Abortion and the death penalty

[Ana the Ist]

It bugs me when people just look at these two questions philosophically without considering the facts of their practical applications. Sure, you might think that the death penalty is morally acceptable, but leaving it at that doesn't address the fact that it costs more tax dollars than imprisoning them for life, or that racial biases are clearly still at play in convictions, for example. You might think that abortion is wrong, but what about countries with high rates of child marriage? And how do you plan to ensure that women who need abortions for medical reasons are able to get through all the red tape in time?

It's important to actually learn about what these things look like in the world. So that's what bugs me about statements like this one:

These issues just aren't that simple.

You know, I've seen the "death penalty costs more than life imprisonment" statement enough times that I think there must be something to it....but for the life of me I can never figure out how it works. Does anyone actually know? Is it all of the appeals for a death row inmate that end up costing all the money? Wouldn't this depend on a bunch of factors like if the DR inmate waives his appeals, or if the lifer participates in some for profit license plate stamping?

I guess I'm just saying I'd like to see the numbers.

 

[Cearbhall]

Does anyone actually know? Is it all of the appeals for a death row inmate that end up costing all the money?

Oh, yes. It's well-documented that it's a very expensive legal process. There's an extreme burden of proof for putting someone to death in the US. Here are some numbers.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Pro-fetus? That's pro-life. Social system? Forty-six percent (46%) of Americans are on welfare, in Section 8 housing, all supported by the 54% who are not. Single mothers? With the exception of rural areas, physical, mental, emotional and financial support are provided across the USA. At taxpayer expense.

Point the finger at deadbeat dads and those who abandon their wives and girlfriends. Who comes along to "support" the single mother? Another deadbeat "dad" who is a child-abandoner. And the beat goes on.

How do we fix it? __________________________________.

Raise wages across the board so men feel like they can afford to raise a child.

That would be one way. Another would be to end corporate welfare and use a fraction of that money to double welfare for single mothers.

 

[Winken]

You know, I've seen the "death penalty costs more than life imprisonment" statement enough times that I think there must be something to it....but for the life of me I can never figure out how it works. Does anyone actually know? Is it all of the appeals for a death row inmate that end up costing all the money? Wouldn't this depend on a bunch of factors like if the DR inmate waives his appeals, or if the lifer participates in some for profit license plate stamping?

I guess I'm just saying I'd like to see the numbers.

http://deathpenalty.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=001000

 

[Winken]

Raise wages across the board so men feel like they can afford to raise a child.

That would be one way. Another would be to end corporate welfare and use a fraction of that money to double welfare for single mothers.

The employer would increase prices across the board. Groceries, automobiles, dining out, gasoline ..... you name it.

Define "corporate welfare." Would the $$$$ be transferred to a government-run operation? God forbid....

 

[Ana the Ist]

The employer would increase prices across the board. Groceries, automobiles, dining out, gasoline ..... you name it.

Define "corporate welfare." Would the $$$$ be transferred to a government-run operation? God forbid....

Well there's several kinds of corporate welfare....but I believe subsidies would be the biggest one.

Why would the government using that money to help people be worse than you propping up a failing (or even worse, successful) business? The amount of money you hand out to big business is far greater than the money you give to the sick, uneducated, and poor.

Also prices wouldn't change significantly...not unless supply and demand changed as well.

 

[asherahSamaria]

You're asking the wrong question. You should be asking why women are getting pregnant with unwanted babies? As soon as you figure that out you can then solve the problem of abortion and unwanted babies that get neglected and then cause problems later on in society and ultimately get the death penalty for their crimes. Look at the source of the problem first not the result.

However, as soon as you figure out the problem behind why women get pregnant with unwanted babies you'll have a new problem that came before that problem that you'll have to look at the source of and so on and so forth. Don't stop trying to solve problems though because eventually you'll get the real source of all problems, there you'll find the truth

How a woman got pregnant is really immaterial to this discussion. The question is how do some people rationalize that it's morally wrong to accept or allow an abortion while it's morally fine to kill someone through the death penalty process

 

[GrimKingGrim]

I'm pro-choice, anti death penalty.

Pro-Choice because women deserve options and it's none of my business to tell a woman what to do with their body because of my "feelings" and that goes for any male.

And anti-DP Even though it can feel warranted it does nothing to undo what was done to deserve it.

 

[asherahSamaria]

It's amazing to see that all four options are pretty evenly spread so far (admittedly low numbers)

 

[DogmaHunter]

It's amazing to see that all four options are pretty evenly spread so far (admittedly low numbers)

It would be interesting to see the results of the same poll addressed to only non-believers...

 

[asherahSamaria]

It would be interesting to see the results of the same poll addressed to only non-believers...

I suspect it would be more "pro-choice", hard to predict the death penalty side though, probably more anti but hard to call - not all non believers have altruistic humanist views.

 

[DogmaHunter]

I suspect it would be more "pro-choice", hard to predict the death penalty side though, probably more anti but hard to call - not all non believers have altruistic humanist views.

I expect pretty much the same thing.

Pretty even spread, but as good as all on the pro-choice side.

 

[Chriliman]

How a woman got pregnant is really immaterial to this discussion. The question is how do some people rationalize that it's morally wrong to accept or allow an abortion while it's morally fine to kill someone through the death penalty process

Ask yourself how you would solve the problem of abortions and unwanted babies.

For me the answer is to figure out why women are getting pregnant without wanting to. If we don't have a need for abortions then we also don't have unwanted and neglected children and if we don't have unwanted and neglected children then we don't have those children growing up to be criminals potentially commiting a crime worthy of the death penalty.

Can you see how far reasonable thinking can get you? Don't focus on the result of the problem focus on the source. If you focus on the result you'll never solve the source.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Ask yourself how you would solve the problem of abortions and unwanted babies.

To do that, I'ld have to see a problem with it to begin with.
I don't. If a woman gets pregnant against her will for example, I see no problem at all with terminating the pregnancy.

The people who have a problem with it are the people that are complaining about it.

For me the answer is to figure out why women are getting pregnant without wanting to.

Really? You can't figure out how such a thing is possible? Then you must not have thought about it for longer then 2 seconds. And even that is throwing you a bone. I don't even need to think for a single second to come up with a scenario where a woman gets pregnant without wanting to.

If we don't have a need for abortions then we also don't have unwanted and neglected children

Que?
Unwanted pregnancies are not the only reason to have abortions...
There's also the medical reason. Severely deformed fetus for example.

and if we don't have unwanted and neglected children then we don't have those children growing up to be criminals potentially commiting a crime worthy of the death penalty.

Wut?

You think only "unwanted and neglected" children grow up to be criminals?
Just in what kind of fantasy world do you live?

Can you see how far reasonable thinking can get you?

What you have shown here is the exact opposite of "reasonable thinking".
What you have shown here is rather extremely closed minded, black and white thinking with a complete lack of understanding of how things work in real life.

Don't focus on the result of the problem focus on the source. If you focus on the result you'll never solve the source.

To do that, you'ld actually have to be honest about the problems - which you clearly failed to do here...

 

[Chriliman]

To do that, I'ld have to see a problem with it to begin with.
I don't. If a woman gets pregnant against her will for example, I see no problem at all with terminating the pregnancy.

The people who have a problem with it are the people that are complaining about it.



Really? You can't figure out how such a thing is possible? Then you must not have thought about it for longer then 2 seconds. And even that is throwing you a bone. I don't even need to think for a single second to come up with a scenario where a woman gets pregnant without wanting to.




Que?
Unwanted pregnancies are not the only reason to have abortions...
There's also the medical reason. Severely deformed fetus for example.



Wut?

You think only "unwanted and neglected" children grow up to be criminals?
Just in what kind of fantasy world do you live?



What you have shown here is the exact opposite of "reasonable thinking".
What you have shown here is rather extremely closed minded, black and white thinking with a complete lack of understanding of how things work in real life.


To do that, you'ld actually have to be honest about the problems - which you clearly failed to do here...

If you don't see a problem with killing a human fetus then you shouldn't have a problem with the death penalty. Do you have a problem with the death penalty?

 

[bhsmte]

You're asking the wrong question. You should be asking why women are getting pregnant with unwanted babies? As soon as you figure that out you can then solve the problem of abortion and unwanted babies that get neglected and then cause problems later on in society and ultimately get the death penalty for their crimes. Look at the source of the problem first not the result.

However, as soon as you figure out the problem behind why women get pregnant with unwanted babies you'll have a new problem that came before that problem that you'll have to look at the source of and so on and so forth. Don't stop trying to solve problems though because eventually you'll get the real source of all problems, there you'll find the truth

They get pregnant because they have sex.

Humans have been known, to have sex.

 

[Chriliman]

They get pregnant because they have sex.

Humans have been known, to have sex.

Exactly, they fail to realize the implications of not having safe sex. Or maybe its that they fail to realize the benefits of waiting until marriage to have sex. This goes for both men and women. Men who take advantage of women have their own separate problems that need to be addressed as well. All the sudden its easy to tell that an innocent fetus had nothing to do with why it was conceived, it was all the result of a person making poor choices and not being willing to live with their poor choices and instead insisting they have the right to kill in order to keep them from having to live with their poor choices, except often times by killing a fetus they create even worse emotional problems for themselves because they realize they've made a very poor choice in taking the life of an innocent person.

See we have a major problem here that if ignored will cause even bigger problems. People are passionate about this! Justice will be served!

 

[Chriliman]

I'm pro good choices before conception. After conception you have no right to take life.

 

[bhsmte]

Exactly, they fail to realize the implications of not having safe sex. Or maybe its that they fail to realize the benefits of waiting until marriage to have sex. This goes for both men and women. Men who take advantage of women have their own separate problems that need to be addressed as well. All the sudden its easy to tell that an innocent fetus had nothing to do with why it was conceived, it was all the result of a person making poor choices and not being willing to live with their poor choices and instead insisting they have the right to kill in order to keep them from having to live with their poor choices, except often times by killing a fetus they create even worse emotional problems for themselves because they realize they've made a very poor choice in taking the life of an innocent person.

See we have a major problem here that if ignored will cause even bigger problems. People are passionate about this! Justice will be served!

Well, the problem is getting better, because abortions have been declining for some time, even though the population has been increasing.

 

[Chriliman]

Well, the problem is getting better, because abortions have been declining for some time, even though the population has been increasing.

I'm glad if thats true. It requires those who are passionate about this to step up and speak out and help in any way they can. Its the only way to solve the problem of abortion and unwanted babies.