A Knowing-Hope!

[WordSword]

There is a hopeful-hope, which does not involve certainties but possibilities or even probabilities. Then there is a knowing-Hope, which involves only certainties; and such is Christianity, within which all is certain and permanent. Otherwise there would be nothing on which to truly depend!

There is no false Christianity, no false faith—just false professors claiming such. The lack of spiritual growth in the “image of Christ” (Ro 8:29; 2Co 3:18; Eph 4:15) within Christendom within the last century or so is due to inadequate understanding concerning the permanency of salvation, which contains “all things that pertain unto life and godliness” (2Pe 1:3).

Sufficient growth in Christ cannot begin admitting in increasing scales until believers come to the understanding that eternal life means forever: nor would One who is omniscient give such to one He knows is insincere when asking for it, because it cannot be canceled (“irrevocable” - Rom 11:29). You can be certain that you have eternal life (1Jo 5:13). The Spirit of the Father and of the Son assures you (Ro 8:16); you are “kept from evil (” 2Thes 3:3; 2Ti 4:18) and “kept from falling” (Jud 1:24; Rom 16:25).

It’s highly predictable and expected to realize that the most significant teachings related to spiritual growth are the ones most misunderstood; and the Enemy has well seen to it! Ignorance of truth is the result of not sincerely seeking it. The more truth is sought, the more it is found (“seek, and ye shall find” - Mat 7:7), conversely, the less truth is found, the less it is sought.

 

[fhansen]

There is a hopeful-hope, which does not involve certainties but possibilities or even probabilities. Then there is a knowing-Hope, which involves only certainties; and such is Christianity, within which all is certain and permanent. Otherwise there would be nothing on which to truly depend!

There is no false Christianity, no false faith—just false professors claiming such. The lack of spiritual growth in the “image of Christ” (Ro 8:29; 2Co 3:18; Eph 4:15) within Christendom within the last century or so is due to inadequate understanding concerning the permanency of salvation, which contains “all things that pertain unto life and godliness” (2Pe 1:3).

Sufficient growth in Christ cannot begin admitting in increasing scales until believers come to the understanding that eternal life means forever: nor would One who is omniscient give such to one He knows is insincere when asking for it, because it cannot be canceled (“irrevocable” - Rom 11:29). You can be certain that you have eternal life (1Jo 5:13). The Spirit of the Father and of the Son assures you (Ro 8:16); you are “kept from evil (” 2Thes 3:3; 2Ti 4:18) and “kept from falling” (Jud 1:24; Rom 16:25).

It’s highly predictable and expected to realize that the most significant teachings related to spiritual growth are the ones most misunderstood; and the Enemy has well seen to it! Ignorance of truth is the result of not sincerely seeking it. The more truth is sought, the more it is found (“seek, and ye shall find” - Mat 7:7), conversely, the less truth is found, the less it is sought.

Yes, as historically understood in Christianity, the virtue of hope is more than wishful thinking but is more akin to trust and confidence.

However, one can also be over-confident to the point of presumption. While God is infinitely trustworthy, good, and true, we’re still the wildcard in it all: limited, weak, sinful at times, still able to turn back away from God, living by the flesh rather than the Spirit, failing to persevere even with the gifts He’s given. At the end of the day He’ll be the judge of how we did, with the grace received-and then we’ll know our eternal destinies with perfect certainty.

 

[WordSword]

Yes, as historically understood in Christianity, the virtue of hope is more than wishful thinking but is more akin to trust and confidence.

Hi and thanks for the reply and comments! Amen, and the more our "trust and confidence" is in God, the greater will be the results (2Co 1:9). I believe that proportionate to self-confidence will the failure be in sufficiency (2Co 3:5).

 

[Rapture Bound]

The assurance of glorification provided by the shed blood of Christ at Calvary ... the gift that keeps giving...eternally! ...that is, for all those who have simply received it through the channel of faith. We are told in Romans 8:30 that all who have been justified will be glorified [enter Heaven with resurrected bodies]. Therefore ...

no assurance = no salvation

know assurance = know salvation

Are you trusting in Christ's righteousness for your salvation?... or your own? Do you possess a "know so" salvation? ... or, are you 'crossing your fingers' and 'hoping' your performance will somehow buy you a ticket to glory? The hope that the scriptures speak of concerning a completed salvation is an assured hope ... it is crystal clear.

Romans 8:16, " The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:"

1 John 3:2, "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

My friends, I hope and pray that you know that you will receive a Heavenly inheritance. Christ's shed blood has guaranteed an entrance for all those who have truly received His free gift of eternal life by trusting in His righteousness and not their own.

2 Corinthians 5:21, "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

 

[Clare73]

Yes, as historically understood in Christianity, the virtue of hope is more than wishful thinking but is more akin to trust and confidence.
However, one can also be over-confident to the point of presumption. While God is infinitely trustworthy, good, and true, we’re still the wildcard in it all: limited, weak, sinful at times, still able to turn back away from God, living by the flesh rather than the Spirit, failing to persevere even with the gifts He’s given. At the end of the day He’ll be the judge of how we did, with the grace received-and then we’ll know our eternal destinies with perfect certainty.

However, the apostle John says that now
we know we have passed from death to (eternal) life (1 John 3:14),
we know what love is (1 John 3:16),
we know we belong to the truth (1 John 3:19),
we know that he lives in us (1 John 3:24).

 

[fhansen]

However, the apostle John says that now
we know we have passed from death to (eternal) life (1 John 3:14),

Yes, if we truly love.

we know what love is (1 John 3:16),

Yes, if we love in that way, as He did.

we know we belong to the truth (1 John 3:19),

Yes, if we love in actions and in truth as He did. (1 John 3:18).

we know that he lives in us (1 John 3:24).

Yes, if we keep His commands, summed up by the greatest commandments.
IOW, as the Church rightly teaches,
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

 

[Clare73]

Yes. . .if we truly love.
Yes. . .if we love in that way, as He did.
Yes. . .if we love in actions and in truth as He did. (1 John 3:18).
Yes. . .if we keep His commands, summed up by the greatest commandments.

So we can know now, and don't have to wait until the last day at the judgment to know, as you said.

IOW, as the Church rightly teaches,
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

Where do we find that verse in Scripture?

Many orthodox Jews love well, and also reject Jesus Christ.
They will not be judged on their "love."

All will be judged on their faith (John 3:18) which is manifested in obedience, which includes love.

Let's not try to improve on the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 4:6).

 

[Mark Quayle]

Let's not try to improve on the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 4:6).

THANK YOU! EXACTLY!

 

[fhansen]

So we can know now, and don't have to wait until the last day at the judgment to know, as you said.

IOW, based on our fruit, love stemming from a pure heart demonstrated by our actions, coupled with the knowledge of God and His promises, we can have great assurance regarding our salavation. But nonetheless gaurded assuarance due to our human weaknesses, frailties, limitations, ignorance, self-deception, sinfulness. We're not God, IOW-and He alone, who sees into and judges by the heart, knows with 100% certainty our eternal fates.

Where do we find that verse in Scripture?

Many orthodox Jews love well, and also reject Jesus Christ.
They will not be judged on their "love."

All will be judged on their faith (John 3:18) which is manifested in obedience, which includes love.

Let's not try to improve on the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 4:6).

And this is the problem-a very serious one in Christianity. 1 Cor 4:6 was referring to Old Testament writings-and by the Old Treatemant neither the Bereans nor the Eithopian Eunuch nor Jews on their own could ascertain the gospel truth-Jesus needed to come for that-to reveal the full "knowledge of God"- and His disciples received and taught that true gospel. IOW, Scripture is often vague, even seemingly contradictory at times, and this applies to the NT as well. So we end up with many sincere people who just know what it all means to say, while often disagreeing with other equally sincere folk who just know what it means to say, all insisting that no one should add to what they believe it means to say. Then, generally speaking, passages that appear to conflict with their theologies are either ignored or reinterpreted to mean something that forces them into their particular theological mold. So much for Sola Scriptura, the doctrine that crudely seeks to divorce the understanding of Gods Word from the Chruch He handed it to.

So, correctly understood, Scripture attests to the church teaching that I cited, beginning in Genesis and ending in Revelaltion. A brief synopsis:
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One. And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength." Deut 6:4-5

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." Matt 5:17-20

"If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Matt 22:37-40

"Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." Rom 8:10

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13

Love is the only authentic motivator for obedience, for lawfulness-it's the full true definition of righteouness for man-as it's the very nature of God we're to be tranformed into, begining at justification. And faith does not necesarily manifest itself in love even as it opens the door to it; Paul makes the point that the two are separate:
"...if I have a faith that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 13:2

"And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." 1 Cor 13:13

Augustine put it this way:
"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing."

And only God will be the judge of how well we've loved. Anyway, until a person understands the quoted teaching, they simply have a ways to go in their understanding of God. They've managed to improve Scripture beyond its meaning-and got off-track in their understanding. But, having said that, the knowledge of God is a progressive kind of thing; the church, itself, has grown in this understanding, into this light, Protestants along with Catholics. It just needs to be officially taught and emphasized more. And then we can better understand the full meaning of the following:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God." John 3:16-21

Man becomes just by the union with God that distinguishes him from the darkness of this world as he turns to Him in faith. Faith, itself, isnt the extent of justice or righteouness for man, nor does it replace it, rather, it's one part of it: the beginning and foundation of it. As we remain in and walk in the light, as we walk with God, then our salvation is worked out by virtue of and within that realtionship. It's a daily choice-to love with the love He gives us-or not. We can have a pretty good idea-based on the the fruits of the love the Spirit has given us (Rom 5:5)- how well we've done, how well we've daily chosen-to do our part with what we've been given.
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13

He'll give His judgement at the end of the day.

 

[Clare73]

IOW, based on our fruit, love stemming from a pure heart demonstrated by our actions, coupled with the knowledge of God and His promises, we can have great assurance regarding our salavation.

Orthodox Jews pass that test, and yet are not forgiven, remaining in their sin and condemnation
(Romans 5:18).

You left out the most important thing. . .faith in the person and atoning work (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and condemnation, giving right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," declared righteous.

You are not dealing with the Scriptures presented, substituting your own ideas instead.

But nonetheless gaurded assuarance due to our human weaknesses, frailties, limitations, ignorance, self-deception, sinfulness. We're not God, IOW-and He alone, who sees into and judges by the heart, knows with 100% certainty our eternal fates.
And this is the problem-a very serious one in Christianity. 1 Cor 4:6 was referring to Old Testament writings-and by the Old Treatemant neither the Bereans nor the Eithopian Eunuch nor Jews on their own could ascertain the gospel truth-Jesus needed to come for that-to reveal the full "knowledge of God"- and His disciples received and taught that true gospel.

IOW, Scripture is often vague, even seemingly contradictory at times, and this applies to the NT as well.

And yet you maintain that your church understands it correctly.
If your church can do that, so can other people.

So we end up with many sincere people who just know what it all means to say, while often disagreeing with other equally sincere folk who just know what it means to say, all insisting that no one should add to what they believe it means to say. Then, generally speaking, passages that appear to conflict with their theologies are either ignored or reinterpreted to mean something that forces them into their particular theological mold.
So much for Sola Scriptura, the doctrine that crudely seeks to divorce the understanding of Gods Word from the Chruch He handed it to.

On the one hand, you seek to demonstrate that Scripture is unknowable, while on the other hand you hold that your church, however, does know it. So which is it, knowable or unknowable, you can't have it both ways.

So, correctly understood,

"Correctly understood" being the way your church understands them?

Scripture attests to the church teaching that I cited, beginning in Genesis and ending in Revelaltion. A brief synopsis:
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One. And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength." Deut 6:4-5

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

I note that it will disappear when it is accomplished, which Jesus in fact has done.

Therefore, the law is abolished on the cross (Ephesians 2:15), and the Mosaic Covenant based on it is made obsolete (Hebrews 8:13).

Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven,

Which Jesus said would be done when they are fullfifilled, and now being fulfilled they are aside
(Hebrews 7:18) and disappear (Hebrews 8:13), being replaced with the the new order of Melchizedek (Hebrews 7:24-26).

but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." Matt 5:17-20

The righteousness which is imputed in justification by faith (Romans 4:5), as it was imputed (credited) to Abraham by faith (Romans 4:3; Genesis 5:6) is the righteousness of Jesus Christ (Romans 5:1-19) which does, indeed, surpass that of the Pharisees and teachers of the law.

"If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17

Indeed, that was the OT law, which no one could do according to their requirements and, therefore, no one was made righteous by keeping the law (Romans 3:9-10, Romans 3:20). . .rather, "all who rely on observing the law are under a curse" (Galatians 3:10), because it condemns all those who do not keep it as required.
So no one enters eternal life by keeping the commandments, rather they are cursed because of imperfect keeping of them (Galatians 3:10).

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Matt 22:37-40

And those two are the only laws of the New Covenant, for they fulfill the whole law (Romans 13:8-10).

"Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." Rom 8:10

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13

Which no one could do according to the requirements and, therefore, Romans 2:1-3:8 demonstrates the unrighteousness of the Jews, as Romans 1:18-32 demonstrated the unrighteousness of the Gentiles, thereby shutting up all men, Jew and Gentile alike, in sin (Romans 3:9) and in condemnation (Romans 5:18), with God's mercy being the only way out (Romans 11:32).

Love is the only authentic motivator for obedience,

True faith loves, if it does not love, it is not true faith, it is counterfeit faith.

for lawfulness-it's the full true definition of righteouness for man-as it's the very nature of God we're to be tranformed into, begining at justification. And faith does not necesarily manifest itself in love even as it opens the door to it; Paul makes the point that the two are separate:
"...if I have a faith that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 13:2

Precisely. . .nothing = spiritually dead, not born again, no true faith of the heart, faith only in the mind; i.e., intellectual assent, but not heart trust in Jesus' atonement for remission of their sin, and submission to God in the love and obedience of true saving faith.

"And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." 1 Cor 13:13

In context of the spiritual gifts which Paul is addressing, love supersedes all the gifts because it outlasts them all, which is not to say that love supersedes saving faith in Jesus Christ, for that would mean that those who love, as in Orthodox Jews, but are without saving faith in Jesus Christ are, nevertheless, in the body of Christ and are his bride.

Augustine put it this way:
"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing."

And only God will be the judge of how well we've loved. Anyway, until a person understands the quoted teaching, they simply have a ways to go in their understanding of God. They've managed to improve Scripture beyond its meaning-and got off-track in their understanding. But, having said that, the knowledge of God is a progressive kind of thing; the church, itself, has grown in this understanding, into this light, Protestants along with Catholics. It just needs to be officially taught and emphasized more. And

then we can better understand the full meaning of the following:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God." John 3:16-21

What do you think is not being understood in its full meaning in the above?

Man becomes just by the union with God that distinguishes him from the darkness of this world as he turns to Him in faith. Faith, itself, isnt the extent of justice or righteouness for man, nor does it replace it, rather, it's one part of it: the beginning and foundation of it. As we remain in and walk in the light, as we walk with God, then our salvation is worked out by virtue of and within that realtionship. It's a daily choice-to love with the love He gives us-or not. We can have a pretty good idea-based on the the fruits of the love the Spirit has given us (Rom 5:5)- how well we've done, how well we've daily chosen-to do our part with what we've been given.

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13
He'll give His judgment at the end of the day.

And those of true saving faith who love and obey can be confident of what that will be.

 

[fhansen]

Orthodox Jews pass that test, and yet are not forgiven, remaining in their sin and condemnation

That's pure speculation! God knows who passes that test-not you or me! We can only take an educated guess, which will be subjective even in our own cases.

You left out the most important thing. . .faith in the person and atoning work (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and condemnation, giving right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," declared righteous.

We receive forgiveness-the remission of sins-and are made actually just-which is why we no longer face condemnation.
"He thus condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:4

IOW, there's a real change in those born again, one that we must live by, now that we know God. So Rom 8 continues:
"Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you." Rom 8:5-9

It's the flesh that "does not submit to God's law", while the Spirit does so, by its nature, regardless of whether or not we've ever heard the law. So if we remain in Him and He in us we will bear much good fruit, including the overcoming of sin:
"...if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:13

"Correctly understood" being the way your church understands them?

Correctly understood meaning not incorrectly understood. Going by Scripture alone many people accuse others who likewise go by Scripture alone, of failing to understand. Meanwhile the ancient churches, the Eastern Orthodox and RC, for example, share essentially identical teachings on justification, due to having received the gospel at the beginning.

And yet you maintain that your church understands it correctly.

If your church can do that, so can other people.

Some do better, some worse going by Scripture alone. The difference is that the ancient churches do not rely on Scripture alone-as if it's all about "may the best exegete win", at least until a better one comes along, as if picking up the bible and reading it is all our faith is about. Those churches also have their lived experience, a historical legacy and source of revelation usually known as "Tradition", against which to compare various truth-claims of the faith.

On the one hand, you seek to demonstrate that Scripture is unknowable, while on the other hand you hold that your church, however, does know it. So which is it, knowable or unknowable, you can't have it both ways.

Yes, you can. We know by experience-the continuously held understanding of the faith, supported by the writings of the ECFS, incidentally. That understanding resolves many of the questions that often actually divide Protestants!

I note that it will disappear when it is accomplished, which Jesus in fact has done.

Absolutely not. Everything is said to be accomplished when heaven and earth disappear. So now we must not set aside even one of the least of these commands-and our righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees and teachers of the law. To the extent that we know and love God, and neighbor, that's actually a relatively easy task BTW. And that love, garnered by union with God as we respond to Him in faith, is the essence of justice or righteousness for man.

Therefore, the law is abolished on the cross (Ephesians 2:15), and the Mosaic Covenant based on it is made obsolete (Hebrews 8:13).

Which Jesus said would be done when they are fullfifilled, and now being fulfilled they are aside

(Hebrews 7:18) and disappear (Hebrews 8:13), being replaced with the the new order of Melchizedek (Hebrews 7:24-26).

All any of this is saying is that the law, while right and holy and good, cannot of itself accomplish the righteousness in us that only Christ-that only God- can. In Him we can fulfill the law, without needing to even hear the law. The old covenant is obsolete simply because the new covenant can finally accomplish in man what the old could not, the right and only true way, with God rather than on my own, still apart from Him. Faith justifies us because the union with God that faith means… is our justice, our righteousness-as it was for Abraham-and all righteousness flows exclusively from that relationship.

The righteousness which is imputed in justification by faith (Romans 4:5), as it was imputed (credited) to Abraham by faith (Romans 4:3; Genesis 5:6) is the righteousness of Jesus Christ (Romans 5:1-19) which does, indeed, surpass that of the Pharisees and teachers of the law.

Righteousness was credited to Abraham because he did the right thing-he believed, and acted on that faith. God has no need to merely impute a foreign righteousness, to make “snow-covered dung-heaps” instead of honest dung-heaps out of us-but to now give that righteousness as we enter the state of justice, though faith, of union with/subjugation to Him-to remove the dung. That’s the basis of righteousness for man. “Apart from Me you can do nothing.” Adam had set man apart from God, and the Law, by itself, did nothing to rectify that situation, an unjust situation which was, indeed, rectified by Jesus when He came, for all who turn to Him in faith. The reason that the righteousness of Christ surpasses that of the Pharisees and teachers of the law is because it consists of His love, that He now gives us as well. That’s what they lacked-that’s what Adam lacked for that matter.

Indeed, that was the OT law, which no one could do according to their requirements and, therefore, no one was made righteous by keeping the law (Romans 3:9-10, Romans 3:20). . .rather, "all who rely on observing the law are under a curse" (Galatians 3:10), because it condemns all those who do not keep it as required.

So no one enters eternal life by keeping the commandments, rather they are cursed because of imperfect keeping of them (Galatians 3:10).

No, no one enters life by being “under the law”, by merely keeping the commandments even if they could do so as Paul claimed he did in Phil 3. Paul’s false “obedience” did not justify him; only God can do that:
“…not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.” Phil 3:9

So, believe it or not, Jesus was right; we enter life by keeping the commandments but “under grace”, by the Spirit who pours put love into us (Rom 5:5), by keeping the greatest commandments IOW, which really does fulfill the rest (Rom 13:10). We don’t rely on the law-we don’t even need to hear the law-to fulfill it by love.

And those two are the only laws of the New Covenant, for they fulfill the whole law (Romans 13:8-10).

Exactly, so the law is fulfilled, but the right way now, to the extent that we love.

Which no one could do according to the requirements and, therefore, Romans 2:1-3:8 demonstrates the unrighteousness of the Jews, as Romans 1:18-32 demonstrated the unrighteousness of the Gentiles, thereby shutting up all men, Jew and Gentile alike, in sin (Romans 3:9) and in condemnation (Romans 5:18), with God's mercy being the only way out (Romans 11:32).

But there’s no need for such mental gymnastics. This is a case of what I mentioned in the same post:
“Then, generally speaking, passages that appear to conflict with their theologies are either ignored or reinterpreted to mean something that forces them into their particular theological mold.”

True faith loves, if it does not love, it is not true faith, it is counterfeit faith.

Ah yes, adding the qualifiers: “true faith”, saving faith”. Faith, even a faith that can move mountains, does not necessarily result in love which is a far superior accomplishment than moving mountains. Either way Paul distinguished between faith, hope, and love in 1 Cor 13. Faith, hope, and love are all gifts, but gifts that we must also continuously choose to embrace-and that we can refuse to embrace either at the beginning or at any point later along the way. To the extent that we are embracing them we’re picking up our cross daily- and following Jesus.

In context of the spiritual gifts which Paul is addressing, love supersedes all the gifts because it outlasts them all, which is not to say that love supersedes saving faith in Jesus Christ, for that would mean that those who love, as in Orthodox Jews, but are without saving faith in Jesus Christ are, nevertheless, in the body of Christ and are his bride.

As I mentioned, God determines if our love is of the quality and quantity that He desires, based on what we’ve been given in this life-based on the heart as only He knows it. Love is the command. Faith is the vehicle to fulfillment of that command because it’s the doorway to God, the source of love.

What do you think is not being understood in its full meaning in the above?

That we’ll be judged on our love.

And those of true saving faith who love and obey can be confident of what that will be.

Yes, we should have confidence if we love and obey-if we obey out of love to put it best. Basil of Caesarea, a 4th century bishop, put it this way:
"If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children."

 

[Clare73]

That's pure speculation! God knows who passes that test-not you or me! We can only take an educated guess, which will be subjective even in our own cases.

If you think those who deny and reject Christ are saved, then you don't believe the gospel (John 3:18, John 3:36).

We receive forgiveness-the remission of sins-and are made actually just-which is why we no longer face condemnation.
"He thus condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:4

IOW, there's a real change in those born again, one that we must live by, now that we know God. So Rom 8 continues:
"Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you." Rom 8:5-9

It's the flesh that "does not submit to God's law", while the Spirit does so, by its nature, regardless of whether or not we've ever heard the law. So if we remain in Him and He in us we will bear much good fruit, including the overcoming of sin:
"...if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:13
Correctly understood meaning not incorrectly understood. Going by Scripture alone many people accuse others who likewise go by Scripture alone, of failing to understand. Meanwhile the ancient churches, the Eastern Orthodox and RC, for example, share essentially identical teachings on justification, due to having received the gospel at the beginning.

Some do better, some worse going by Scripture alone. The difference is that the ancient churches do not rely on Scripture alone-as if it's all about "may the best exegete win", at least until a better one comes along,

as if picking up the bible and reading it is all our faith is about. Those churches also have their lived experience, a historical legacy and source of revelation usually known as "Tradition", against which to compare various truth-claims of the faith.

The Jews also had their traditions, which Jesus did not regard as "revelation," severely excoriating them for not being in agreement with Scripture (Matthew 15:6; Mark 7:8).

Any tradition not in agreement with Scripture is not of God, it is of man.
And if it agrees with Scripture, the tradition is superfluous.

Yes, you can. We know by experience-the continuously held understanding of the faith, supported by the writings of the ECFS, incidentally. That understanding resolves many of the questions that often actually divide Protestants!
Absolutely not. Everything is said to be accomplished when heaven and earth disappear. So now we must not set aside even one of the least of these commands-and our righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees and teachers of the law. To the extent that we know and love God, and neighbor, that's actually a relatively easy task BTW. And that love, garnered by union with God as we respond to Him in faith, is the essence of justice or righteousness for man.


All any of this is saying is that the law, while right and holy and good, cannot of itself accomplish the righteousness in us that only Christ-that only God- can. In Him we can fulfill the law, without needing to even hear the law. The old covenant is obsolete simply because the new covenant can finally accomplish in man what the old could not, the right and only true way, with God rather than on my own, still apart from Him. Faith justifies us because the union with God that faith means… is our justice, our righteousness-as it was for Abraham-and all righteousness flows exclusively from that relationship.

Righteousness was credited to Abraham because he did the right thing-he believed, and acted on that faith.
God has no need to merely impute a foreign righteousness,

Not quite. . .you are in disagreement with Moses and Paul on three points:

1) Abraham's righteousness was imputed/counted/reckoned (Heb: chashab; Gr: logizomai) to him (Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:3).

2) The righteousness of justification is apart from works/actions: "To the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked (dung-heap who has no good works), his faith is imputed (Gr: logizomai) as righteousness." (Romans 4:5)

3) Abraham's act of offering Isaac was 15 years after God credited him with righteousness, and had absolutely nothing to do with his being counted/credited with righteousness. His righteousness was credited to him strictly because of his faith, apart from any act/work (Romans 4:1-3, Romans 4:5).

to make “snow-covered dung-heaps” instead of honest dung-heaps out of us-but to now give that righteousness as we enter the state of justice, though faith, of union with/subjugation to Him-to remove the dung. That’s the basis of righteousness for man.

You do not rightly apprehend NT teaching on the righteousness of justification apart from works (Romans 4:5).

You confound it with the righteousness of sanctification leading to holiness (Romans 6:19) through obedience in the Holy Spirit (Romans 6:16).

“Apart from Me you can do nothing.” Adam had set man apart from God, and the Law, by itself, did nothing to rectify that situation, an unjust situation which was, indeed, rectified by Jesus when He came, for all who turn to Him in faith. The reason that the righteousness of Christ surpasses that of the Pharisees and teachers of the law is because it consists of His love, that He now gives us as well. That’s what they lacked-that’s what Adam lacked for that matter.

No, no one enters life by being “under the law”, by merely keeping the commandments even if they could do so as Paul claimed he did in Phil 3. Paul’s false “obedience” did not justify him; only God can do that:
“…not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.” Phil 3:9

So, believe it or not, Jesus was right; we enter life by keeping the commandments but “under grace”, by the Spirit who pours put love into us (Rom 5:5), by keeping the greatest commandments IOW, which really does fulfill the rest (Rom 13:10). We don’t rely on the law-we don’t even need to hear the law-to fulfill it by love.

Exactly, so the law is fulfilled, but the right way now, to the extent that we love.

But there's no need for such mental gymnastics.

In light of your misunderstanding of
1) imputation and
2) the imputed righteousness of justification as distinct from the righteousness of sanctification leading to holiness through obedience,

it is not surprising that you also misapprehend Paul's argument in Romans 1:18-3:8 showing the unrighteousness of the Gentiles and the unrighteousness of the Jews, thereby shutting up all mankind in sin (Romans 3:9) and unrighteousness (Romans 3:10), so that God is their only hope (Romans 3:21).

This is a case of what I mentioned in the same post:
“Then, generally speaking, passages that appear to conflict with their theologies are either ignored or reinterpreted to mean something that forces them into their particular theological mold.”

Ah yes, adding the qualifiers: “true faith”, saving faith”. Faith, even a faith that can move maintains, does not necessarily result in love which is a far superior accomplishment than moving mountains. Either way Paul distinguished between faith, hope, and love in 1 Cor 13. Faith, hope, and love are all gifts, but gifts that we must also continuously choose to embrace-and that we can refuse to embrace either at the beginning or at any point later along the way. To the extent that we are embracing them we’re picking up our cross daily- and following Jesus.

As I mentioned, God determines if our love is of the quality and quantity that He desires, based on what we’ve been given in this life-based on the heart as only He knows it. Love is the command.

Faith is the vehicle to fulfillment of that command because it’s the doorway to God, the source of love.

That we'll be judged on our love.

According to you, Orthodox Jews who love well, but deny and reject Jesus Christ in unbelief, will be judged on their love, with their rejection of Jesus Christ overlooked.

You do not apprehend the teaching of Jesus (John 3:18, John 3:36).

Yes, we should have confidence if we love and obey-if we obey out of love to put it best. Basil of Caesarea, a 4th century bishop, put it this way:
"If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children."

 

[fhansen]

If you think those who deny and reject Christ are saved, then you don't believe the gospel (John 3:18, John 3:36).

That's not what I said. I said we'll be judged on our love. And the means to that love is faith.

Any tradition not in agreement with Scripture is not of God, it is of man.
And if it agrees with Scripture, the tradition is superfluous.

Well, I guess Paul was wrong then in 2nd Thess to instruct believers to hold fast to tradtions/teachings whether oral or written. And at least such tradition stems from the vantage point of experience whereas as you simply pick up a book centuries later and offer up private interpretations like some kind of neo-pope. Tradition may or may not agree with you but it certainly agrees with Scripture.

 

[fhansen]

1) Abraham's righteousness was imputed/counted/reckoned (Heb: chashab; Gr: logizomai) to him (Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:3).

counted, reckoned work well-and align with the Hebrew and Greek

2) The righteousness of justification is apart from works/actions: "To the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked (dung-heap who has no good works), his faith is imputed (Gr: logizomai) as righteousness." (Romans 4:5)

Yes, but at justification man is made just/right, apart from any righteousness he may think he has on his own, apart from God.

3) Abraham's act of offering Isaac was 15 years after God credited him with righteousness, and had absolutely nothing to do with his being counted/credited with righteousness. His righteousness was credited to him strictly because of his faith, apart from any act/work (Romans 4:1-3, Romans 4:5).

Well, not according to James.
"You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone." James 2:20-24

Either way, I don't disagree that we're justifed by faith. The main thing is that justification consists in our being made righteous, where before we were not, not merely imputed to be righteous. That difference explains why a believer would begin to behave more righteounessly after conversion. There'd be no reason for him to do so otherwise, if righteouness is only imputed.

In light of your misunderstanding of
1) imputation and
2) the imputed righteousness of justification as distinct from the righteousness of sanctification leading to holiness through obedience,

it is not surprising that you also misapprehend Paul's argument in Romans 1:18-3:8 showing the unrighteousness of the Gentiles and the unrighteousness of the Jews, thereby shutting up all mankind in sin (Romans 3:9) and unrighteousness (Romans 3:10), so that God is their only hope (Romans 3:21).

Nothing in Rom 1-3 indicates anything other than Paul explaining what makes a person righteous and worthy of salvation, Jew and Gentile alike. We must not separate justification from being made personally just, even if only in a seedling form that must be exercised, stretched, tested, expressed, grown, etc.

You confound it with the righteousness of sanctification leading to holiness (Romans 6:19) through obedience in the Holy Spirit (Romans 6:16).

Sorry, you confound the matter by splitting up the two, justification and sanctifaction, when in reality they're part and parcel of the same process, or journey, both aimed at our becoming righteous in order to gain eternal life. So it's necessary to read on:
"What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:21-23

So the Church teaches:
2019 Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man.

According to you, Orthodox Jews who love well, but deny and reject Jesus Christ in unbelief, will be judged on their love, with their rejection of Jesus Christ overlooked.

You keep saying that for some reason, but I never did. Apparently you think that certain Jews loved well, but I have no idea about that. But even if so, so be it-God can deal with them. He knows each heart and each person's motivations and reasons far better than we do.

 

[prophecy_uk]

As you guys talk about love for a moment, of course that is the secret of God, God being love, and to know the love of Jesus is believing in His love being here on earth, dying for us, and giving us that same feeling and joined with God in love. The love of Christ passes all understanding, discussing it and not walking in it instead, reveals to some, how it cant be fond in their discussions.


Ephesians 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

 

[prophecy_uk]

As you guys talk about love for a moment, of course that is the secret of God, God being love, and to know the love of Jesus is believing in His love being here on earth, dying for us, and giving us that same feeling and joined with God in love. The love of Christ passes all understanding, discussing it and not walking in it instead, reveals to some, how it cant be fond in their discussions.


Ephesians 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

 

[prophecy_uk]

As you guys talk about love for a moment, of course that is the secret of God, God being love, and to know the love of Jesus is believing in His love being here on earth, dying for us, and giving us that same feeling and joined with God in love. The love of Christ passes all understanding, discussing it and not walking in it instead, reveals to some, how it cant be found in their discussions.


Ephesians 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

 

[fhansen]

As you guys talk about love for a moment, of course that is the secret of God, God being love, and to know the love of Jesus is believing in His love being here on earth, dying for us, and giving us that same feeling and joined with God in love. The love of Christ passes all understanding, discussing it and not walking in it instead, reveals to some, how it cant be fond in their discussions.


Ephesians 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

I agree. And that love becomes the focal point of the Christian faith, of our faith, once known. But it’s not just about believing in His love here on earth, but to experience that love: again, to know it. That’s a game-changer. And that’s grace. Its to know Him, and why He came. It’s more than just quoting Bible verses.

 

[Clare73]

That's not what I said. I said we'll be judged on our love. And the means to that love is faith.
Well, I guess Paul was wrong then in 2nd Thess to instruct believers to hold fast to tradtions/teachings whether oral or written.

Actually, it is you who are wrong.
First, you did not address Jesus' excoriation of traditions/practices.
And secondly, Paul is talking about his teachings, not traditional practices, which there had not yet been enough time to even establish.

And at least such tradition stems from the vantage point of experience

Which is precisely the problem, because it is experience of the fallen nature, not of God, and must be judged by what is written.
Human experience has nothing to do with divine truth, only what is written does.

whereas as you simply pick up a book centuries later and offer up private interpretations

Same old saw. . .the word of God written is unknowable, except by the heirarchial intelligentsia.
1) It is regrettable that you have such a low view of the word of God written.

2) It is likewise regrettable that you do not agree with the NT's view of Scripture as useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16), which means it is knowable to the believer himself and he is to study it for himself.

like some kind of neo-pope. Tradition may or may not agree with you but it certainly agrees with Scripture.

Infallibility of the pope, purgatory, praying for the deceased, praying to the deceased, veneration of relics, indulgences, etc. are not found in the NT.

 

[Clare73]

counted, reckoned work well-and align with the Hebrew and Greek

Yes, but at justification man is made just/right, apart from any righteousness he may think he has on his own, apart from God.

Well, not according to James.

That's your own remark above (post #14) that you are denying below.

"You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone." James 2:20-24

In the Greek your "considered righteous" in the above is "justified" (dikaioo), which means "to show to be right" about something, as in Romans 3:4: "So that you may be proved right (dikaioo, justified) when you speak and prevail when you judge,"
and as Abraham's action in Genesis 22 showed his faith of Genesis 15 to be true/right (dikaioo, justified) and, therefore, credited as righteousness.
His action of Genesis 22 did not make his faith of Genesis 15 true/right and, therefore, righteousness was credited to him in Genesis 22 rather than in Genesis 15.

Either way, I don't disagree that we're justifed by faith. The main thing is that justification consists in our being made righteous, where before we were not, not merely imputed to be righteous.

Abraham is the pattern for the NT.
Righteousness was imputed to Abraham because of his faith,
he was not made righteous.
Likewise in justification where, by faith, we are both declared "not guilty" and
the righteousness of Jesus Christ is imputed to us (Romans 5:18-19),
just as by faith, righteousness was imputed to Abraham.

That difference explains why a believer would begin to behave more righteounessly after conversion.

No, the faith of the new birth into eternal life explains why a believer's behavior changes.

There'd be no reason for him to do so otherwise, if righteouness is only imputed.

Too much human reasoning, and not enough Biblical teaching.

Nothing in Rom 1-3 indicates anything other than Paul explaining what makes a person righteous and worthy of salvation, Jew and Gentile alike.

CONTRARE! . . .

Evidently you aren't reading the Scriptures posted, or you are not understanding what you read. . .helps me understand your need for "tradition" to interpret Scripture for you, and it's not doing a very good job.

Paul's conclusion in Romans 3:9-10: "Are we (Jews) any better (than Gentiles in the sight of God)? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin (condemned to eternal damnation). As it is written: 'There is no one righteous, not even one.' "

indeed does more than "indicate" what makes a person righteous and worthy of salvation.
His conclusion to the entire passage (1:18-3:20):
"Therefore, no one will be declared righteous in God's sight" (Romans 3:20)
shows that all mankind is condemned because of unrighteousness,

and to which he shows God alone as their only hope in Romans 3:21:
"But now a righteousness from God, apart from (works of) the law, has been made known,"
ending the passage (3:20) where he began in 1:18--the wickedness of all mankind, and God as their only hope (3:21):

17) "For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last (from faith to faith), just as it is written: 'The righteous will live by faith.'
18) The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,"

and he goes on from there to demonstrate the unrighteousness of the Gentiles (Romans 1:18-32), and then the unrighteousness of the Jews (Romans 2:1-3:8), summarizing in the unrighteousness of all mankind (Romans 3:9-20).

So in Romans 1:18-3:20 rightly understood, Paul doesn't "indicate," rather he specifically demonstrates the unrighteousness of all mankind which condemns all mankind to eternal damnation, and thereby leaving God alone as their only hope.

We must not separate justification from being made personally just,
Sorry, you confound the matter by splitting up the two, justification and sanctifaction, when in reality they're part and pa.rcel of the same process,

As does the NT.

The meaning of justification (dikaiosis) is simply the act of pronouncing, declaring the establishment of one as righteous (just) by acquittal of guilt, thereby giving one right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty."
It is not our own righteousness, as Abraham's righteousness was not his own righteousness but was an imputed/credited righteousness.
Likewise, in justification ours is also not our own righteousness, it is likewise an imputed/credited righteousness. . .of Jesus Christ:

". . .the result of one act of righteousness (the cross) was
justification (declared "not guilty" and in right standing with God)
that brings life. . .through the obedience of the one, the many will be made righteous."
(Romans 5:18-19)
"Made righteous" in justification, by faith (apart from works--Romans 3:28; Galatians 2:16)
being credited/imputed to us as Christ's righteousness, as Abraham believed and his faith was credited/imputed to him as righteousness.

So. . .the righteousness of justification:
1) is not an imparted/infused righteousness conferring righteous character.
That is not the meaning of the word dikaiosis (justification) in the Greek, which is simply a "declaration of not guilty,"

2) is not our own righteousness, as Abraham's righteousness was not his own righteousness, it is the credited/imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ by faith.

And. . .the righteousness of sanctification:
is our own righteousness of character by the Holy Spirit in the obedience of sanctification leading to holiness. (Romans 6:16, Romans 6:19)

That is the NT teaching "splitting up the two" which you do not understand.

The NT presents both as righteousness:
justification - imputation of Christ's righteousness by faith giving us right standing with God,
sanctification - of the Holy Spirit through obedience leading to holiness.

or journey, both aimed at our becoming righteous in order to gain eternal life. So it's necessary to read on:
"What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:21-23

So the Church teaches:
2019 Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man.

You keep saying that for some reason, but I never did. Apparently you think that certain Jews loved well, but I have no idea about that. But even if so, so be it-God can deal with them. He knows each heart and each person's motivations and reasons far better than we do.

None of which changes the fact that Jesus said those who deny and reject him are condemned
(John 3:18, John 3:36), which you keep trying to skirt.