do you take what I say, which is an observation about DISAGREEMENT with Father Seraphim Rose, to be a personal desire to see him disliked? you're a very smart guy from all the posts I've read of you through these last few years. Surely you don't mistake disagreement for loathing right? I disagree with my dad sometimes, doesn't mean I want him publically berated?

And as you might note on here, I'm still open to these things. I'm reading Father SR right now. Why would I read his most famous book with a desire to find ammo to mock and degrade his memory? I don't hate him in the least. I've listened to some of his sermons and find his translations that he did for the Russian people living in Soviet persecution to be heroic and exceedingly passionate. I think the man loved God, conquered his own demons in a grace-filled way, and inspired so many people. I have zero desire to degrade him.

but your reaction here is exactly what I'm talking about. Your quick assumption that people who disagree are haters, that's precisely why I said so many people are IMing on other boards because they're afraid their disagreement will be met with the "you're a hater!" accusation. My point exhibit A....

If you want public dislike of Fr Seraphim, there's some here. Part of why people don't diss him publicly is that some people are really into him and you don't want to have that discussion.

 

[jckstraw72]

.

 

[jckstraw72]

adfa;lfjadjf;aldjf;af

 

[katherine2001]

Brother gzt, why do you take what I say, which is an observation about DISAGREEMENT with Father Seraphim Rose, to be a personal desire to see him disliked? you're a very smart guy from all the posts I've read of you through these last few years. Surely you don't mistake disagreement for loathing right? I disagree with my dad sometimes, doesn't mean I want him publically berated?

And as you might note on here, I'm still open to these things. I'm reading Father SR right now. Why would I read his most famous book with a desire to find ammo to mock and degrade his memory? I don't hate him in the least. I've listened to some of his sermons and find his translations that he did for the Russian people living in Soviet persecution to be heroic and exceedingly passionate. I think the man loved God, conquered his own demons in a grace-filled way, and inspired so many people. I have zero desire to degrade him.

but your reaction here is exactly what I'm talking about. Your quick assumption that people who disagree are haters, that's precisely why I said so many people are IMing on other boards because they're afraid their disagreement will be met with the "you're a hater!" accusation. My point exhibit A....

You've noticed that too, Scott? The sad thing is that I think Fr. Seraphim the first to think that this kind of adulation of everything he said is not healthy. If none of the Fathers is infallible, Fr. Seraphim is hardly infallible either. Nobody is infallible.

 

[jckstraw72]

the funny thing here is, people sometimes accuse me of acting like Fr. Seraphim is infallible, and yet, there are some things i know he was wrong about, but no one ever brings those things up. people just dredge up the same old debate about the toll houses again and again - a teaching on which he is in harmony with so many other great elders of the 20th century (and does anyone take the time to nice that his chapter is almost entirely a quote of St. Ignatius Brianchanninov?). so yeah, i, and others, defend Fr. Seraphim on the toll houses whenever it's brought up (especially because so much of what is said is simply misinformed, such as the notion that he interpreted them literally -- do people actually read the book before commenting?). but how a defense of his toll house teaching somehow automatically extends to everything he ever said i really can't figure out. i've never met a single person who treats him infallibly - the problem is that most of his detractors are so unaware of the person and his work that they can only manage to identify him with the toll houses. he wrote several books and countless articles, and people continue to harp on ONE doctrinal point from ONE book ... so yeah, for those of us that like him - it's slightly maddening.

 

[gzt]

Brother gzt, why do you take what I say, which is an observation about DISAGREEMENT with Father Seraphim Rose, to be a personal desire to see him disliked? you're a very smart guy from all the posts I've read of you through these last few years. Surely you don't mistake disagreement for loathing right? I disagree with my dad sometimes, doesn't mean I want him publically berated?

And as you might note on here, I'm still open to these things. I'm reading Father SR right now. Why would I read his most famous book with a desire to find ammo to mock and degrade his memory? I don't hate him in the least. I've listened to some of his sermons and find his translations that he did for the Russian people living in Soviet persecution to be heroic and exceedingly passionate. I think the man loved God, conquered his own demons in a grace-filled way, and inspired so many people. I have zero desire to degrade him.

but your reaction here is exactly what I'm talking about. Your quick assumption that people who disagree are haters, that's precisely why I said so many people are IMing on other boards because they're afraid their disagreement will be met with the "you're a hater!" accusation. My point exhibit A....

What I meant was, if you want see some public dislike of Fr SR, I will gladly provide it.