ACLU sues to stop Arizona's Immigration Law.

[NotreDame]

The ACLU is primarily concerned with civil liberties and keeping the government out of our lives. Something they very much have in common with the Tea Party. The ACLU doesn't want to "illegals to be legal" - they want the government to not harass the legals in order to find the illegals.

Nice euphemistic characterization but the statement by the ACLU representative does not support your positive spin.

Furthermore, what exactly would constitute as "harass the legals in order to find the illegals"?

 

[KarateCowboy]

You are mistaken. The ACLU wants the government out of ALL of our lives. They are FOR religious freedom - but they support religious freedom for EVERYONE, not just Christians.

Here's a list of ACLU actions that SUPPORT Christians freedom of religion

The ACLU Fights for Christians

Check it out.

Mostly right my bearish friend. However I think they sometimes go a little too far when it comes to non-establishment.

 

[NotreDame]

That's a lovely strawman you've created, but the circumstance of someone driving under the influence who cannot speak english or present a driver's license isn't what concerns the ACLU. It's the guy who is walking on the sidewalk in a seedy neighborhood wearing a hoodie with the hood covering his face who is repeatedly stopped then checked. A white person might also be stopped, but they aren't going to check his citizenship.

First of all, it is evidence one is in the country or state legally, as opposes to possessing citizenship. Second, how exactly do you know a white person will not be asked to demonstrate they are in the country legally?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Yet, many conservatives also oppose a national ID system.

A National ID System: Big Brother's Solution to Illegal Immigration

There is bipartisan opposition to a National ID system. It's not just "libs".

What is the first thing we are asked for when we come into contact with a police officer whether we are in a car, on the beach, whereever...?

We are asked for our ID, our driver's license. They "run" our ID and "check us out", make sure we're "legal" and not "wanted" for something.

It is hypocrisy and just plain stupid for liberals to say that people with "brown skin" are being targeted.

 

[JBJoe]

Of course it does. Read it.

Yes, let's do that:

FOR ANY LAWFUL STOP, DETENTION OR ARREST MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE IN THE ENFORCEMENT OF ANY OTHER LAW OR ORDINANCE OF A COUNTY, CITY OR TOWN OR THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN AND IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON, EXCEPT IF THE DETERMINATION MAY HINDER OR OBSTRUCT AN INVESTIGATION. ANY PERSON WHO IS ARRESTED SHALL HAVE THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS DETERMINED BEFORE THE PERSON IS RELEASED.

You see that: ANY lawful stop? This is a well vetted area of law. The police do not need to witness a crime, nor must they know that a crime has been committed to do a stop. Reasonable suspicion is enough. Any lawful stop.

I have read the law.

Have you?

Where are you getting this idea? The kool-aid drinking media? Read the law. No one gets stopped for walking down the street. Do you know why? Because that is not a crime.
This is America, pal!

You need to get out more. It happens all the time. Provided the officer can articulate some reasonable suspicion, which is a much lower threshold of evidence than you think.

No, they are not! Where do you get that idea? It's NOWHERE in the law!
You have been misinformed. Seriously, the law is only 10 pages. Read it!

Why are you so loathe to read the law yourself? My misinformation comes from the law, as ammended. ANY LAWFUL STOP, DETENTION OR ARREST. You know prior to amending, the law read ANY LAWFUL CONTACT.

 

[JBJoe]

First of all, it is evidence one is in the country or state legally, as opposes to possessing citizenship.

Be more specific, what are you referring to?

Second, how exactly do you know a white person will not be asked to demonstrate they are in the country legally?

Because I find it hard to believe that such a person is going to raise reasonable suspicion that they are here illegally, which is a pre-requisite of running the check.

 

[kermit]

You see that: ANY lawful stop? This is a well vetted area of law. The police do not need to witness a crime, nor must they know that a crime has been committed to do a stop. Reasonable suspicion is enough. Any lawful stop.

SCOTUS has already ruled very narrowly that the only exception to the 4th Amendment rule of probable cause is to protect the safety of police. For example checking for weapons. As written, this law is unconstitutional.

 

[Nathan Poe]

The ACLU won't be able to do SQUAT!

That law is LEGAL and CONSTITUTIONAL! It mirrors FEDERAL LAW!

If the American people only knew what is going on in this state and exactly WHO are crossing our borders, they would be SCREAMING for our military on that border!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But...shhhh....no one can know that muslim terrorists are in Arizona and have gained access to this nation by the thousands through Mexico!

Terrorist Threat On Border With Mexico - News Story - WSB Atlanta

All the while, Obama sits and does NOTHING to secure that border! What's it going to take? Arizona police are being MURDERED by illegal immigrants as are our citizens.

I refuse to believe a word you say until you show me your proof of citizenship.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Nice euphemistic characterization but the statement by the ACLU representative does not support your positive spin.

Furthermore, what exactly would constitute as "harass the legals in order to find the illegals"?

Show me your papers and I'll explain it to you.

 

[JBJoe]

SCOTUS has already ruled very narrowly that the only exception to the 4th Amendment rule of probable cause is to protect the safety of police. For example checking for weapons. As written, this law is unconstitutional.

I think you're talking about a Terry stop. The police can stop you and investigate if they have reasonable suspicion that you have, are or are going to commit a crime. In Terry v. Ohio, the stop was initiated because the officer suspected, based on Terry's (and his accomplices) activities, that he was about to commit a crime. I don't think that is very narrow, honestly.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Yes, let's do that:



You see that: ANY lawful stop? This is a well vetted area of law. The police do not need to witness a crime, nor must they know that a crime has been committed to do a stop. Reasonable suspicion is enough. Any lawful stop.

I have read the law.

Have you?



You need to get out more. It happens all the time. Provided the officer can articulate some reasonable suspicion, which is a much lower threshold of evidence than you think.



Why are you so loathe to read the law yourself? My misinformation comes from the law, as ammended. ANY LAWFUL STOP, DETENTION OR ARREST. You know prior to amending, the law read ANY LAWFUL CONTACT.

You and I both know that if a police officer stops someone without probable cause that people are going to be calling the ACLU and screaming "racial profiling". Heck, they are going to do that even if the officer has probable cause.

The law is the law. It is not unconstitutional to ask people who are suspected foreign nationals for proof they are in this country legally.

Political correctness is going to kill us all.

YOU come down to Phoenix and see the sheer number of violent crimes taking place here by illegals, including murder of our police officers and ranchers and other citizens.

Mexican paramilitary organizations have even come to Phoenix and shot up a house, looking for an American, targeted police.

Middle Eastern terrorists are here through that border. They are organizing - something that is being kept hidden from the general public. The congressional report proves that the Federal government is well aware of it but not doing anything about it.

Parts of Phoenix are turning into a war zone. This is America! Something has got to be done! The Federal government REFUSES to do something. This is why Arizona has GOT to do something.

Police officers are moving their families to the outskirts of Phoenix. It's becoming too dangerous to live here. Parts of Phoenix are well-known for the violence caused by illegals. I just moved from an area of town to the outskirts because of regular gunfire and violent crime. It's outrageous! When you are ducking down in an interior hallway at 2 am ON A REGULAR BASIS because of gunfire outside your home or are afraid to go to the grocery because of a running gun battle in the grocery parking lot in the middle of the day, it's time for the authorities to DO something!

SO, since I live here and I have seen what is going on, first-hand, as well as a million other Arizonans who support ousting illegal aliens, it is the epitomy of insulting to have ignorant people outside of this state lecturing us on politically correct treatment of foreign nationals just because their skin is brown. I don't care what color their skin is, just make the violence stop!

 

[Macx]

Eh, the ACLU probably hasn't read the law either. Here it is again: http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf I have yet to hear a reasonable argument against what is actually in the bill. Lots of emmotional arguing by people who haven't read it, but not a shred of opposition articulated above the level of a grade school drop out about what is actually in it.

 

[JBJoe]

You and I both know that if a police officer stops someone without probable cause that people are going to be calling the ACLU and screaming "racial profiling". Heck, they are going to do that even if the officer has probable cause.

Actually I don't know that. What I do know is the difference between probable cause and reasonable suspicion. I suspect that you do not. They can scream to the ACLU if they want, but the Supreme Court has already heard it and ruled that the police can stop you for the much lower standard of reasonable suspicion.

The law is the law. It is not unconstitutional to ask people who are suspected foreign nationals for proof they are in this country legally.

Nope, not at all. But this law doesn't say "ask them" now does it?

Political correctness is going to kill us all.

Take that up with the constitution.

YOU come down to Phoenix and see the sheer number of violent crimes taking place here by illegals, including murder of our police officers and ranchers and other citizens.

Excellent point. Let's give some freedoms to the government in exchange for safety. What could possibly go wrong?

Mexican paramilitary organizations have even come to Phoenix and shot up a house, looking for an American, targeted police.

How do you propose we secure the border such that these organizations cannot come over? Are you willing to pay for BIGGER GOVERNMENT to do so?

Middle Eastern terrorists are here. They are organizing - something that is being kept hidden from the general public.

Are they? Or are you just making the assumption that Middle Easter = Terrorist?

Parts of Phoenix are turning into a war zone. This is America! Something has got to be done! The Federal government REFUSES to do something. This is why Arizona has GOT to do something.

Is there any large city for which this is not true? Do you really think you'll lose the big city problems if you can just make the illegals go away?

Police officers are moving their families to the outskirts of Phoenix. It's becoming too dangerous to live here. Parts of Phoenix are well-known for the violence caused by illegals. I just moved from an area of town to the outskirts because of regular gunfire and violent crime. It's outrageous! When you are ducking down in an interior hallway at 2 am because of gunfire outside your home or are afraid to go to the grocery because of a running gun battle in the grocery parking lot in the middle of the day, it's time for the authorities to DO something!

Oh my goodness, the inner city area of a large city is dangerous! Somebody call the press!

Phoenix is one of the largest cities in the country. I'm sorry that there is a criminal element in a city of 1.6 million, but any time you have that many people, you get a really seedy underside. The illegals are just a convenient scape goat.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Actually I don't know that. What I do know is the difference between probable cause and reasonable suspicion. I suspect that you do not. They can scream to the ACLU if they want, but the Supreme Court has already heard it and ruled that the police can stop you for the much lower standard of reasonable suspicion.



Nope, not at all. But this law doesn't say "ask them" now does it?



Take that up with the constitution.



Excellent point. Let's give some freedoms to the government in exchange for safety. What could possibly go wrong?



How do you propose we secure the border such that these organizations cannot come over? Are you willing to pay for BIGGER GOVERNMENT to do so?



Are they? Or are you just making the assumption that Middle Easter = Terrorist?



Is there any large city for which this is not true? Do you really think you'll lose the big city problems if you can just make the illegals go away?


Oh my goodness, the inner city area of a large city is dangerous! Somebody call the press!

Phoenix is one of the largest cities in the country. I'm sorry that there is a criminal element in a city of 1.6 million, but any time you have that many people, you get a really seedy

You are naive. You are also ignorant as to what is going on here in Arizona. I was in a brand new neighborhood in a growing part of town when the gunfire and violence in the area began. It's not "inner city". It's in the suburbs.

The Federal Government is responsible for the international border. Citizens are dying while they have their state dinners. The Federal government is not protecting it's citizens and seems to care more about "hurting the feelings" of the citizens of foreign nations who are crossing our border illegally.

If the Federal government won't protect it's citizens and would rather make fun of us, then the State government is stepping up.

Again, I don't care what their skin color is, just make the violence stop.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Phoenix is one of the largest cities in the country. I'm sorry that there is a criminal element in a city of 1.6 million, but any time you have that many people, you get a really seedy underside. The illegals are just a convenient scape goat.

No, the FACTS show that the illegals are NOT just a "convenient scape goat". They are CAUSING the majority of violent crime in this city.

 

[KarateCowboy]

Eh, the ACLU probably hasn't read the law either. Here it is again: http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf I have yet to hear a reasonable argument against what is actually in the bill. Lots of emmotional arguing by people who haven't read it, but not a shred of opposition articulated above the level of a grade school drop out about what is actually in it.

Yup. And your post goes completely ignored.

Personally, I think it's racist to stand against this bill.

 

[NotreDame]

Be more specific, what are you referring to?

Because I find it hard to believe that such a person is going to raise reasonable suspicion that they are here illegally, which is a pre-requisite of running the check.

Okay, so in other words you have no evidence or a lucid, sound and logical argument to support your statement. All you have is what you "find hard to believe," which is not a very good argument. Thanks.

 

[JustOneWay]

You are naive. You are also ignorant as to what is going on here in Arizona. I was in a brand new neighborhood in a growing part of town when the gunfire and violence in the area began. It's not "inner city". It's in the suburbs.

The Federal Government is responsible for the international border. Citizens are dying while they have their state dinners. The Federal government is not protecting it's citizens and seems to care more about "hurting the feelings" of the citizens of foreign nations who are crossing our border illegally.

If the Federal government won't protect it's citizens and would rather make fun of us, then the State government is stepping up.

Again, I don't care what their skin color is, just make the violence stop.

How do you know the violence is due to illegal immigrants?

 

[NotreDame]

SCOTUS has already ruled very narrowly that the only exception to the 4th Amendment rule of probable cause is to protect the safety of police. For example checking for weapons. As written, this law is unconstitutional.

Wrong...you do not have a clue what you are talking about. The above could not be a more clear example of a misstatement of law.

You need to read the case of Terry v. Ohio, which permits the seizure of a person to investigate a crime which has occured, or is about to occur, on the basis of reasonable suspicion alone.

As written, your statement is unconditionally incorrect and constitutionally incorrect.

This law satisfies the U.S. Supreme Court's requirement of reasonable suspicion to detain a person to investigate a crime which has occurrred or may occur.

 

[NotreDame]

Show me your papers and I'll explain it to you.

I do not want you explaining anything to me. Thanks for the invitation though.