A Serious Question About Moral Failure and Ministry

[imperfectchristian]

If Bentley had not been a prolific, nationally known minister...say a missions pastor or an executive pastor of a medium sized subarban church...and he had ministered faithfully for many years before hand...and had a moral failure (affair)...let's say it went on for a couple of months then he was confronted by friends, the sin was made known to the congregation, he admitted his wrong, ended the affair for good, asked for forgiveness and made restitution as best he could, reconciled with his wife. His wife fully forgave him and supported him he did not try to hide it in any future ministry...how long do you feel he should wait before he returned to ministry?

Please...I want some serious, thoughtful answers on this one. Don't be hasty and judgemental, but also be honest how you would feel about it and if you attended the church where this person was a pastor how you would feel about it.

If you found out your pastor had had a moral failure, how much time would have to have elapsed for you to feel comfortable with him as your pastor?

Would it make a difference if it was a different church? Why?

How long would be long enough?

When would you feel comfortable with them as a minister?

Do you think a moral failure makes someone unfit for ministry?

Do you think a moral failure in the past makes a person less capable to be a minister or does failure make them more compassionate and possibly a better person and minister for it?

 

[enoch son]

I like what Jesus said myself. "Who told you,that you were naked?" seems to me man still doesn't understand what God see. fig leaves is all man see's. Look out here comes another stone!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Deba]

If the minister has someone within his denomination with sufficient leadership skills and experience to work through the process with the fallen pastor and if the pastor submits to that discipline, then returning to the pulpit should not be a problem.

Otherwise no. Sounds like he was more sorry he got caught than heartbroken over the adultery.

 

[imperfectchristian]

If the minister has someone within his denomination with sufficient leadership skills and experience to work through the process with the fallen pastor and if the pastor submits to that discipline, then returning to the pulpit should not be a problem.

Otherwise no. Sounds like he was more sorry he got caught than heartbroken over the adultery.

Ok let's say he submits to the discipline...how long does the discipline last, when do you feel is it OK for him to return to the pulpit?

 

[probinson]

Excellent questions.

I heard a sermon by Danny Silk entitled "Unpunishable". The entire sermon is excellent, and he talks about a real life situation very similar to what you've described in your OP. I'll have to see if I can find the full audio, but take a look at this short 5-minute compilation of clips in the meantime;

YouTube - Are You Unpunishable?

 

[bsd31]

If Bentley had not been a prolific, nationally known minister...say a missions pastor or an executive pastor of a medium sized subarban church...and he had ministered faithfully for many years before hand...and had a moral failure (affair)...let's say it went on for a couple of months then he was confronted by friends, the sin was made known to the congregation, he admitted his wrong, ended the affair for good, asked for forgiveness and made restitution as best he could, reconciled with his wife. His wife fully forgave him and supported him he did not try to hide it in any future ministry...how long do you feel he should wait before he returned to ministry?

Please...I want some serious, thoughtful answers on this one. Don't be hasty and judgemental, but also be honest how you would feel about it and if you attended the church where this person was a pastor how you would feel about it.

Ok...

If you found out your pastor had had a moral failure, how much time would have to have elapsed for you to feel comfortable with him as your pastor?

If I were without moral failures on a daily basis I could probably give a set number of days. But since Christ already atoned for all of my moral failures, and presumably the same is true of any saved person including pastors I'd have to say however long it took him to confess to God and repent

Would it make a difference if it was a different church? Why?

A man of God is a man of God without regard to what church he shepherds.

How long would be long enough?

However long it takes him to confess and repent.

When would you feel comfortable with them as a minister?

See above.

Do you think a moral failure makes someone unfit for ministry?

No and if anyone actually believes this to be true then they should consider that there would never be any ministry if moral failure made anyone unfit.

Do you think a moral failure in the past makes a person less capable to be a minister or does failure make them more compassionate and possibly a better person and minister for it?

I believe a moral failure that someone is able to overcome makes them a better minister for that particular issue. For example someone who has overcome alcoholism is a better minister to alcoholics than a teetotaler.

 

[Deba]

Ok let's say he submits to the discipline...how long does the discipline last, when do you feel is it OK for him to return to the pulpit?

That would have to be determined by the leadership. If based only on MY feelings it would be never. My trust and confidence of his ability to return to the pulpit would be in the leadership over him.

 

[imperfectchristian]

Excellent questions.

I heard a sermon by Danny Silk entitled "Unpunishable". The entire sermon is excellent, and he talks about a real life situation very similar to what you've described in your OP. I'll have to see if I can find the full audio, but take a look at this short 5-minute compilation of clips in the meantime;

YouTube - Are You Unpunishable?

WOW!

 

[JSGuitarist]

You know, given those circumstances, I could see the excitement in any minister's eyes about restoring their fallen brother or sister. At least I would be. I've never been in a position to make that kind of decision.

I would probably say it depends. I would probably give a minimal amount of time that should be spent away from the pulpit.. say, nine months to a year. The reason being, I think that's just a reasonable amount of time for the fallen minister to push to make things right in his life, to reconcile and spend extra time with his family to make it right. For the sake of conservatism too, the leaders should have enough time to not only stand with him, but carefully weigh everything that they see happening. What you would probably also want to do is make sure to properly communicate with the congregation as well. There's going to be some resentment to the man and maybe even to his family, and so the leadership will need to work through those issues as well. Some will be perfectly fine and perfectly forgiving. For such circumstances, it's probably better to put him back in too late rather than too early. The end goal is that restoration has been done as well as possible, that the family is again functioning, and that he can be trusted with his position again. Of course, I wouldn't know how to properly evaluate that, because there is always going to be some hurt from it, even years afterwards... So I would hope that it's very Godly men who are doing it.

I would bring Todd Bentley through that process for the sake of his family, definitely, and I'd be overjoyed to see them restored!

Would I put him back on the pulpit? Well if it's full honesty you want, then adultery or none, I'd probably question whether or not he should even be up there just on his teachings alone. The adultery bugged me, but so did everything else.

 

[Faulty]

Excellent questions.

I heard a sermon by Danny Silk entitled "Unpunishable". The entire sermon is excellent, and he talks about a real life situation very similar to what you've described in your OP. I'll have to see if I can find the full audio, but take a look at this short 5-minute compilation of clips in the meantime;

YouTube - Are You Unpunishable?

About 40 seconds of good stuff in there.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

If Bentley had not been a prolific, nationally known minister...say a missions pastor or an executive pastor of a medium sized subarban church...and he had ministered faithfully for many years before hand...and had a moral failure (affair)...let's say it went on for a couple of months then he was confronted by friends, the sin was made known to the congregation, he admitted his wrong, ended the affair for good, asked for forgiveness and made restitution as best he could, reconciled with his wife. His wife fully forgave him and supported him he did not try to hide it in any future ministry...how long do you feel he should wait before he returned to ministry?

Please...I want some serious, thoughtful answers on this one. Don't be hasty and judgemental, but also be honest how you would feel about it and if you attended the church where this person was a pastor how you would feel about it.

If you found out your pastor had had a moral failure, how much time would have to have elapsed for you to feel comfortable with him as your pastor?

Would it make a difference if it was a different church? Why?

How long would be long enough?

When would you feel comfortable with them as a minister?

Do you think a moral failure makes someone unfit for ministry?

Do you think a moral failure in the past makes a person less capable to be a minister or does failure make them more compassionate and possibly a better person and minister for it?

I don't think any of us are capable of putting a time limit on God's restoration of another. However, I think that when one is too quick to jump back into the same setting and schedule that more than likely was what created the platform for that fall is a mistake. I think that one who is truly restored in their walk will proceed with great caution so as not to walk right back into the very same setting that lead to the downfall in the first place. All of us are ministers and falling down does not disqualify us from continuing to be used by God...it's just that when there is a "push" by the human, to get back into that "limelight" ministry, for me anyway, that is a sign that they are probably not really ready yet. That is just my opinion though.

 

[Deba]

And it's more than the adultery. Lying, deceiving, the lack of concern for others, the betrayal of trust, contempt for holy vows, etc.

 

[nagwalk]

The bible exhorts us who are spiritual to restore those overtaken in a fault. All of the particulars will determine the type and length of discipline.

If however the offending pastor fails to submit to discipline and breaks the restoration and reconciliation process by going back too early then the bible calls him a bastard, or one without a father, and also calls the church to disassociate itself from him.

 

[jeolmstead]

5 minutes, 5 years, or 50….

It is only the law that makes blanket requirements. And, the man dutifully submitted to the law is doomed to repeat his failure. For his stumble is rooted there in the first place!

Restoration takes as much time as it takes, no less, no more.

Too many who apparently fell from grace were never “in grace” in the first place.

Their ministry is born out of their own bruised ego and their desire to heal their own wounded flesh (by flesh I mean sinful nature)

It is hard to be born again when you have never died in the first place.

Such a man may be better after his fall if his fall brings him to the place where he dies to self and lives anew in Christ.

The evidence of this transformation is apparent.

Also apparent are those who are only sorry they got caught and are now only seeking to return to the “flesh” peddling they were doing before.

In a sense they are restored to their former glory, since, that glory was their own in the first place.

No worries however, as flesh sells, even religious flesh, and people will line up to get a share. Anything is better for the flesh than death

John O.

 

[Simon Peter]

To answer the OP regarding Bentley. I would say he should never be restored to ministry, and here is why:


6 An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.
7 Since an overseer is entrusted with God's work, he must be blameless--not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain.
8 Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined.
9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.
10 For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers…
Titus 1:6-10 NIV

...


I watched the unpunishable video. The main point appears to be summed up when he said:

“This would be a good thing to unlearn, this would be a good thing to break our agreements with: that those who sin need to be punished.”

This is a very misleading statement. Mostly because it suggests that the issue is one of ‘sin and punishment’. The issue is not about punishment, it’s about church discipline.

What do the scriptures say about discipline in the church:


1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife.
2 And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this?
1 Corinthians 5:1-2 NIV

9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people
10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.
11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."
1 Corinthians 5:9-13 NIV

6 In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching you received from us.
2 Thessalonians 3:6 NIV

14 If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of him. Do not associate with him, in order that he may feel ashamed.
2 Thessalonians 3:14 NIV

20 Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.
1 Timothy 5:20 NIV

10 For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group.
11 They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach--and that for the sake of dishonest gain.
Titus 1:10-11 NIV

10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him.
11 You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.
Titus 3:10-11 NIV

17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Matthew 18:17 NIV


peace,
Simon

 

[~RENEE~]

how long do you feel he should wait before he returned to ministry?

Personally that would be between him the congregation and those over him as well as God.

 

[probinson]

What do the scriptures say about discipline in the church:

Interestingly enough, you left out this excellent model for church discipline;

Galatians 6:1-5 (AMP)
BRETHREN, IF any person is overtaken in misconduct or sin of any sort, you who are spiritual [who are responsive to and controlled by the Spirit] should set him right and restore and reinstate him, without any sense of superiority and with all gentleness, keeping an attentive eye on yourself, lest you should be tempted also. Bear (endure, carry) one another's burdens and troublesome moral faults, and in this way fulfill and observe perfectly the law of Christ (the Messiah) and complete what is lacking [in your obedience to it]. For if any person thinks himself to be somebody [too important to condescend to shoulder another's load] when he is nobody [of superiority except in his own estimation], he deceives and deludes and cheats himself. But let every person carefully scrutinize and examine and test his own conduct and his own work. He can then have the personal satisfaction and joy of doing something commendable [in itself alone] without [resorting to] boastful comparison with his neighbor.
​

 

[probinson]

This is a very misleading statement. Mostly because it suggests that the issue is one of ‘sin and punishment’. The issue is not about punishment, it’s about church discipline.

Could you explain what you believe the difference is between discipline and punishment?

Also, along with the idea that sin should be disciplined, how do you think the parable of the Prodigal son fits in with that? The Prodigal son left home and lived a horribly sinful lifestyle. Yet upon his return home, his father neither disciplined nor punished him for 1) completely wasting his inheritance or 2) living a sinful lifestyle for months on end. In fact, he did just the opposite, and threw him a party. While it's true his brother was pretty upset about that, the father didn't seem to be too worried about it...

 

[KingZzub]

About 40 seconds of good stuff in there.

Probably about as much good stuff as your ipod then?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Could you explain what you believe the difference is between discipline and punishment?

Also, along with the idea that sin should be disciplined, how do you think the parable of the Prodigal son fits in with that? The Prodigal son left home and lived a horribly sinful lifestyle. Yet upon his return home, his father neither disciplined nor punished him for 1) completely wasting his inheritance or 2) living a sinful lifestyle for months on end. In fact, he did just the opposite, and threw him a party. While it's true his brother was pretty upset about that, the father didn't seem to be too worried about it...

Discipline is mercy in the age of grace while it still remains a choose. Punishment is judgement at the end of grace. (I believe grace still extends until the 1000 yr reign is complete, albeit not quite the same as at present since satan is chained for the duration)

The prodigal dispised his inheritance, but obtained mercy when he returned, less the inheritance. His limited inheritance was the discipline, he wouldn't have stopped if there was more to spend.