About the Soul

[Михаил Сотник]

There is such a question: when does the soul appear in the human body?
Let's think in order…
Does everything belong to God in this universe? The answer for a believer is obvious: "Yes, of course!". Then the following question immediately arises: once EVERYTHING, absolutely everything. Belongs to God, and initially, since He is the Creator of everything, then why should He "give" His soul to the Earth? That is, where she can die (die in the meaning lost connection with God)?! After all, it is not logical ... to give away what a priori belongs to you in order to get back not all 100% of souls, but only those who can pass into the Kingdom of Heaven. How can you answer this? Maybe He wants to "test loyalty to Himself" these very souls? But then it means that the Creator is "not sure" of his own creation, and this is excluded, because everything created by God is perfect!
Then there is only one answer: The souls themselves ask God for this, that is, to be sent to Earth. What for? This is already a rhetorical question, maybe because they want to help those who are already on Earth, or they want to experience some "earthly joys", or else on some whim of their own, but, one way or another, this is exactly their wish. And God, as their Creator, only by His love for His creation and their freedom of will, allows them to escape from Him to where they are threatened with serious trials, and even death…
But here we need to take into account one more essential "but" ... souls who have gone to Earth "forget" everything that happened before coming to Earth, including their Creator…
This assumption answers some frequently asked and important questions. For example, the Lord says that "the Kingdom of heaven is within you" The Gospel of Luke.... That is, the Kingdom of Heaven did not go anywhere from the soul. After all, it is really in us all the time, in our memory, which is a little "spoiled" by coming to Earth. You just need to remember everything. Then an episode from the Gospel about the Transfiguration, when the apostle Peter immediately recognized Elijah and Moses next to Christ. How did he recognize them? There were no photographs or even drawings at that time (the Jews did not depict people). But taking into account that the Transfiguration is a return to the Kingdom of Heaven, then one can understand that "at home" the memory of the soul returned, and the apostles would easily recognize everyone who could stand next to the Savior! Another remark that often hovers among people: "I didn't ask to come here (to Earth, to this life), so what do you all want from me...". But considering that the soul itself asked to come here, then in fact everything is not so… Each of us asked to come here, to live among people on Earth, so we don't have to wait for something from other people.

 

[eleos1954]

There is such a question: when does the soul appear in the human body?
Let's think in order…
Does everything belong to God in this universe? The answer for a believer is obvious: "Yes, of course!". Then the following question immediately arises: once EVERYTHING, absolutely everything. Belongs to God, and initially, since He is the Creator of everything, then why should He "give" His soul to the Earth? That is, where she can die (die in the meaning lost connection with God)?! After all, it is not logical ... to give away what a priori belongs to you in order to get back not all 100% of souls, but only those who can pass into the Kingdom of Heaven. How can you answer this? Maybe He wants to "test loyalty to Himself" these very souls? But then it means that the Creator is "not sure" of his own creation, and this is excluded, because everything created by God is perfect!
Then there is only one answer: The souls themselves ask God for this, that is, to be sent to Earth. What for? This is already a rhetorical question, maybe because they want to help those who are already on Earth, or they want to experience some "earthly joys", or else on some whim of their own, but, one way or another, this is exactly their wish. And God, as their Creator, only by His love for His creation and their freedom of will, allows them to escape from Him to where they are threatened with serious trials, and even death…
But here we need to take into account one more essential "but" ... souls who have gone to Earth "forget" everything that happened before coming to Earth, including their Creator…
This assumption answers some frequently asked and important questions. For example, the Lord says that "the Kingdom of heaven is within you" The Gospel of Luke.... That is, the Kingdom of Heaven did not go anywhere from the soul. After all, it is really in us all the time, in our memory, which is a little "spoiled" by coming to Earth. You just need to remember everything. Then an episode from the Gospel about the Transfiguration, when the apostle Peter immediately recognized Elijah and Moses next to Christ. How did he recognize them? There were no photographs or even drawings at that time (the Jews did not depict people). But taking into account that the Transfiguration is a return to the Kingdom of Heaven, then one can understand that "at home" the memory of the soul returned, and the apostles would easily recognize everyone who could stand next to the Savior! Another remark that often hovers among people: "I didn't ask to come here (to Earth, to this life), so what do you all want from me...". But considering that the soul itself asked to come here, then in fact everything is not so… Each of us asked to come here, to live among people on Earth, so we don't have to wait for something from other people.

We don't/didn't have a pre-existence before conception .... God does know the future ... who will be born and what thier earthly lives will be like. Nobody "asks" to come here. How they knew the appearance of Elijah and Moses is not stated ... the fact is they knew.

 

[Diamond7]

There is such a question: when does the soul appear in the human body?
Let's think in order…
Does everything belong to God in this universe? The answer for a believer is obvious: "Yes, of course!".

The soul appears in the body at conception. We are given all of our gifts, talents and abilities on or before conception. We need to use what we have to bring praise, honor & glory to God. Some people believe that we were a part of God before coming to earth to take on a body made from the dust (elements)of the earth.

I know this for sure because I had a dream about my daughter in heaven. Because of an IUD she never made it to the womb. In the dream she was like two or three years old. If she had been born she would have been around 40 years old now.

God declares the end from the beginning and then he watches over His word to perform what He "said" He was going to do. So creation is a ongoing process of perfection.

 

[Михаил Сотник]

We don't/didn't have a pre-existence before conception .... God does know the future ... who will be born and what thier earthly lives will be like. Nobody "asks" to come here. How they knew the appearance of Elijah and Moses is not stated ... the fact is they knew.

Can you please prove the first concept about "no pre existence"
God knows everything, but what is it about here?
Nobody "asks" to come here. How can you know that? Only because you don't remember? But it only proves my idea about oblivion.
About Transfiguration, apostols recognized those who were with Christ, cause they came back to Kingdom of Heaven and thus memory revived

 

[eleos1954]

Can you please prove the first concept about "no pre existence"
God knows everything, but what is it about here?
Nobody "asks" to come here. How can you know that? Only because you don't remember? But it only proves my idea about oblivion.
About Transfiguration, apostols recognized those who were with Christ, cause they came back to Kingdom of Heaven and thus memory revived

You don't know this. It is speculative how ... the fact is they knew.

Bible says man was created from the dust of the earth and given the ability to pro-create.

Other Speculation

Jesus would have known what they looked like .... there was a conversation that took place ... he could have called them by name

The Father through the Holy Spirit could have revealed it to them.

There is nothing written to suggest we had a previous life. That would lend to the idea of an immortal soul/spirit of some kind (some believe this ... so be it ... I do not) ... there is nothing immortal about us so says Gods Word .... that happens when Jesus returns.

There is not Scripture(s) that teach that any other human being existed in heaven with the Father before they were born in some other form.

Gods foreknowledge ... he knows who will be born and how their lives will play out.

He created the heavenly host first (angels - different kind of beings) created before mankind only they were in heaven, and we are told they don't pro-create.

Human Life began when God breathed into Adams nostrils ... it was the breath of God that animated his physical body and he became a living being (a person)

Man is a compound of matter and spirit. The matter is flesh, made of the soil of the earth; the spirit is the life-giving breath of God in him. At death the body turns back into soil, and the spirit (breath) returns to God, who gave it

Every breath we take is dependent upon God.

apostols recognized those who were with Christ, cause they came back to Kingdom of Heaven and thus memory revived

There is NOTHING that says this ... purely speculation.

 

[eleos1954]

Can you please prove the first concept about "no pre existence"
God knows everything, but what is it about here?
Nobody "asks" to come here. How can you know that? Only because you don't remember? But it only proves my idea about oblivion.
About Transfiguration, apostols recognized those who were with Christ, cause they came back to Kingdom of Heaven and thus memory revived

I understand it does not describe HOW the apostles knew ... the fact is they knew ... everything else is speculative ....

Humans were not given life until God created Adam and Adam was formed out of the dust of the earth .... God breathed into his nostrils and
Adam became alive (at that time-gave his lifeless body functionality) then He created Eve using the rib of Adam and that was the beginning of the human race. There is nothing in the creation account to suggest we existed before Adam and Eve.

We are told how we came into being .... one can believe it .... or not. This idea is pre-mortality .... we were created subject to death (mortal) but death did not become a reality until Adam and Eve sinned. They ate from the tree of life and that is what gave them the possibility to live for eternity .... that tree was guarded and then removed after they sinned .... we will once again be given access to this tree and eat from it and it will sustain our life for eternity thus immortality.

I think the morman relegion teaches pre-mortality (spirt children).

Consider the following:

• “Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.” (Genesis 2:7)
• “When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image.” (Genesis 5:3)
• “The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.” (Job 33:4)

When John the Baptist saw Jesus, he declared, “This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me’” (John 1:30). John was conceived six months before Jesus (Luke 1:26, 36), yet he indicated that Jesus existed before he did. If John had pre-existed, he could not have made that claim.

Saying one "does not remember" is speculative.

It does not say their "memories were revived" ... that idea is speculative.

Believe what you want .... I do not believe in any kind of pre-existence. We were made human and will remain that way.

 

[friend of]

The preexistance thing is from Mormonism. It's found nowhere in the 66 books for the bible

 

[Михаил Сотник]

I understand it does not describe HOW the apostles knew ... the fact is they knew ... everything else is speculative ....

Humans were not given life until God created Adam and Adam was formed out of the dust of the earth .... God breathed into his nostrils and
Adam became alive (at that time-gave his lifeless body functionality) then He created Eve using the rib of Adam and that was the beginning of the human race. There is nothing in the creation account to suggest we existed before Adam and Eve.

We are told how we came into being .... one can believe it .... or not. This idea is pre-mortality .... we were created subject to death (mortal) but death did not become a reality until Adam and Eve sinned. They ate from the tree of life and that is what gave them the possibility to live for eternity .... that tree was guarded and then removed after they sinned .... we will once again be given access to this tree and eat from it and it will sustain our life for eternity thus immortality.

I think the morman relegion teaches pre-mortality (spirt children).

Consider the following:

• “Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.” (Genesis 2:7)
• “When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image.” (Genesis 5:3)
• “The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.” (Job 33:4)

When John the Baptist saw Jesus, he declared, “This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me’” (John 1:30). John was conceived six months before Jesus (Luke 1:26, 36), yet he indicated that Jesus existed before he did. If John had pre-existed, he could not have made that claim.

Saying one "does not remember" is speculative.

It does not say their "memories were revived" ... that idea is speculative.

Believe what you want .... I do not believe in any kind of pre-existence. We were made human and will remain that way.

Agree, that many things can be understood as "speculative", but I would say about it :"
When John the Baptist saw Jesus, he declared, “This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me’” (John 1:30). John was conceived six months before Jesus (Luke 1:26, 36), yet he indicated that Jesus existed before he did. If John had pre-existed, he could not have made that claim."
John was not "John" before his incarnation. Meaning that the soul was sent to Earth (6 months before Christ), and after that became John the Baptist. Nobody "lived" before embodiment. The soul lived with God, nameless in Earth concept, but Named to God

 

[ViaCrucis]

Two things I'd argue:

1) We first must completely give up on the idea of the soul as a kind of Platonic ghost. There isn't a ghost floating around in my body; neither is my body some kind of physical house or, worse, prison that contains a "soul". This conglomeration of atoms which comprise my body are genuinely me, as is the mind which I have, and the bio-electrical chemistry going on within my brain. I am self-aware, I am alive, I am a living, breathing, thinking creature of matter. My soul is not the "real me" beneath a false veil of flesh--this flesh is me. My soul is me, I am alive, I am aware, I have feeling, and existence, I can respond to the world, I can even relate with the Creator of the universe. These are not two things which are unnaturally forced together now, which will be disolved at death; rather this is the reality of what we are as intended by God and death violently tears asunder body and soul--existence apart from the body is unnatural, which is why we preach the resurrection of the body and the restoration of all creation. The soul is more than biology, but it is also fully united to our biological life as living, breathing, animated creatures of the earth.

We are more than matter, but we are matter, and our matter matters.

2) The question of ensoulment is a long one throughout the history of Christianity, though the view which came to dominate and which is taught pretty consistently across denominational lines is creationism. Creationism, as understood in antiquity, is the idea that the soul is uniquely created by God. And secondly, the dominant view that is commonly believed is that this is at conception. That the existence of a distinct biological existence in the womb is the evidence, and proof, that there is a human soul in the womb. And it is this kind of "soulishness" of the body which underlines the common Christian understanding that, if there is a human soul in the womb, then we have a human person--not a mere bundle of nerves and undifferentiated cells, but a fully real human person with a real human existence.

I would, indeed, argue the position of conceptional ensoulment, or something very close. I wouldn't want to attempt to tie a particular moment of that conception to ensoulment; but for all intents and purposes conception is the origin of individuated human existence. And thus, the soul. To ground this theologiclaly and biblically, the Scriptures declare "I formed you in your mother's womb" and "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb."

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Agree, that many things can be understood as "speculative", but I would say about it :"
When John the Baptist saw Jesus, he declared, “This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me’” (John 1:30). John was conceived six months before Jesus (Luke 1:26, 36), yet he indicated that Jesus existed before he did. If John had pre-existed, he could not have made that claim."
John was not "John" before his incarnation. Meaning that the soul was sent to Earth (6 months before Christ), and after that became John the Baptist. Nobody "lived" before embodiment. The soul lived with God, nameless in Earth concept, but Named to God

John never incarnated.

But Jesus, who is the Eternal Logos, only-begotten Son of the Father, did incarnate within the womb of the Virgin Mary. In His Incarnation He, becoming human, meant He then had a human soul. In other words, Jesus' soul didn't pre-exist His Incarnation anymore than His flesh did. The Incarnation means the complete and perfect union of the Divine Hypostasis of the Son with human nature, thus Jesus Christ is God and man, with neither confusion nor separation, in His one undivided Person.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

The preexistance thing is from Mormonism. It's found nowhere in the 66 books for the bible

It predates Mormonism, but it is most famously known as a Mormon thing. In antiquity it was the common belief of Platonists. Platonic philosophy can get, for lack of a better term, weird. Plato was interested in the idea of how we can know what we know about the world--that's the philosophical question he wants to answer. Plato thus argued that there was an idealized world wheren the Ideas of things--the idealized and perfect form, it's very soul and existence, is--so a tree's "tree-ness" is understood by an observer (like you or me) because there is an idealized, perfect "Tree" that exists somewhere, and the trees we see with our eyes are copies, imitations of that idealized "Tree".

The material universe, the universe in which we think,act, and observe in which phenomena happens is actually a kind of "fall", this world is inferior to that greater world, everything here is but an imitation, an imperfect imitation, of the real thing. And thus even human beings are, in a sense, trapped in bodies of flesh, with a soul that was originally in the Idealized world.

These ideas would influence a lot of different things, the various Gnostic sects of antiquity are often very deeply indebted to the ideas of Plato; on the other hand the Neo-Platonist philosophers who showed up around the 3rd century thought the Gnostics were basically butchering Plato.

Neo-Platonism even had influences on orthodox, mainstream Christianity--but with a lot of limits. It is more accurate to say that Christian thinkers borrowed philosophy when it was beneficial, but never fully embraced those philosophers. But pre-existence was firmly rejected and denied as heretical in the 6th century--though outside of Origen who speculated on it as but a possibility, and the later Hyper-Originsts who abused Origen's writings to suit their tastes (these were condemned as heretics) who seem to have argued it as fact, it was never taken very seriously among Christians, both East and West.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Михаил Сотник]

Two things I'd argue:

1) We first must completely give up on the idea of the soul as a kind of Platonic ghost. There isn't a ghost floating around in my body; neither is my body some kind of physical house or, worse, prison that contains a "soul". This conglomeration of atoms which comprise my body are genuinely me, as is the mind which I have, and the bio-electrical chemistry going on within my brain. I am self-aware, I am alive, I am a living, breathing, thinking creature of matter. My soul is not the "real me" beneath a false veil of flesh--this flesh is me. My soul is me, I am alive, I am aware, I have feeling, and existence, I can respond to the world, I can even relate with the Creator of the universe. These are not two things which are unnaturally forced together now, which will be disolved at death; rather this is the reality of what we are as intended by God and death violently tears asunder body and soul--existence apart from the body is unnatural, which is why we preach the resurrection of the body and the restoration of all creation. The soul is more than biology, but it is also fully united to our biological life as living, breathing, animated creatures of the earth.

We are more than matter, but we are matter, and our matter matters.

2) The question of ensoulment is a long one throughout the history of Christianity, though the view which came to dominate and which is taught pretty consistently across denominational lines is creationism. Creationism, as understood in antiquity, is the idea that the soul is uniquely created by God. And secondly, the dominant view that is commonly believed is that this is at conception. That the existence of a distinct biological existence in the womb is the evidence, and proof, that there is a human soul in the womb. And it is this kind of "soulishness" of the body which underlines the common Christian understanding that, if there is a human soul in the womb, then we have a human person--not a mere bundle of nerves and undifferentiated cells, but a fully real human person with a real human existence.

I would, indeed, argue the position of conceptional ensoulment, or something very close. I wouldn't want to attempt to tie a particular moment of that conception to ensoulment; but for all intents and purposes conception is the origin of individuated human existence. And thus, the soul. To ground this theologiclaly and biblically, the Scriptures declare "I formed you in your mother's womb" and "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb."

-CryptoLutheran

As for the first paragraph of yours... You stated that YOU means soul and body together. But let's imagine that you (or anybody in the world) has lost your memory. Are you still YOU?! If you don't remember neither your name (Earth name), nor your family, nor profession and skills connected with it, and so on and so force... Are you the same YOU then?
Secondly you wrote :" These are not two things which are unnaturally forced together now, which will be disolved at death;" But death in fact tears apart soul and body. Moreover Jesus Christ himself stated that:"For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven".(Matthew 22:30) Have you ever seen angels in body or flash?

 

[eleos1954]

As for the first paragraph of yours... You stated that YOU means soul and body together. But let's imagine that you (or anybody in the world) has lost your memory. Are you still YOU?! If you don't remember neither your name (Earth name), nor your family, nor profession and skills connected with it, and so on and so force... Are you the same YOU then?
Secondly you wrote :" These are not two things which are unnaturally forced together now, which will be disolved at death;" But death in fact tears apart soul and body. Moreover Jesus Christ himself stated that:"For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven".(Matthew 22:30) Have you ever seen angels in body or flash?

The Bible says nothing about the pre-existence of "souls" ... this is a man-made idea with no basis in truth. The Bible makes it clear that every human being is a unique creation of God (Genesis 2:7; Zechariah 12:1; Jeremiah 1:5). Each unique human "soul" (person) begins at conception (Psalm 139:13–16; Isaiah 44:24)

as the angels in heaven ... don't mean we were or become physically like the angels .... we are human and will remain that way. Jesus is both God and man .... He will also remain that way. The text says we won't marry in heaven (like the angels) and we shouldn't read anything else into it.

 

[BeyondET]

Zinc spark

 

[Михаил Сотник]

The Bible says nothing about the pre-existence of "souls" ... this is a man-made idea with no basis in truth. The Bible makes it clear that every human being is a unique creation of God (Genesis 2:7; Zechariah 12:1; Jeremiah 1:5). Each unique human "soul" (person) begins at conception (Psalm 139:13–16; Isaiah 44:24)

as the angels in heaven ... don't mean we were or become physically like the angels .... we are human and will remain that way. Jesus is both God and man .... He will also remain that way. The text says we won't marry in heaven (like the angels) and we shouldn't read anything else into it.

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. (Jer.1:5) Thus means, that God KNEW the person before creation of a living being. The rest of quotations are about creation of man, but not soul.
As for the second paragraph: Your's answer is very common for most of the Christians. Meaning, you have emphasised one part of the quoted line "we won't marry in heaven (like the angels)", but completely ignored another part of this line, "...but ARE as the angels of God". It's SO notorious for people who read the Bible to say "I like this part, so I will follow it accurately! But at the same time, I don't like another part, so i will not follow it, because it's some metaphor or allegory!"

 

[eleos1954]

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. (Jer.1:5) Thus means, that God KNEW the person before creation of a living being. The rest of quotations are about creation of man, but not soul.
As for the second paragraph: Your's answer is very common for most of the Christians. Meaning, you have emphasised one part of the quoted line "we won't marry in heaven (like the angels)", but completely ignored another part of this line, "...but ARE as the angels of God". It's SO notorious for people who read the Bible to say "I like this part, so I will follow it accurately! But at the same time, I don't like another part, so i will not follow it, because it's some metaphor or allegory!"

No ... does not mean there was a person before being born .... God knows the future ... so he knows how a persons life will play out.

The passage about angels being talked about is in relation to marriage .... in that regard Jesus says there will be no marriage in heaven.

 

[Михаил Сотник]

No ... does not mean there was a person before being born .... God knows the future ... so he knows how a persons life will play out.

The passage about angels being talked about is in relation to marriage .... in that regard Jesus says there will be no marriage in heaven.

These are the following lines of the same Gospel: "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." It was not about only marriage.