Adventist end time beliefs?

[Jesse Johnson]

I wonder why I need to look beyond the "TCs" to Jesus if the Holy Spirit has me under house arrest.

 

[Gary K]

I wonder why I need to look beyond the "TCs" to Jesus if the Holy Spirit has me under house arrest.

It's an ironic statement that he makes. He views liberty from sin as confinement for when we are under arrest we are most definitely not at liberty. Yet the words of Jesus are in complete contradiction to his ideas.

Luke 4:18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives
and recovering of sight to the blind,
to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.”

Liberty in Jesus is arrest and confinement. The doublespeak is very apparent as he completely redefines all of Jesus statement from positive and appealing ideas to negative concepts.

 

[Jesse Johnson]

It's an ironic statement that he makes. He views liberty from sin as confinement for when we are under arrest we are most definitely not at liberty.

Calvinism 101

 

[Jesse Johnson]

A Seventh-day Adventist is (practically by definition) a champion of religious liberty. Predeterminism is the exact opposite of religious liberty. I have never heard nor read a cogent explanation of it. For what it's worth, it is entirely irreconcilable with the SOP. Just another corruption of the pen of the apostle Paul. As for the current situation, it is simply a (largely successful) attempt to derail the thread. And all it needs--to continue--is feeding. The commandments of God and the faith of Jesus are Adventist end-time beliefs.

 

[Gary K]

A Seventh-day Adventist is (practically by definition) a champion of religious liberty. Predeterminism is the exact opposite of religious liberty. I have never heard nor read a cogent explanation of it. For what it's worth, it is entirely irreconcilable with the SOP. Just another corruption of the pen of the apostle Paul. As for the current situation, it is simply a (largely successful) attempt to derail the thread. And all it needs--to continue--is feeding. The commandments of God and the faith of Jesus are Adventist end-time beliefs.

I agree with you. I would make one small distinction though. The "new" SDA theology is not anywhere as liberty loving as historical SDA theology.

As to Calvinism, well modern "Calvinists" do not even agree with Calvin. He clearly stated in one of his most famous writings that the wicked frustrate the grace of God.

For the obedience of faith, &c.—That is, we have received a command to preach the gospel among all nations, and this gospel they obey by faith. By stating the design of his calling, he again reminds the Romans of his office, as though he said, “It is indeed my duty to discharge the office committed to me, which is to preach the word; and it is your duty to hear the word and willingly to obey it; you will otherwise make void the vocation which the Lord has bestowed on me.”

We hence learn, that they perversely resist the authority of God and upset the whole of what he has ordained, who irreverently and contemptuously reject the preaching of the gospel; the design of which is to constrain us to obey God. We must also notice here what faith is; the name of obedience is given to it, and for this reason—because the Lord calls us by his gospel; we respond to his call by faith; as on the other hand, the chief act of disobedience to God is unbelief, I prefer rendering the sentence, “For the obedience of faith,” rather than, “In order that they may obey the faith;” for the last is not strictly correct, except taken figuratively, though it be found once in the Acts, vi. 7. Faith is properly that by which we obey the gospel.1

This quote comes from Calvin's Commentaries on the Epistle of Paul to the Romans. It's part Calvin's comments on Romans 1:5.

What we often see today as Calvinists are people of the "Reformed" faith. Their main theological proponent is someone who thinks we human beings are able to interpret scripture however we wish as he sees scripture as being in two separate parts. One must be read as it is. The other can be read however we please. And he is the main proponent of what people who believe like Dave L believe.

I'll have to see if I can find his name again as it's been a couple of years since I studied into the Reformed church. Even among the Reformed membership though we see some pretty active criticism on his liberty with scripture.

 

[Dave L]

Jesus is the law for He is God. It describes who He is as He lived it perfectly. He cannot be separated from His own law. Remember who Jesus says He is:


Jesus is the law giver for He, as the great I AM, gave His law to the Israelites on mount Sinai. You cannot separate Jesus from His law.

So why do you take to yourself the glory that belongs only to God?

It is idolatry to take to yourself the credit that belongs only to God. It is a form of self-worship. And you claim to not need the 10 commandments because you don't habitually sin? You've been giving yourself the glory of not sinning and that glory, if it is true you don't sin, doesn't belong to you. You are stealing God's glory. So, you're not only worshiping another God other than our Creator you're stealing from Him.

Your own words betray you.

The TCs were all about self-righteousness. Many felt good for not stealing when they wanted to. A big Pharisee problem. But good people (born again) don't want to steal.

 

[Dave L]

The thread has now been hijacked by a Calvinistic agenda. Don't encourage it, folks.

Stop asking questions and won't need to be polite and answer.

 

[Jesse Johnson]

The "new" SDA theology is not anywhere as liberty loving as historical SDA theology.

Sorry, I wouldn't know about that. I lean neither to the right nor the left. I don't care to fall into the ditch on either side.

 

[Jesse Johnson]

Stop asking questions and won't need to be polite and answer.

That's good coming from you. You hardly answer any questions, and the ones you do answer, you answer with a question or some other dodge. This is not a question, so you needn't worry about seeming impolite if you don't respond. The need to have the last word is a character flaw "good people" shouldn't want to exhibit. Maybe we'll be all right as long as we don't make it part of an adopted lifestyle.

 

[Dave L]

That's good coming from you. You hardly answer any questions, and the ones you do answer, you answer with a question or some other dodge. This is not a question, so you needn't worry about seeming impolite if you don't respond. The need to have the last word is a character flaw "good people" shouldn't want to exhibit. Maybe we'll be all right as long as we don't make it part of an adopted lifestyle.

Why not open a thread where we can debate this without a safety net? Truth needs not to hide from any challenge.

 

[Gary K]

The TCs were all about self-righteousness. Many felt good for not stealing when they wanted to. A big Pharisee problem. But good people (born again) don't want to steal.

Really? Jesus was all about self-righteousness? He gave the 10 commandments to us as a way to worship self? Jesus lived a life of self-righteousness?

Where did you learn this weirdness?

 

[Dave L]

Really? Jesus was all about self-righteousness? He gave the 10 commandments to us as a way to worship self? Jesus lived a life of self-righteousness?

Where did you learn this weirdness?

The TCs were for bad people who kept them through self-righteousness according to Paul. Good people like Jod and Abraham did not need death threats not to steal.
“But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” 1 Timothy 1:8–10 (KJV 1900)

 

[Gary K]

Sorry, I wouldn't know about that. I lean neither to the right nor the left. I don't care to fall into the ditch on either side.

Huh? The truth our founders were given by God is on one side or the other? That is historical Adventism. You know, the sanctuary, the three angels message, righteousness by faith, the law a representation of God's character, prophecy? All of these things are somehow on one side or the other?

 

[Gary K]

The TCs were for bad people who kept them through self-righteousness according to Paul. Good people like Jod and Abraham did not need death threats not to steal.
“But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” 1 Timothy 1:8–10 (KJV 1900)

Once again you go off into weirdness. The law was given to bad people so they could be self-righteous? Where do you come up with this weirdness?

Paul never meant his statement the way you read it as he also said that we establish the law through faith. Your reading of scripture makes Paul a liar for you make him argue against himself. I would imagine you're a follower of John Piper with the beliefs you have, or maybe Marc Driscoll, maybe even Dan Fuller.

 

[Dave L]

Once again you go off into weirdness. The law was given to bad people so they could be self-righteous? Where do you come up with this weirdness?

Paul never meant his statement the way you read it as he also said that we establish the law through faith. Your reading of scripture makes Paul a liar for you make him argue against himself. I would imagine you're a follower of John Piper with the beliefs you have, or maybe Marc Driscoll, maybe even Dan Fuller.

The Pharisees were proud law keepers. Thank God I'm not like one of these..... They felt good not stealing when they wanted to. Good people like Abraham don't want to steal.

 

[Gary K]

The Pharisees were proud law keepers. Thank God I'm not like one of these..... They felt good not stealing when they wanted to. Good people like Abraham don't want to steal.

I'm kinda amused by this post.

Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

Remember, you're the guy who said the following.

I cannot habitually sin because I stop temptation before it turns into sin.

Essentially you say exactly the same thing the Pharisee said about himself.

 

[Dave L]

I'm kinda amused by this post.



Remember, you're the guy who said the following.


Essentially you say exactly the same thing the Pharisee said about himself.

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (KJV 1900)

 

[BobRyan]

If Jesus lives in your heart, there's far more knowledge of sin than the TCs could ever provide. Don't steal = do nothing according to the TCs. According to Jesus, you are stealing if you don't give to someone who is your equal.

Magnifying God's Commandments beyond the level of civil laws in Israel is not destroying the Commandments of God -- it is magnifying them.

(God's Commandments where the 5th commandment "is the first commandment WITH a promise" Eph 6:1-2 -- are most certainly included)

 

[klutedavid]

Magnifying God's Commandments beyond the level of civil laws in Israel is not destroying the Commandments of God -- it is magnifying them.

Wrong set of commandments.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.

 

[BobRyan]

If Jesus lives in your heart, there's far more knowledge of sin than the TCs could ever provide. Don't steal = do nothing according to the TCs. According to Jesus, you are stealing if you don't give to someone who is your equal.

Magnifying God's Commandments beyond the level of civil laws in Israel is not destroying the Commandments of God -- it is magnifying them.

(God's Commandments where the 5th commandment "is the first commandment WITH a promise" Eph 6:1-2 -- are most certainly included)

Wrong set of commandments.
.

You have free will.