A Question on Evil

squint

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If a perfectly good and all powerful God does not need evil to justify his goodness, then why does evil exist in the first place?

God Is Great Enough to CAUSE and USE any given THING that exists. ALL THINGS that do exist, exist BY HIS WILL Alone. Were they not MEANT to exist then they wouldn't.

We presume as believers that there are PERFECTLY GOOD OR EVEN PERFECT intentions by and of God for the employment of any given thing.

That IS part of our HOPE.

We all HOPE that at some given point SIN, EVIL and DEATH will CEASE and will CEASE by Gods Removal of same.

s
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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Evil was not meant to exist. It is an antithesis. God can use it, but mostly he just points out the pitfalls.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God didn't DO anything... except point out the antithesis of what he designed as proper.

God could have said "in that day you will have to leave this place". It's the same effect. Leaving perfection only leads to one destination.

Forgive me...
 
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AmericanCatholic

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If an all powerful perfectly good and compassionate God does not require evil to justify himself, and men are created in the image of that same God, (a) why do men suffer from evil and (b) from where does evil originate?

Since an all-powerful perfectly good and compassionate God did not create evil, which would be an absurdity, evil is not a creation. Since evil is not a creation, it has no purpose inherent to itself. This is why it is sin and leads to death. Therefore, the only purpose of evil is that which is imposed upon it by God, illuminating his goodness. This is the only rational explanation for the existence of evil that does not contradict with the nature of an all-powerful perfectly good and compassionate God.
 
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squint

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Evil was not meant to exist. ..

Many believers put forth that notion...that EVIL just appeared all by itself right out of nowhere...as if God didn't have A SINGLE CLUE about it and could not have prevented it and didn't have ANY involvement with EVIL whatsoever. It just APPEARED of it's OWN VOLITION into Gods creation.

Evil just CREATED itself.

yeah...right...sure

Evil just appeared out of nowhere and God says, "WOW, how did that happen...?"

Then says God, "well, I'll just see how THAT pans out." "It sure ain't MY problem."
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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Many believers put forth that notion...that EVIL just appeared all by itself right out of nowhere...as if God didn't have A SINGLE CLUE about it and could not have prevented it and didn't have ANY involvement with EVIL whatsoever. It just APPEARED of it's OWN VOLITION into Gods creation.

Evil just CREATED itself.

yeah...right...sure

Evil just appeared out of nowhere and God says, "WOW, how did that happen...?"

Then says God, "well, I'll just see how THAT pans out." "It sure ain't MY problem."


And... you recognize that as incorrect. There was and is "no suprise" on God's part. His creation encompasses even the "attempts by his created" to undo creation.

God is bigger than all that. The link in post #24 will answer all of that, and does so very directly.

Forgive me...
 
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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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And... you recognize that as incorrect. There was and is "no suprise" on God's part. His creation encompasses even the "attempts by his created" to undo creation.

God is bigger than all that.

Forgive me...
:thumbsup:

Isaiah 43:19 Behold Me! doing a New-thing/02319 chadash. Now it/she is sprouting. Not ye are knowing it/her? Indeed placing in a wilderness a Way, in desolation Rivers.

2 Corin 5:17 So that if any in Christ, a New Creation, the ancient-things/arcaia <744> pass-away/parhlqen <3928> (5627).
Behold! has-become/gegonen <1096> (5754) New the all-things

Revelation 21:1 And I perceived a-Heaven, New, and a-Land, New, for the first heaven and the first land pass-away/parhlqen <3928> (5627)......
6 And He said to me:" it-has-become/gegonen <1096> (5754). I Am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end
 
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squint

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And... you recognize that as incorrect. There was and is "no suprise" on God's part. His creation encompasses even the "attempts by his created" to undo creation.

Actually what you present is that EVIL was NOT part of Gods Plan whatsoever. IT 'created' itself and has NO LINK to the FIRST CAUSE/ Creator....whatsoever.

which view I find rather ridiculous. First Cause is a primary understanding of believers.

God did not exempt Himself from anything in creation as FIRST CAUSE one way or another. As FIRST CAUSE He IS one way or another linked to EVERYTHING. We can view any matter and backsource it to FIRST CAUSE in some way.
 
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visionary

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If God is perfectly good and created evil, is evil good? If evil is good, then does evil even exist?
Everything was good until iniquity was found in Lucifer. Totally unknown and foreign to the world that God created, God's creations had no idea what evil was, so God had to allow it to reach maturity so that everyone could understand why it must be irradicated. God is just.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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Actually what you present is that EVIL was NOT part of Gods Plan whatsoever. IT 'created' itself and has NO LINK to the FIRST CAUSE/ Creator....whatsoever.

which view I find rather ridiculous. First Cause is a primary understanding of believers.

God did not exempt Himself from anything in creation as FIRST CAUSE one way or another. As FIRST CAUSE He IS one way or another linked to EVERYTHING. We can view any matter and backsource it to FIRST CAUSE in some way.

Incorrect. The plan was fully realized before ever being put into play.

Everything that will happen, is fully known to God.

God is not restricted by time... It is his creation.

Forgive me...
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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Everything was good until iniquity was found in Lucifer. Totally unknown and foreign to the world that God created, God's creations had no idea what evil was, so God had to allow it to reach maturity so that everyone could understand why it must be irradicated. God is just.

Lucifer is God's creation too.

Forgive me...
 
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squint

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Incorrect. The plan was fully realized before ever being put into play.

The 'plan' obviously came with the 'side effect.'
Everything that will happen, is fully known to God.

But not 'caused?'

There is no logical isolation for God available on this matter. IF anything comes about it comes about via First Cause. Were there no creation for evil (or any other thing) to have come about, it wouldn't have come about to begin with.

God is not restricted by time... It is his creation.

Except for the 'evil' part? yeah, sure.

God says "I am going to create" everything GOOD, but then EVIL is going to pop up ALL BY ITS LONESOME...and "I" of course didn't have ANYTHING to do with 'that.' Nope, not 'MY' fault.
 
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visionary

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Lucifer is God's creation too.

Forgive me...
We are dealing with where iniquity started.. and it was found in Lucifer. It was unknown in the Kingdom of Heaven until it was found in Lucifer. Yes, Lucifer is God's creation and so are we, but Lucifer without reason conceived and gave birth to iniquity. We are now awash in it.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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We are dealing with where iniquity started.. and it was found in Lucifer. It was unknown in the Kingdom of Heaven until it was found in Lucifer. Yes, Lucifer is God's creation and so are we, but Lucifer without reason conceived and gave birth to iniquity. We are now awash in it.
:angel:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7286527/
Isaiah 14:12 Lucifer translation
 
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squint

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Let's talk again after you have had a chance to read St. Athanasius on post #24.

Just read the first chapter.


Forgive me...

I've read just about every tretise there is from various groups that are used to isolate, extract and remove FIRST CAUSE from EVIL.

and quite honestly NONE of those explanations are logically credible. You may 'choose' to believe that God is not linked in any way whatsoever to EVIL...I just can't logically 'get there.'

The testimony of the scriptures are true:

Colossians 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him

There are 'no exceptions' available from 'all things.'

Evil is presented as 'a power.' As a 'power' it falls under Gods creation.

Habakkuk 2:9
Woe to him that coveteth an evil covetousness to his house, that he may set his nest on high, that he may be delivered from the power of evil!

Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

There is NO logical way to EXTRACT any 'thing' from 'ALL' things. Even the IMAGINATION that can TRY such a THING is still a 'creation' of 'all' things.

enjoy!

squint
 
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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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By all means demonstrate via 'logic' how you can remove any THING from the term 'ALL' things.

Such attempts are simply foolish and irrational.
What about Luke 21:22 :)

Luke 21:22 That Days of vengeance these are, of the to be filled all the having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772).

Revelation 1:3 Happy the one reading and the ones hearing the Words of this the Prophecy and keepings in it having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772), for the Time NIGH/egguV <1451>.
 
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(1)
In our former book we dealt fully enough with a few of the chief points about the heathen worship of idols, and how those false fears originally arose.

We also, by God's grace, briey indicated that the Word of the Father is Himself divine, that all things that are owe their being to His will and power, and that it is through Him that the Father gives order to creation, by Him that all things are moved, and through Him that they receive their being. Now, Macarius, true lover of Christ, we must take a step further in the faith of our holy religion, and consider also the Word's becoming Man and His divine Appearing in our midst.

That mystery the Jews traduce, the Greeks deride, but we adore; and your own love and devotion to the Word also will be the greater, because in His Manhood He seems so little worth. For it is a fact that the more unbelievers pour scorn on Him, so much the more does He make His Godhead evident. The things which they, as men, rule out as impossible, He plainly shows to be possible; that which they deride as unfitting, His goodness makes most fit; and things which these wiseacres laugh at as "human" He by His inherent might declares divine. Thusby what seems His utter poverty and weakness on the cross He overturns the pomp and parade of idols, and quietly and hiddenly wins over the mockers and
unbelievers to recognize Him as God.

Now in dealing with these matters it is necessary first to recall what has
already been said. You must understand why it is that the Word of the Father, so great and so high, has been made manifest in bodily form. He has not assumed a body as proper to His own nature, far from it, for as the Word He is without body. He has been manifested in a human body for this reason only, out of the love and goodness of His Father, for the salvation of us men.

We will begin, then, with the creation of the world and with God its Maker, for the first fact that you must grasp is this:

the renewal of creation has been wrought by the Self-same Word Who made it in the beginning. There' is thus no inconsistency between creation and salvation for the One Father has employed the same Agent for both works, effecting the salvation of the world through the same Word Who made it in the beginning.


continued on next post...

Forgive me...​


 
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