Adam and the Scientist

[Jig]

Many Creationists argue that the great global deluge in Noah's day is responsible for this "false appearance of age" through catastrophe. Theistic evolutionist argue that it is impossible that the Earth is only 10,000 years old and present many theories on why.

I think the truth, however, is found somewhere in the middle. The one thing we have going for us, is our faith in a creator God.

In the creation account in Genesis, we see the heavens, the Earth, the plants, the animals, and man being made. This incorporates the entirety of our unvierse; starlight, matter, life, etc.

We see all the animals start life in a mature form. The same can be said about the plants, the Earth, all the stars, and even man.

If we were to transport one of our smartest biologist/geologist via time-machine back to four days after Adam and the Earth were made, what do you think his assumptions would be?

He was see a fully grown man and woman, and land full of mature plants and animals, and he would see stars at night. Surely, given his expertise...he would realize these things were only four days old! But no...his prior observations of how a human and animals grows would interfer with truth, and he would give an age of 20 or so for Adam, 50+ years for the trees, less than 10 years for the animals, and about 20 million light years for the starlight. All based on solid science, but all wrong.

God made this world mature at the beginning.
If the Earth is only 10,000 years old...it doesn't have to look that young!

 

[artybloke]

Ah yes, the Omphalos theory...

No. God doesn't decieve us like this.

 

[Jig]

Ah yes, the Omphalos theory...

No. God doesn't decieve us like this.

Some will see this as a deception, because either their interpretation of evidence is wrong or their understanding of God is wrong.

 

[Jig]

I don't subscribe to everything YEC's theorize, however, I am a catastrophist. My interpretation on the fossil record is a non-uniformitarian view.

Thus, I see no deception on God's part. I only see the possibility for deception coming from our own understanding of the "natrual" world, when clearly our definition of "natural" does not include God or His handiwork.

 

[Ben12]

God does deceive us for the creature was made subject to vanity NOT WIllingly. All things God has preordained. What happened to Adam and Eve is spiritual and has absolutely nothing to do with dinosaurs and or science. All the theologians cannot answer this big question(religous carnal brains), so science has no chance. Who knows how long this world has been here; surly much more then 6000 years; the questions when did man fall; and only God can answer that.

 

[busterdog]

God does deceive us for the creature was made subject to vanity NOT WIllingly. All things God has preordained.

Agree.

The Bible has lots and lots to say about the difference between appearance to man and the truth in God. It is one of my main interests, which may be why I see it so much. But, if one were to look, you would find that distinction everywhere.

After confronting the Pharisees, Jesus began to speak in parables. He was quite clear that one effect would be that they wouldn't get it, but that those who followed him would.

After Pharaoh hardened his heart, God hardened it some more, so that he would not understand.

"Deception" is a loaded word. The reason it is used here is obvious enough. The real question is whether we wish to look at things God's way, not whether He would prefer to deceive anyone. If deception is the effect of not desiring to see His way, then "deception", or whatever you call it, is going to be the price for getting the truth out to those who do wish to hear.

 

[Citanul]

The way that we tell the age of something is by testing/observing it in some way. In other words, looking at it.

Now if the world were created to look old, then no matter in what way we looked at it, it would still appear to be old. So without any evidence to the contrary, you cannot criticise anyone who comes to the conclusion that it is actually old.

And where is the evidence to the contrary? I've yet to see any scripture supporting the theory that the world was created with the appearance of age.

So if neither science nor scripture can back it up, is there really any validity to the idea?

 

[Assyrian]

God does deceive us for the creature was made subject to vanity NOT WIllingly.

Sorry Ben, I don't see how you get from one side to the other there. What has the creation being subject to futility or vanity got to do with God deceiving us?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

'Mother Earth' is very old, but thanks to the 'makeup' of the Genesis re-creation, she looks pretty good.

 

[Mallon]

I do not think the advocation that God created the universe with the mere appearance of age is biblical, for He inspired David to write, "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands" (Psalm 19:1). He also inspired Paul to write, "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse" (Romans 1:20).
How could either of these verses be true if God embedded a false history in His creation? I can understand reading Genesis as largely allegory because the written word is a human inovation limited only by our own creativity. God can and does deliver His "spiritual truths" (1 Cor 2:13) via any means He wishes, not just through historical narrative. What I cannot understand is someone who insists that Genesis must be read literally, and at the same time hold that God's creation cannot be taken at face value.

 

[busterdog]

'Mother Earth' is very old, but thanks to the 'makeup' of the Genesis re-creation, she looks pretty good.

I don't know about that. As a frustrated gardener, I agree with the sixth law of Murphy. "Nature is a mother."

 

[Ben12]

Sorry Ben, I don't see how you get from one side to the other there. What has the creation being subject to futility or vanity got to do with God deceiving us?

We are in darkness and have been from the fall; that was God’s doing. We know in part see in part until that which is perfect has come. When Adam died He died spiritual for his physical death did not happen until he was 900 years old. A dead man cannot see, hear, touch etc; that goes double for a spiritual dead man.

We are in darkness because of the fall; as we grow in Christ we come out of that darkness. The fall was God's will for man. Without a sinner; who needs a savior. Adam was innocent at the beginning of creation; God will have overcomers at the end

 

[Assyrian]

We are in darkness and have been from the fall; that was God’s doing. We know in part see in part until that which is perfect has come. When Adam died He died spiritual for his physical death did not happen until he was 900 years old. A dead man cannot see, hear, touch etc; that goes double for a spiritual dead man.

Except that people can see hear touch... Do not read too much into the use of death as a metaphor. People may be spiritually dead in their sins, but they are physically alive and have the eyes and brains God gave them

We are in darkness because of the fall; as we grow in Christ we come out of that darkness. The fall was God's will for man. Without a sinner; who needs a savior. Adam was innocent at the beginning of creation; God will have overcomers at the end

The problem with being dead spiritually is that humans have great difficulty understanding spirtual things. However we are not talking about spiritual matters but the nature of the physical universe around us. There is nothing spiritual about understanding biology, geology and astrophysics, it is these natural processes and information that tells us about evolution and the age of the earth and the universe.

 

[Ben12]

Except that people can see hear touch... Do not read too much into the use of death as a metaphor. People may be spiritually dead in their sins, but they are physically alive and have the eyes and brains God gave them


The problem with being dead spiritually is that humans have great difficulty understanding spirtual things. However we are not talking about spiritual matters but the nature of the physical universe around us. There is nothing spiritual about understanding biology, geology and astrophysics, it is these natural processes and information that tells us about evolution and the age of the earth and the universe.

I thought we were speaking about Adam and Eve and Science; what I have been saying is God beginnings are spiritual and most believers are not spiritual; but religious. I agree with you about understanding natural idealisms.

When Adam fell from God’s grace in The Garden of Eden; He fell from a place of grace and became as a beast or flesh (same as the Beast or it’s mark in Book of Revelations). Adam was a son of God; just like Jesus who is the second Adam. Religion looks for answers everywhere they can find them, be it the natural world, human history or tradition. The answer to the Bible is the Bible; just got to let the Spirit of Truth open the mystery; then it is no longer a mystery.

I might add, the word breath or cool; same word as in Genesis 3:8 according to Strong’s
OT:7307: ruwach (roo'-akh); from OT:7306; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions):

Genesis 3: 8And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool (or spirit of the day)of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Romans 1:20 seems to imply that man was created 5 billion years ago, along with the world (earth), doesn't it?

"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." (NIV)

A careful reading of this verse indicates that man was created at the same time as the world (earth), and was given the ability, and duty, to plainly see that God created and governs everything in that creation, and that he is to be honored.

Either that is true or that the Genesis 'creation' is a renewal of the surface of the ancient earth, and man was created as part of this process.

 

[Jadis40]

Romans 1:20 seems to say that man was created 5 billion years ago, along with the world (earth), doesn't it?

"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

No. Even scientists don't claim that mankind was around 5 billion years ago, at least none that I would take seriously. Besides, the chemical nature of the atmosphere wasn't fitting for complex life forms, like horses, cows, humans and so on. The first forms of life, still existent today are the bacteria, cyanobacteria to be exact. These little single cellular life forms are what transformed a toxic atmosphere into one that was breathable. Scientific study has revealed that the chemical make up was extremely toxic, but through the process of photosynthesis, the atmosphere was slowly changed to one of a much higher oxygen level. To me, this verse from Romans is clear evidence that God created the heavens and the earth. Science has offered the Big Bang as the start of the formation of the universe, which to me, is an acknowledgment that the universe is NOT self-existent.

There's a lot of physics involved, through which the subatomic particles formed electrons, protons and neutrons which are the building blocks of everything in the universe, from the simplest life forms like bacteria up to humans, to the planet itself and the solar system, galaxies and stars. The simplest element to form is hydrogen. That's why it's the most abundant element in the universe.
A side too, the most abundant elements in the human body are oxygen, carbon, hydrogen and nitrogen, in that order.

Hydrogen fusion is what powers our sun, through the proton-proton reaction. Heavier mass stars are powered in the CNO cycle.

Notice anything similar about the stars and the most common elements in the human body?

 

[artybloke]

If God decieved us about the age of the earth, then why should we believe him about anything else?

 

[Assyrian]

I thought we were speaking about Adam and Eve and Science; what I have been saying is God beginnings are spiritual and most believers are not spiritual; but religious. I agree with you about understanding natural idealisms.

God is spirit, but the universe he created is natural, a physical reality that natural people can understand.

When Adam fell from God’s grace in The Garden of Eden; He fell from a place of grace and became as a beast or flesh (same as the Beast or it’s mark in Book of Revelations).

Be careful you don't mix figurative and literal. Revelation is a book of symbols. Remember as well, when God made Adam, he was 'flesh and bone' (Gen 2:23), just like we are. This was before the fall.

Adam was a son of God; just like Jesus who is the second Adam.

You are not saying Jesus was created are you? Jesus is God's only begotten son. When the bible talks of Adam as son of God, it is not speaking literally

Religion looks for answers everywhere they can find them, be it the natural world, human history or tradition. The answer to the Bible is the Bible; just got to let the Spirit of Truth open the mystery; then it is no longer a mystery.

I might add, the word breath or cool; same word as in Genesis 3:8 according to Strong’s
OT:7307: ruwach (roo'-akh); from OT:7306; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions):

Genesis 3: 8And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool (or spirit of the day)of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

Not sure what you are saying there Ben.

 

[Assyrian]

Romans 1:20 seems to imply that man was created 5 billion years ago, along with the world (earth), doesn't it?

"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." (NIV)

A careful reading of this verse indicates that man was created at the same time as the world (earth), and was given the ability, and duty, to plainly see that God created and governs everything in that creation, and that he is to be honored.

Either that is true or that the Genesis 'creation' is a renewal of the surface of the ancient earth, and man was created as part of this process.

It is actually present tense 'are clearly seen'.People now see and understand the things God created.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

It is actually present tense 'are clearly seen'.People now see and understand the things God created.

I was being a little facetious with the five billion age of man. Also I posted Rom 1:20 from the NIV. The wording in the KJV cannot be made to imply this.

" For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" (KJV)

But, notice that the 'things that are made' is also in the present tense.????? So in either version you have man and creation appearing at the same time (tensewise). I think the NIV actually phrases it better using past tense.