A Question About Signs and Wonders

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Are you referring to a minister who asks someone that he teaches the WORD to stand upright on their feet?

And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked: 9The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, 10Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.
Acts 14:8

Paul was an Apostle of Christ. Healing was an integral part of his Gospel preaching. None of the modern "healing" ministries are Apostles of Christ, therefore they don't have that facility as part of their preaching, even though they think they have.

I would love to see a medical report that validates a modern healing evangelist doing the same thing that Paul did. I won't be holding my breath.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

1 Cor 9:2 If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you, for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. NIV Even though I may not be an apostle to ...

Even then people argued about who was and was not an apostle. The proof of an apostle is not only that they are sent (apostle just means sent one - ambassador - representative) but also the ones they care for. The proof, or fruit of an apostle is the sheep they care for love one another, producing community, the church. With no apostles there is no church. Paul called himself an apostle, and he was not self appointed.

Apostolic ministry is for the service of the church to be built up in love. Not church buildings, but a living demonstration of those who love one another that the world would know (John 13:34-35 and John 17:21-13).

All okay in theory, but in these days it is not working out in practice. There are no present day apostles performing the same ministry as the First Century ones.

 

[Bobber]

Paul was an Apostle of Christ. Healing was an integral part of his Gospel preaching.

Sorry PC but Healing was not just an integral part of HIS gospel preaching. It's to be a part of all of our gospel preaching and you have NO scripture whatever to say otherwise.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Sorry PC but Healing was not just an integral part of HIS gospel preaching. It's to be a part of all of our gospel preaching and you have NO scripture whatever to say otherwise.

Where is the Scriptural support for that?

 

[sparow]

The reality is that in these days signs, wonders. and miracles are just not happening in spite of all the speech making, promises, and motivational talk.

Your statement is confused, there are false prophets who themselves are signs and wonders, fulfillers of prophesy. I read book about thirty-five years ago, a husband-and-wife team had a healing ministry, for twenty years they had moved from Pentecostal church to Pentecostal church healing, then retired and wrote the book. In the book they revealed that they did not believe they had every healed anyone, yet they believed they had done a good work.

 

[sparow]

I have no idea. However, when I see Benny Hinn, Todd White, Todd Bentley, Kenneth Copeland, or Bill Johnson provide copies of three medical certificates validating healing of major medical conditions, with before and after Xrays, and doctors' declaration that the healing did not come about by medical intervention, but in his opinion it was a miracle, he believed to have happened as the result of prayer, then I will concede that God does heal through the ministries of these big name fellas.

I am familiar with Hinn and Copeland, I would be surprised if they believed what they preach.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I am familiar with Hinn and Copeland, I would be surprised if they believed what they preach.

They will encourage their listeners to believe as long as the money rolls in.

 

[sparow]

They will encourage their listeners to believe as long as the money rolls in.

Yes, but this is what it is all about, sorting sheep from goats; the greater false prophets have little to do with what we call religion, they are called politicians. The great and terrible day of the Lord is a whole world thing.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Just preach the gospel. Let them know us by our fruits of the Spirit.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Paul said these ministry gifts will continue until the church comes into it's fullness:

Ephesians 4:11-16 KJV
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

If these things have not been accomplished, then those miracles have not ceased.

 

[Guojing]

Paul said these ministry gifts will continue until the church comes into it's fullness:

Ephesians 4:11-16 KJV
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

If these things have not been accomplished, then those miracles have not ceased.

Gave is in the past tense

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Just preach the gospel. Let them know us by our fruits of the Spirit.

The trouble is that the signs and wonders folk are preaching the gospel of "me", where "I" can use faith as a force, and be my own god, guaranteeing my own prosperity and healing. They don't want to hear of a Jesus who made Himself of no reputation and became a servant of all, and then died on a criminal's cross to bear the penalty for our sins. They want to have a "holy spirit" who gives them experiences and manifestations where they fall down, jerk, shake, laugh uncontrollably and stagger around like drunks. These are the signs and wonders they support, while genuinely sick and disabled people are ignored and miss out by not even be invited up on the stage for direct prayer by the "big" man, who knows he hasn't the power to heal them anyway.

But there are video clips where faithful pastors have gone to those meetings and tried to remind people to trust in the finished work of Jesus on the Cross, and have been accused of having a demon and frog marched out of the meetings by security.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Gave is in the past tense

Instead of going forward to maturity in Christ, the Church has fallen backwards to a state where man is controlling everything, making the ministries non existent. And the worst is yet to come, because there will be such a falling away that when Jesus comes, shall He find faith on the earth? The obvious answer to that is that He won't.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Paul said these ministry gifts will continue until the church comes into it's fullness:

Ephesians 4:11-16 KJV
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

If these things have not been accomplished, then those miracles have not ceased.

The reality is that the Church has backslidden so much that the Word of God has been made of no effect through the Church's traditions and man controlled programmes. Although this passage of Scripture is true, it has no effect on our apostate, man controlled churches. This is why we don't see the practical outworking of what this passage is telling us.

 

[ARBITER01]

And the worst is yet to come, because there will be such a falling away that when Jesus comes, shall He find faith on the earth? The obvious answer to that is that He won't.

Lol, you're funny Oscarr.

You really have no idea what GOD will do through the right person(s), but go ahead and make your wild predictive declarations, if you must.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Lol, you're funny Oscarr.

You really have no idea what GOD will do through the right person(s), but go ahead and make your wild predictive declarations, if you must.

I'm just repeating what Jesus said about a general falling away from the faith before He comes. Of course there is going to be a great revival of religion led by a very charismatic person along with signs and wonders. The Bible talks about that as well, but the revival might not what you expect it to be, neither will the person leading it, and the Bible speaks about the nature of the signs and wonders associated with it. Many people will accept this revival as genuine, even many of the very elect.

 

[ARBITER01]

I'm just repeating what Jesus said about a general falling away from the faith before He comes. Of course there is going to be a great revival of religion led by a very charismatic person along with signs and wonders. The Bible talks about that as well, but the revival might not what you expect it to be, neither will the person leading it, and the Bible speaks about the nature of the signs and wonders associated with it. Many people will accept this revival as genuine, even many of the very elect.

I don't dismiss things so easily.

GOD is never down for the count, never. He always has backup plans for backup plans. I don't think for one minute that we will never see anymore Wigglesworths or Etters, in fact, I think GOD is raising some up right now.