Abraham fighting Moses: All on the Same Side - A Historicist view of the War in Israel.

The Liturgist

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Exactly. Judaism split, or rather the Israelite religion split into Christianity and Judaism.

Indeed so, this is quite correct, and it is not anti-semite. Considering the efforts that the Catholics and Orthodox went through to help Jews avoid the Holocaust during WWII, and also the assistance the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem provided to Israel, for instance, by leasing them the land on which the Israelis built their parliament building, and our opposition to Islamic terrorism of which we, like the Jews, have historically been victims, there is no basis for accusing us of anti-Semitism. Just as there is no basis for accusing, for instance, Charedi Jews and Chassidic Jews who generally avoid interacting with us most of the time, as being anti-Christian. We are different religions. Occasionally a Christian will convert to Judaism and vice-versa.
 
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The Liturgist

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No, God did not give us the prophecy to confuse us. They are either real or they are fake. I think you are closed to the idea, given the lack of effort you put in. If you try to give an answer. rather than dismiss it we might get somewhere.

We are not saying that he did, we are merely disputing your interpretation. It is not as obvious as you think it is. For example, you assume that Islam is an Abrahamic religion and that it is connected to the Midianites, but you ignore the historic fact that the term Midianites refers to the Persians, and the historical religion of the Persians is Zoroastrianism, which is extremely similar to Judaism and Christianity in that it is a liturgical religion centered around a bloodless sacrifice similar to the mass, albeit involving the ritual use of a consecrated fire (thus the Muslims call the Zoroastrians fire worshippers).

Of the religions in the Middle East, Islam is the one least related to Second Temple Judaism, Christianity, and contemporary Judaism in its worship and doctrine. They may claim descent from Ishmael, but there is no historic evidence to validate that claim, and furthermore, even if it were true, it would only apply to some Muslims of Arab descent, but the majority of Muslims are from elsewhere, from places like Indonesia, India, Pakistan, Africa, Malaysia and Central Asia.

Also there is the issue that of those Middle Eastern religions which are closest to Second Temple Judaism and Christianity, which do not include Islam but which do include some religions that sometimes identify as Sufi, but in other cases reject this identity (see Ishikism), such as the Alawis, Alevis, Bektasis, Yarsanis, Yazidis and Zoroastrians, and of course Samaritanism, which along with Ethiopian Judaism most closely resembles Second Temple Judaism, and finally the Mandaeans of Iraq, who regard themselves as followers of St. John the Baptist but adhere to a Gnostic and anti-Judaic, pro-Mesopotamian theology, but they do undergo baptism weekly, and use a banner that looks like a cross, causing some European travelers to mistake them for Christians, are all much closer in doctrine to Christianity and Second Temple Judaism than Islam.

Yet none of these can be considered to be genuine Abrahamic Religions, since the religion of Abraham became the Hebrew religion , which was separated into what became Samaritanism and Second Temple Judaism and Ethiopian Judaism by the separation of the Kingdom of Israel from the Kingdom of Judah and the conquest of Judah by Babylon, and of the Northern Kingdom of Israel by the Assyrians, so that when the Jews returned from the Babylonian Captivity and began to rebuild under St. Nehemiah the Prophet and St. Ezra the Priest, that religion, Second Temple Judaism, became the Abrahamic Religion. And then on Pentecost, the Abrahamic Religion began to shift towards Christianity, with Christianity having fully separated from Judaism and having definively become the sole religion of Abraham by the time the Second Temple was destroyed by the Romans, and likewise the Christians became the Abrahamic People, owing both to the continuity of faith and also an ethnic continuity facilitated by the very large number of Jewish converts (which has only continued to grow ever since; indeed, in every year since 33 AD the number of Jewish converts to Christianity has exceeded the number of Christian converts to Judaism, in many cases by a considerable margin).

The thing you must understand about the Abrahamic Faith is that there is only one; there can be only one, and the faith we have today is the same religion that was practiced by Abraham. Indeed it is evident that the liturgy celebrated by the Hieratic King Melchizedek, who may have been a Christophany, but this is controversial, but he was in any case clearly a type of Christ, even if he was not actually God the Son, had Eucharistic aspects, and likewise we see the Eucharist anticipated by the Shewbread and the Libations offered in the Tabernacle and the First and Second Temples.
 
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The Liturgist

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Except I don't think Islam is a form of Judaism. It's more a crazy misinterpretation of Christianity than a misinterpretation of Judaism. At best it is a badly mistaken worship of the true God.

I don’t think it is worship of our God at all. The Islamic deity behaves in a wrathful, capricious and impassioned way which and promises a carnal paradise complete with virgin Houris for the benefit of Muslim terrorists, and with free flowing rivers of wine, a pleasure denied Muslims in this life but apparently available in the next, which is consistent with the behavior of Satan.

And we are taught in the New Testament regarding false prophets “by their deeds ye shall know them”, and it is evident when you look at the behavior of Muhammed, for example, his marriage to a six year old girl and his molestation of her at age nine, and other horrible abuses, such as genocides against Christians, like the murder of most members of the Church of the East by Tamerlane and his descendants, and the genocides against the Bulgarians in the 1870s, and the Armenians, Assyrians and Pontic Greeks starting in 1915, and the genocide against the Yazidis and Middle Eastern Christians starting in 2013 in Syria and 2014 in Iraq, that it is clear that the deeds of Islam are wicked, and indeed Islam along with Communism is one of the two most consistently horrible and diabolical religions on the planet. Only the Imperial Shinto and Buddhism of Fascist Japan, and the Nordic Paganism and heretical neo-Marcionite neo-Gnostic “Positive Christianity” of Nazi Germany, have come close to the horrors of Islam and Communism, which have represented the leading forms of human oppression for the past century in the case of Communism and the past millenium in the case of Islam.
 
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The Liturgist

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There are different schools of Islam, and not all of them are bloodthirsty. The kind I ran into in The Gambia wasn't remotely as fanatical as Shiite or Suni. There is horror in Islam but not exclusively. I'm NOT saying that some schools of Islam are salvational. Just that not all of them are horrific. At best they try to worship the true God via the ideas of a fake prophet.

This was also my experience with the Muslims in Ghana. They are very relaxed, and not devout by Islamic standards. Conversely, the Christian majority is extremely devout. This makes for a happy combination.

I would also note the Gambia and Ghana are culturally similar in some respects, and both are former British colonies along with Togo and NIgeria (and in Nigeria the Muslims are quite violent and horrible, and there are numerous other problems, but Nigerian Christians remain pious; a Nigerian Christian was a good friend of mine some years back).
 
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Adventist Heretic

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We are not saying that he did, we are merely disputing your interpretation. It is not as obvious as you think it is. For example, you assume that Islam is an Abrahamic religion and that it is connected to the Midianites,

but you ignore the historic fact that the term Midianites refers to the Persians,
prove that. Not according to the bible. you are using outside information that you say is factual.
and the historical religion of the Persians is Zoroastrianism, which is extremely similar to Judaism and Christianity in that it is a liturgical religion centered around a bloodless sacrifice similar to the mass, albeit involving the ritual use of a consecrated fire (thus the Muslims call the Zoroastrians fire worshippers).
you are talking about the Meads, of the Meads and the Persians not Midian
Midianites:
Of the religions in the Middle East, Islam is the one least related to Second Temple Judaism, Christianity, and contemporary Judaism in its worship and doctrine. They may claim descent from Ishmael, but there is no historic evidence to validate that claim, and furthermore, even if it were true, it would only apply to some Muslims of Arab descent, but the majority of Muslims are from elsewhere, from places like Indonesia, India, Pakistan, Africa, Malaysia and Central Asia.
all of this is just speculation on you part.
Also there is the issue that of those Middle Eastern religions which are closest to Second Temple Judaism and Christianity, which do not include Islam but which do include some religions that sometimes identify as Sufi, but in other cases reject this identity (see Ishikism), such as the Alawis, Alevis, Bektasis, Yarsanis, Yazidis and Zoroastrians, and of course Samaritanism, which along with Ethiopian Judaism most closely resembles Second Temple Judaism, and finally the Mandaeans of Iraq, who regard themselves as followers of St. John the Baptist but adhere to a Gnostic and anti-Judaic, pro-Mesopotamian theology, but they do undergo baptism weekly, and use a banner that looks like a cross, causing some European travelers to mistake them for Christians, are all much closer in doctrine to Christianity and Second Temple Judaism than Islam.
none of this is relevant. none of this has any bearing on the text and the interpretation. this is about how do you interpret the text of revelation. how do you interpret the bible?
Yet none of these can be considered to be genuine Abrahamic Religions, since the religion of Abraham became the Hebrew religion , which was separated into what became Samaritanism and Second Temple Judaism and Ethiopian Judaism by the separation of the Kingdom of Israel from the Kingdom of Judah and the conquest of Judah by Babylon, and of the Northern Kingdom of Israel by the Assyrians, so that when the Jews returned from the Babylonian Captivity and began to rebuild under St. Nehemiah the Prophet and St. Ezra the Priest, that religion, Second Temple Judaism, became the Abrahamic Religion. And then on Pentecost, the Abrahamic Religion began to shift towards Christianity, with Christianity having fully separated from Judaism and having definively become the sole religion of Abraham by the time the Second Temple was destroyed by the Romans, and likewise the Christians became the Abrahamic People, owing both to the continuity of faith and also an ethnic continuity facilitated by the very large number of Jewish converts (which has only continued to grow ever since; indeed, in every year since 33 AD the number of Jewish converts to Christianity has exceeded the number of Christian converts to Judaism, in many cases by a considerable margin).
not relevant
The thing you must understand about the Abrahamic Faith is that there is only one; there can be only one, and the faith we have today is the same religion that was practiced by Abraham.
why can there be 1 and only 1 because you say so? If there can be variations of Christianity and varying degrees of Christianity, why can't there be varying degrees of Abrahamic faiths and variations of Abrahamic faith? your reasoning is not sound. Ishameal is a variation of the Abrahamic faith, so is Lot so is Midian.
Indeed it is evident that the liturgy celebrated by the Hieratic King Melchizedek, who may have been a Christophany, but this is controversial, but he was in any case clearly a type of Christ, even if he was not actually God the Son, had Eucharistic aspects, and likewise we see the Eucharist anticipated by the Shewbread and the Libations offered in the Tabernacle and the First and Second Temples.

What does that have to do with the interpretation of the Locust of Revelation?
 
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Diamond7

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From an eschatological perspective,
Is this whole paragraph a run on sentence?

The Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) contains prophecies that foresee God gathering His people Israel in the end times. These prophecies are found in various books, including the books of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and others. The theme of the regathering of the Jewish people, often referred to as the "ingathering of the exiles," is a central element in eschatological (end times) and messianic prophecies.
One of the most well-known passages regarding this is from the book of Ezekiel, where the Lord promises to regather the people of Israel:
Ezekiel 36:24 (NIV): "For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land."
Ezekiel 37:21 (NIV): "and say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land.'"
These prophecies are often associated with the concept of the restoration of Israel, the coming of the Messiah, and the establishment of a time of peace and righteousness. They are significant in both Jewish and Christian eschatology, and they express the hope of a future reunification and restoration of the Jewish people in their homeland.
 
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The Liturgist

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Since the job of Islam, according to Rev 9, is to punish rebellion against God, it would look like that to a rebel

Revelation IX doesn’t mention Islam, in any capacity. The idea that it does is merely your assumption, and it is deeply offensive that you accuse me of rebellion against God because I disagree with your interpretation of the Apocalypse of St. John (as Revelation is more properly known as). It is even more offensive that you would assign this status to middle Eastern Christians.

@MarkRohfrietsch @dzheremi @ViaCrucis @concretecamper @Michie @chevyontheriver @prodromos @Lukaris @clare79 and my other dear friends, am I missing something, because the last time I read revelation I was reasonably certain that Muhammed was not mentioned, but rather falls into the category of Wolves in Sheeps Clothing, false teachers and false messiahs, that Christ warned us about (actually the terrorist who claimed to be the Muslim Messiah, the Mahdi, or “expected one” who in the end times is supposed to appear along with our Lord, and together they will kill all the infidels, including us, presumably, in what were it not for the whole genocide against non-Muslims aspect and the whole blasphemy thing would sound a bit like a hardcore action movie of the early 1990s sequel variety, a bit like if Terminator 3, instead of being the lameness it actually was, had Arnold Schwarzenegger and the dude who played the T1000 team up to save John Connor again, this time from newer and more frightening terminators. But of course, Muhammed Ahmed al Mahdi, who claimed to be the Mahdi, fits the false Messiah profile exactly, and was in fact one of the first modern Islamic terriorists, killing all the Egyptians in Sudan as well as all of the Sudanese who opposed him by remaining in Khartoum rather than fleeing to the Mahdi’s camp when they had a chance, and General Gordon, who was in command of the hopeless defense of the city, was also killed, apparently against Muhammed Ahmed al Mahdi’s orders, and then the alleged Mahdi died mysteriously four days later, but his sect of Sufi fanatics, the Ansaris, would rule Sudan for another decade, and still exists today. Indeed Alexander Siddig, who played Dr. Julian Bashir in Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, is a descendant of Muhammed Ahmed al Mahdi.

And of course these weren’t the only wolves in sheep’s clothing. We had Joseph Smith, L Ron Hubbard, Mary Baker Eddy, the Bab and his self-proclaimed successor Bah’ou’allah, founder of the Bahai religion, Emanuel Swedenborg, who is one of those Swedes who makes me cringe at being of Swedish descent, particularly since he had to have the most obviously Swedish last name imaginable.

But the whole premise of this thread is starting to deeply trouble me in terms of what seems like a callous disregard of the persecuted Middle Eastern Christians.
 
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The Liturgist

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if you followed the interpretation of Revelation 9 it would explain all of this. you would expect God to say something about this and he did. The Star would fall meaning the messenger would not submit, the one who called for obedience did not continue to obey God he fell away.

I disagree with your interpretation. If anyone fell away it was Muhammed, who appears to have begun catechesis as a Christian but then apostatized and started his own religion based on demons, and follows the type of the Antichrist, or the Beast (who appears to be Nero, based on Hebrew numerology).

I know of no Christians who obey God more faithfully than the pious Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant Christians of the Middle East.

And indeed are you unaware that the fact that they have received martyrdoms proves their good faith? It is the churches that have received the most crowns of martyrdoms that we can say are the more glorious, because to be martyred is to be guaranteed salvation, according to Christ our True God. For God the Son said “He who confesses me before men, I shall confess before the Father.” For this reason, the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches and the Assyrian Church of the East, and as far as I am aware, the Eastern Catholics, automatically declare as martyrs anyone killed for testifying to their faith.

However unlike the Muslims we do not assign this title to soldiers who die in battle.

I should also say I would entirely reject your argument if you claimed the Muslims were being sent by God to punish the Jews, for regardless of how one feels about the politics, sending paragliders into a music festival with automatic weapons and killing everyone cannot be justified.

Nor can the reverse, such as bombing the only church in the Gaza Strip, or at least, certain buildings that are a part of it (it is unclear what exactly is going on, but the Jerusalem Patriarchate did indicate the church, which was theirs, had been destroyed).

And what have the Middle Eastern Christians done, in your mind, which warrants this punishment?
 
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The Liturgist

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Is this whole paragraph a run on sentence?

Perhaps you are referring to someone else’s posts? My post was divided into multiple paragraphs, on the basis of the concepts contained in each one. And while I do aim for three sentences per paragraph, this is a goal I pursue as an average, with some paragraphs having more sentences, and others having fewer, sometimes longer, sentences, although I should note there is a considerable conceptual difference between a long sentence and a run-on sentence.

The Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) contains prophecies that foresee God gathering His people Israel in the end times. These prophecies are found in various books, including the books of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and others. The theme of the regathering of the Jewish people, often referred to as the "ingathering of the exiles," is a central element in eschatological (end times) and messianic prophecies.
One of the most well-known passages regarding this is from the book of Ezekiel, where the Lord promises to regather the people of Israel:
Ezekiel 36:24 (NIV): "For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land."
Ezekiel 37:21 (NIV): "and say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land.'"
These prophecies are often associated with the concept of the restoration of Israel, the coming of the Messiah, and the establishment of a time of peace and righteousness. They are significant in both Jewish and Christian eschatology, and they express the hope of a future reunification and restoration of the Jewish people in their homeland.

I don’t know which paragraph you are referring to, but considering that all of the Jews have not been gathered in Israel, and many of them believe that this gathering in the Holy Land will occur only when at least one of their two Messiahs (they now believe there will be two, one descended from David and one from Joseph), arrives. Although Reform Judaism has de-personalized the Messiah and distributed the Messianic concept to all Jews, whether those who were born into Judaism or converted. There is also the Kaballistic view that the sephirot of God must be reassembled through the actions of mystical Jews practicing Kaballah.

There was a science fiction series made in the mid 2000, a mini series entitled the Lost Room, which is based around the idea of Kaballah, in the same way the Matrix provides a sort of basic overview of the ideas of Gnosticism, with Neo representing the Gnostic conception of Jesus and the Architect representing the incompetent demiurge the Gnostic heretics believe created the universe.

Of course these ideas are to be rejected, but regarding the interpretation of Revelation, I believe people are spending too much time on it, and not enough time praying for the persecuted Christians of the Middle East and doing things to stop the continual genocide against them. For it was not the Palestinian Christians who engaged in the utterly reprehensible Hamas terrorist attacks against the State of Israel, yet the Christians in Gaza are being made to suffer for it.

And also, to return to my first point, since a substantial number of Jews do not live in Israel, but instead, for reasons related to safety, economic opportunity, personal preference, national identity, or in the case of Chassidic and Charedi Judaism, opposition to Zionism as a political movement on religious grounds, a very large number of Jews continue to live in the United States and Canada, with sizable populations in Europe, especially the United Kingdom, and Australia, and the former Soviet Union.*

If all or almost all of the Jewish population lived in the State of Israel, these interpretations of Revelation could be treated seriously, but since this is not the case, clearly, if your interpretation is correct, it is not yet at present the case.

*Indeed the president of Ukraine is a member of the Jewish minority (a friend of mine, because every Ukrainian he had met was Jewish, was convinced that all Ukrainians were Jewish and that the tragic conflict between the Russians and Ukrainians was some kind of anti-Semitic thing, unaware that in both Ukraine and Russia Jews are a minority, and also about the anti-Semitism of historic figures presently regarded as national heroes by many in both countries, for example, the SS unit “Galicia” in Ukraine, and Joseph Stalin in Russia, who inexplicably has attracted a cult of personality to the extent that some lunatics are trying to persuade the Orthodox Church to glorify him as a saint, which will never happen, considering that the Cathedral of the Holy Savior in Moscow which is the most important church in Russia is a replica of a church Stalin had blown up in the early 1930s using a large amount of TNT (so that rather than being demolished, it was literally blown apart in an explosion), as he wanted to build a monument to international communism on that location, but never got around to it, and in this manner it remained an empty field until happily, after the downfall of communism, the church was rebuilt. But what is often forgotten is that the Jews were frequent targets of Stalin’s purges, although the Soviets tried to make them not appear to the West as anti-Semtiic, by using the phrase “Rootless cosmopolitans” as a sort of code word or Euphemism for the Jews. The most absurd of these purges was the “Doctors Plot” in which hundreds of leading Jewish physicians in Moscow were rounded up and executed based on a baseless accusation that they were plotting to poison the Soviet leadership.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Revelation IX doesn’t mention Islam, in any capacity. The idea that it does is merely your assumption, and it is deeply offensive that you accuse me of rebellion against God because I disagree with your interpretation of the Apocalypse of St. John (as Revelation is more properly known as). It is even more offensive that you would assign this status to middle Eastern Christians.
Agreed.
@MarkRohfrietsch @dzheremi @ViaCrucis @concretecamper @Michie @chevyontheriver @prodromos @Lukaris @clare79 and my other dear friends, am I missing something, because the last time I read revelation I was reasonably certain that Muhammed was not mentioned, but rather falls into the category of Wolves in Sheeps Clothing, false teachers and false messiahs, that Christ warned us about
Not missing anything. It is simple eisegesis, the forcing of the text to say something it does not actually say, to presume Islam is intended in Rev. 9.
But the whole premise of this thread is starting to deeply trouble me in terms of what seems like a callous disregard of the persecuted Middle Eastern Christians.
Again, agreed. Not that the Adventist Heretic is anti-Semitic but since October 7th a surprising amount of anti-Semitic sentiment has surfaced almost overnight. It’s as if Hitler’s Mufti lives.
 
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dzheremi

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the last time I read revelation I was reasonably certain that Muhammed was not mentioned

I don't recall him being there, either. Not even when we read it in the Islamic god's favorite language in church.
 
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The Liturgist

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What does that have to do with the interpretation of the Locust of Revelation?

My point is that there has only ever been one legitimate divine religion, only one legitimate “Abrahamic” faith, and it has always existed - it is the Church, the Body of Christ, which before the Incarnation of our Savior existed in the form of Second Temple Judaism, before that, in the form of Judaism-in-Exile, and before that, in the form of the First Temple religion of the Hebrews, and before that, in the Tabernacle religion, and before the Tabernacle existed, and the liturgies of it as described in Leviticus, which remained the liturgies of the Temple, it was the religion of the Israelites in Egypt, as reformed by Moses and his brother Aaron, with the first Pascha, which was a typological prophecy of the Second Pascha*, and before that time it was the religion of Abraham and his sons, at which time there was not one Kohen or Levite, but rather Abraham sought out the Hierus Melchizedek, the King of Peace, who may or may not have been Jesus Christ, but who represented Him typologically, as is explained in the Epistle of St. Paul to the Hebrews**. And before Abraham, the religion of our God, the Holy Trinity, who we know through His incarnation as Jesus Christ, was the God of Noah and His sons, the God who destroyed Babel and blessed us with a diversity of languages which make the world more interesting than if we had just had one, and before that, He was the God who created Adam and Eve and was disobeyed by them, creating a right proper mess for all of us, and the God who they worshipped in repentance, and the God of their descendants, particularly the pious ones like Methuselah and Enoch, as opposed to those who were so bad it was necessary for a large scale flood to wash them off the earth (although they are in the same position as anyone from antiquity, in that thanks to the Harrowing of Hell, they were not deprived a pathway to salvation.

However, Islam is not an Abrahamic religion, Samaritanism is not an Abrahamic religion, although it is obviously the religion of the survivors of the Northern Kingdom, specifically the tribes of Ephraim and Manessah, and the Levites and Kohanim who served them as priests, and for that matter Rabinnical Judaism and Karaite Judaism are not Abrahamic religions, although the Jewish people are still blessed by God, but it is important that they embrace Christ as their Messiah, and so it is entirely proper for Christians to seek to evangelize the Jews and to convert them to Christianity, and to pray for such, since contemporary Judaism has clearly drifted considerably.


*As an interesting aside, for me at least, the doctrine of the Harrowing of Hell means that the firstborn sons of Egypt killed in the first Pascha were potentially, indeed I should say probably, saved by the firstborn son of God in the second Pascha on Holy Saturday, when he was in Hell making a ruin of it before His resurrection, and likewise their families; insofar as God was harsh with people during the era of the law, as St. Paul explained, it was like we were the heir to the estate, but still a child, and how a child, even though he is the heir to an estate, is like a slave in that he has governors and tutors and conservators of the estate, but when he becomes of age, he becomes free, in Galatians. But we must not forget that God is infinitely loving, and made provision for the salvation of people before Christianity became available, and this by the way is not a Universalist teaching, in that the people who our Lord reached out to in Hades, the realm of the dead, were free to refuse him and remain down there, or they could follow Him up to heaven, the only time that has perhaps been possible up until now, although it is possible that some people who presently appear to be damned and are tormented spiritually might, through prayers for their salvation, be relieved of some torment, and might be permitted by our Lord to enter into the life of the World to Come, but it is much safer to build a solid foundation for our salvation as much as we can (which is to say, not at all by ourselves, but only through cooperating with the Holy Spirit, for without the Spirit, we are building on sand, to use a parable of Christ our God).

**This I believe was probably written by St. Luke based on a sermon by St. Paul, based on its elegant and refined Greek prose which is stylistically superior to that of St. Paul, and it is generally well known that St. Luke was the most stylistically elegant author in the New Testament when it came to his Greek prose, however, St. John translates very well into English, especially his Gospel, even though his original Greek reads like the Greek you would expect from a teenaged Galilean fisherman who suddenly learned Greek but had no immediate occasion to use it, no doubt through the assistance of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, when the Apostles suddenly found themselves equipped with an array of languages they did not previously know, but while the Holy Spirit could convey perfect Greek, and probably did, I would expect that the members of the twelve experienced a deterioration of their skills over time, as often happens with people who know multiple languages but do not speak one of them for an extended duration. But in English translation, St. John reads as being exquisite. Also exquisite is the interpolated section which is not attested in the original manuscripts concerning the woman who was caught in adultery, whose execution our Lord prevented with his famous suggestion that “He who is with sin should cast the first stone,” which convicted her would-be executioners of sin and saved her life. That part translates extremely well in its details, indeed it reads with the elegance of the finest literature, for example, details like our Lord writing in the sand and sitting, apparently just chilling, when the event occurred, but of course, He was there for a reason, and that reason was the same reason why Christ our Lord, God and Savior is anywhere and everywhere, and that is, to save us by making present God the Father, as His only begotten Son and Word.

Still, it is interesting to consider who actually wrote the interpolated section, perhaps it being a Johannine scripture but one narrated by him elsewhere, or perhaps it is a fragment of the lost Q document, or of the Gospel of Peter, or perhaps the oldest manuscripts we have are all defective, but this seems unlikely. Although given that the Revised Common Lectionary manages to exclude that vital passage, despite having three years to get around to reading it (except for those churches wise enough to use Year D, which includes it and focuses on the Gospel of John), it is I suppose possible.
 
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Adventist Heretic

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I disagree with your interpretation.

If anyone fell away it was Muhammed, who appears to have begun catechesis as a Christian but then apostatized and started his own religion based on demons, and follows the type of the Antichrist, or the Beast (who appears to be Nero, based on Hebrew numerology).
What you are saying is part of the interpretation. The "Star" that "fell" was Muhammed. he was called but did not continue to submit, but he was called. You said he started out as a Christian, well that is what the prophecy indicates. Remember when God, Calls, it is irrevocable. It says in his anger against sin, they would Suppress the glory of God,( the sun being smothered) and stifle the Holy Spirit (the air being polluted).
I know of no Christians who obey God more faithfully than the pious Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant Christians of the Middle East.

And indeed are you unaware that the fact that they have received martyrdoms proves their good faith? It is the churches that have received the most crowns of martyrdoms that we can say are the more glorious, because to be martyred is to be guaranteed salvation, according to Christ our True God. For God the Son said “He who confesses me before men, I shall confess before the Father.” For this reason, the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches and the Assyrian Church of the East, and as far as I am aware, the Eastern Catholics, automatically declare as martyrs anyone killed for testifying to their faith.

However unlike the Muslims we do not assign this title to soldiers who die in battle.

I should also say I would entirely reject your argument if you claimed the Muslims were being sent by God to punish the Jews, for regardless of how one feels about the politics, sending paragliders into a music festival with automatic weapons and killing everyone cannot be justified.

Nor can the reverse, such as bombing the only church in the Gaza Strip, or at least, certain buildings that are a part of it (it is unclear what exactly is going on, but the Jerusalem Patriarchate did indicate the church, which was theirs, had been destroyed).

And what have the Middle Eastern Christians done, in your mind, which warrants this punishment?
1. we are talking about when Islam first arose.
2. If the same sins are being committed then it would apply, stop doing them, and the problem goes away.
3. this understanding may have been forgotten, so I am bringing it up. If this is correct it is the way to get them to stop.

4. The most obvious complaint I have heard from Muslims is that Christians are immoral and they are idolaters, but there are more.

a. The statutes and the Icons are a problem.
b. Praying to Mary and the Saints is a problem
c. Sexual sin is a problem they think Christians are perverts, so in their mind, they are doing people a favor by getting rid of them. rightly or wrongly so that is what they think.
d. Seeking political power, The Chruch State Alliance. "My Kingdom is not of this world," Says Jesus. Saw a Coptic bishop do this and brought problems on himself.
e. There are stories of Christian Missionaries trying to break up Muslim homes because of the multiple marriages. Why? The church dealt with this in the first 4 centuries. "Let the elder be the husband of 1 wife" They could join but they could not lead. leaders are to be proper representatives of Christ. By breaking up homes they are bringing unnecessary abuse on themselves.
f. then there is the food issue. Pork. if it makes them mad don't eat it.
g. alcohol don't drink it.
h. gambling, don't gamble.

Islam's purpose is to protect the Abrahamic & Mosaic Covenants, there is another prophecy in Revelation on the 5 months, that explains the Muslim dominance until the time God needed to restore the Kingdom of God, Israel. I think this is the KEY to the Evangelising of Muslims and making peace in the Middle East. So I am bringing this up to remind people of this.
 
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Adventist Heretic

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Agreed.

Not missing anything. It is simple eisegesis, the forcing of the text to say something it does not actually say, to presume Islam is intended in Rev. 9.

Again, agreed. Not that the Adventist Heretic is anti-Semitic but since October 7th a surprising amount of anti-Semitic sentiment has surfaced almost overnight. It’s as if Hitler’s Mufti lives.
I am very much in favor of Israel, it is a sign of the end, but based on the prophecies I think Islam is part of the Abrahamic Covenant and there to protect the Abrahamic & Mosaic covenant. They are the Strength of Abraham. They have done that and now God needs them to move over and stop fighting him. They should be working together. this is the way to bring peace. Acknowledge the role they play and God's work and acknowledge the problems as well. Islam thinks they are being faithful to Allah because they have forgotten their role.
 
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The Liturgist

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What you are saying is part of the interpretation. The "Star" that "fell" was Muhammed. he was called but did not continue to submit, but he was called. You said he started out as a Christian, well that is what the prophecy indicates. Remember when God, Calls, it is irrevocable. It says in his anger against sin, they would Suppress the glory of God,( the sun being smothered) and stifle the Holy Spirit (the air being polluted).



1. we are talking about when Islam first arose.
2. If the same sins are being committed then it would apply, stop doing them, and the problem goes away.
3. this understanding may have been forgotten, so I am bringing it up. If this is correct it is the way to get them to stop.

4. The most obvious complaint I have heard from Muslims is that Christians are immoral and they are idolaters, but there are more.

a. The statutes and the Icons are a problem.
b. Praying to Mary and the Saints is a problem
c. Sexual sin is a problem they think Christians are perverts, so in their mind, they are doing people a favor by getting rid of them. rightly or wrongly so that is what they think.
d. Seeking political power, The Chruch State Alliance. "My Kingdom is not of this world," Says Jesus. Saw a Coptic bishop do this and brought problems on himself.
e. There are stories of Christian Missionaries trying to break up Muslim homes because of the multiple marriages. Why? The church dealt with this in the first 4 centuries. "Let the elder be the husband of 1 wife" They could join but they could not lead. leaders are to be proper representatives of Christ. By breaking up homes they are bringing unnecessary abuse on themselves.
f. then there is the food issue. Pork. if it makes them mad don't eat it.
g. alcohol don't drink it.
h. gambling, don't gamble.

Islam's purpose is to protect the Abrahamic & Mosaic Covenants, there is another prophecy in Revelation on the 5 months, that explains the Muslim dominance until the time God needed to restore the Kingdom of God, Israel. I think this is the KEY to the Evangelising of Muslims and making peace in the Middle East. So I am bringing this up to remind people of this.

So you’re saying that Orthodox Christians deserve to suffer because we disagree with your antidicomarianite, Iconoclastic, Nestorian theology, and the Muslims have been divinely sanctioned to punish us? Really, is that your argument?

Also you have not proven that Revelation refers to Muhammed. Actually the verse you are quoting is largely considered to refer to the devil. Now Muhammed was subject to demonaiac attacks. However he was hardly a fallen star. All evidence suggests that he was not a Christian catechumen but rather the hearer of a highly heretical sect, one which taught that the Holy Trinity consisted of the Father, the Son and the Virgin Mary, or else an Arian sect that lied after the manner of J/Ws and Mormons and made false claims about the Orthodox, accusing us of including the Virgin Mary in the Trinity. Either way such a sect was not part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church as defined as those churches with doctrinal adherence the Nicene Creed, and was instead Arian or Collyridian, and as such could actually hurt rather than help his salvation.
 
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So you’re saying that Orthodox Christians deserve to suffer because we disagree with your antidicomarianite, Iconoclastic, Nestorian theology, and the Muslims have been divinely sanctioned to punish us? Really, is that your argument?
Yep. that has been the protestant view for 500 years. I am saying that if the Church is not following what God says, they need to do what God says and the problem disappears. Those things are not a problem to you, but try looking at them from God's perspective, elevating a human to the level of the divine, making statutes, bowing down, and praying to them. I believe there are commands against that. 1,2 & 3.
Also you have not proven that Revelation refers to Muhammed.

Actually the verse you are quoting is largely considered to refer to the devil.
exactly how did you come to that conclusion.
Now Muhammed was subject to demonaiac attacks.
how did you come to that conclusion?
However he was hardly a fallen star.
The star in Revelation is a messenger, Revelation 1:20 star = angel = messenger, so a fallen star = a fallen angel = fallen messenger = Muhammed. That is just 1 piece of the puzzle.
Locust - Judgement - Exodus 10: 12-15Joel 1:4, Mal 3:11
Locust - clean according to mosaic law and can be used to sustain life. Lev. 11:22, Mark 1:4
Are associated with the 3rd son of Abraham - Judges 7:12

so there you have it, a messenger who did not submit, who was to bring judgment, would clean according to Moses and be associated with Abraham.

Now I have shown you mine show me why it is not correct.

The Smoke from the pit= God's anger P.S. 74:1 https://www.bibletools.org/index.cf...D/cgg/ID/20845/Fire-Kindled-by-Gods-Anger.htm

The Sun - (Psalms 19:4-7) law of God or the word of God, (Psalms 84:11) favor, Revelation 1:16; 12:1 the Lord's Face, The Covering of LIght.

Air - John 3:8 Holy Spirit

Now in their anger, they quenched the spirit and dampened the light of God's word. They say that Mohommad was the last prophet, the holy spirit stopped working, and they confuse and suppress the word of God.
All evidence suggests that he was not a Christian catechumen but rather the hearer of a highly heretical sect, one which taught that the Holy Trinity consisted of the Father, the Son and the Virgin Mary, or else an Arian sect that lied after the manner of J/Ws and Mormons and made false claims about the Orthodox, accusing us of including the Virgin Mary in the Trinity.
None of that matters.
Either way such a sect was not part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church as defined as those churches with doctrinal adherence the Nicene Creed, and was instead Arian or Collyridian, and as such could actually hurt rather than help his salvation.
So what.
 
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Yep. that has been the protestant view for 500 years.

You are the only person on ChristianForums who I have seen articulate a view that dehumanizes the Christians of the Middle East, devalues their suffering, and glorifies their persecutor. I should add that I know of no Protestant members on ChristianForums who adhere to such a view (you may disagree, but I classify Adventism as Restorationist, which is not a negative thing, for the Stone/Campbell Movement and the Quakers are Restorationist, and I really like both groups, and several other churches are also in this group, including the Plymouth Brethren, who I find very interesting, but I particularly like the Quakers and the Stone/Campbell Movement.

At any rate, my Lutheran friend @MarkRohfrietsch and other Lutheran members certainly haven’t said anything like that, nor have my Anglican friends, nor anyone else.

Also, the Christians suffering include not just Orthodox, but Catholics, Protestants, and even Seventh Day Adventists, for your own denomination actively preached among Middle Eastern Christians of the Orthodox faith and converted some of them.

This is a very unpleasant thing you’ve said, which is not supported by the scriptural text, and which also fails to understand the value of martyrdom.

Which ever church has the most martyrs is the church I want to be a member of, but that doesn’t mean the people who are martyring Christians are good by any means. Rather, they are evil people, who while we luxuriate in the West free from actual religious persecution on this level, Muslims do it in the Middle East.

There is no connection between Revelations and this persecution other than Mohammed is a type of the Antichrist in the same way Nero was a type of the antichrist, since we know the 666 was most likely a Hebrew numerological cypher for his name and title, using the numerical values the jews assigned, or received from, the Aramaeans, when they changed alphabets from Paleo-Hebrew to Imperial Aramaic.

At any rate, I must ask you to retract this post as it is extremely offensive, particularly to someone like me who is strongly connected to both Protestantism and Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy, and who has a deep love for the Roman Catholic Church.
 
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You are the only person on ChristianForums who I have seen articulate a view that dehumanizes the Christians of the Middle East, devalues their suffering, and glorifies their persecutor.
I am sorry you don't like the view. I am not the one who made it up. Nor am I dehumanizing the suffering of Christians. I am simply stating an interpretation that has been the Historicist view. It is amazing to me that Islam calls for submission, and obedience. now stop and ask the question why would they do that? maybe because people are not obeying?
I should add that I know of no Protestant members on ChristianForums who adhere to such a view
then either they have forgotten the view because it is the Protestant view or they are keeping it to themselves. I believe it is the key to creating peace in the Middle East.
(you may disagree, but I classify Adventism as Restorationist, which is not a negative thing, for the Stone/Campbell Movement and the Quakers are Restorationist, and I really like both groups, and several other churches are also in this group, including the Plymouth Brethren, who I find very interesting, but I particularly like the Quakers and the Stone/Campbell Movement.

At any rate, my Lutheran friend @MarkRohfrietsch and other Lutheran members certainly haven’t said anything like that, nor have my Anglican friends, nor anyone else.
that is probably because they don't know it. They have forgotten it. I have not even told you all of it.
Also, the Christians suffering include not just Orthodox, but Catholics, Protestants, and even Seventh Day Adventists, for your own denomination actively preached among Middle Eastern Christians of the Orthodox faith and converted some of them.
this is not to say that Islam is right in everything they do. They go waaaay too far on things, but that is part of the obscuring the light of God. There is a part of the teaching where they were commanded not to touch the trees and the grass, that being the living things where are metaphors for the faithful believers but they forget that. Muhammad gave the order and signed it with his own had.
This is a very unpleasant thing you’ve said, which is not supported by the scriptural text, and which also fails to understand the value of martyrdom.
I think I have supported it very well, it is not to your liking, but it is under your control.
Which ever church has the most martyrs is the church I want to be a member of,
that is a very odd and disturbing thing to say. martyrdom is not the goal of Christianity that does not prove anything. If you want to be a good martyr convert to Islam, you'll get 70 virgins in the after life.
but that doesn’t mean the people who are martyring Christians are good by any means. Rather, they are evil people, who while we luxuriate in the West free from actual religious persecution on this level, Muslims do it in the Middle East.
There is no connection between Revelations and this persecution other than Mohammed is a type of the Antichrist in the same way
wishing away an interpretation that you don't like does not change the interpretation.
Nero was a type of the antichrist, since we know the 666 was most likely a Hebrew numerological cypher for his name and title, using the numerical values the jews assigned, or received from, the Aramaeans, when they changed alphabets from Paleo-Hebrew to Imperial Aramaic.

At any rate, I must ask you to retract this post as it is extremely offensive,
no. this is a public forum. it is a teaching that has been in the church for 500 years. it is not my fault you are unaware and that you are offended. I guess having maryters is preferable. if you can stop the martyrdom, by obeying God then why would you be offended? That is why I am bringing it up. stop sinning, stop dying. seems like an obvious solution to me.
particularly to someone like me who is strongly connected to both Protestantism and Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy, and who has a deep love for the Roman Catholic Church.
I am sorry your love for those Churches is causing you a problem, but you should love them enough to tell them that there is a solution to their suffering. love god with all your heart and love him enough to obey him.
 
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This passage speaks of locusts emerging from a smoky abyss. Anglo-American scholars in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries almost universally believed that this passage referred to the rise of Islam in the early seventh century.
 
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