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<blockquote data-quote="JustAnotherAbdullah" data-source="post: 61135811" data-attributes="member: 309266"><p style="text-align: center"><strong>All praise is to God alone and peace and blessings be upon all of his messengers.</strong></p><p></p><p>First off, I want to thank EVERYBODY for responding to my questions. May God reward you for every single letter you typed.</p><p></p><p><span style="color: Red">Secondly, I want to mention that what I say is only MY understanding of things And I could be wrong.</span></p><p></p><p>And lastly, before I start, I want to say that I will post verses from the Quran as well, just to help you better understand where I am coming from and what my thought process is... Also, why I have a hard time understanding & accepting Christian teachings...</p><p></p><p style="text-align: center"><span style="color: Magenta"><strong>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (1) ANGELS ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</strong></span></p> <p style="text-align: center"><span style="color: Magenta"><strong></strong></span></p><p></p><p>My ignorance of Biblical teachings lead me to assuming...</p><p></p><p>As for the angels Islams viewpoint on them is that they were created by God to worship, obey, glorify, serve, etc God. They do not have free-will to choose NOT to obey God, as that is not in their nature as they were created for purpose of being God's servants. Humans have free will; angels don't.</p><p></p><p><span style="color: Blue">They celebrate His praises night and day, nor do they ever slacken. </span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">(Quran 21:20)</span></p><p></p><p>Knowing Islams explanation of angels, I assumed it was the same in Christianity as well, but I guess thats where I assumed wrong. Lucifer (Iblis) in Quran became jealous at ADAM (P), not GOD He became jealous at the fact that Adam (p) had replaced him as Gods favorite creature; as he had pride and arrogance. He was NOT of the Angels. He was a jinn who had been a loyal servant of God and his favorite creature before disobeying a showing his true colors He then made a supplication to God not to destroy him and to allow him to try to misguide mankind until the Day of Judgment, and God accepted his prayer/supplication.</p><p></p><p>That is Islams view on Angels & Iblis/Lucifer, according to my knowledge of it.</p><p></p><p></p><p style="text-align: center"><span style="color: Magenta"><strong>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (2) ADAM'S SIN ("ORIGINAL SIN") ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</strong></span></p> <p style="text-align: center"><span style="color: Magenta"><strong></strong></span></p><p></p><p>Again, my ignorance of Biblical teachings has lead me to another incorrect assumption.</p><p></p><p>According to the Quran, Adam repented...</p><p></p><p><span style="color: blue">Then Adam received from his Lord [some] words, and He accepted his repentance. Indeed, it is He who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful. </span></p><p><span style="color: blue">(Quran 2:37)</span></p><p></p><p>As you can see, Quran teaches us that Adam repented and asked for forgiveness, and God forgave him (no original sin)</p><p></p><p>As for the answer that sin is paid back with blood sacrifice To me, it doesnt make sense that God would require blood sacrifice as well. I believe God is more merciful than that, I guess. I see humans forgiving murder without sacrifice, and I don't believe them to be more merciful than God.</p><p></p><p>The result of Adams fall remains? Not according to Deuteronomy, as far as I understand it. </p><p></p><p>The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. </p><p>(Deuteronomy 24:16)</p><p></p><p><span style="color: blue"> No person earns any (sin) except against himself (only), and no bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another </span></p><p><span style="color: blue">(Quran 6:164)</span></p><p></p><p>By the verses from the Quran and the Bible, it would point to us <strong>not </strong>carrying the sin of Adam <strong>even</strong> if he did not repent.</p><p></p><p>Again, Quran teaches that Adam repented, God accepted, and we dont carry the sin... We are born without sin. So it's hard for me to comprehend the Biblical version where God has to KILL somebody in order to forgive Adam for sinning.</p><p></p><p>May God forgive me if I have stated something which is false, everything above is only my understanding of Quranic teachings & Islam.</p><p></p><p style="text-align: center"><span style="color: Magenta"><strong>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (3 & 4) JESUS ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</strong></span></p> <p style="text-align: center"><span style="color: Magenta"><strong></strong></span></p><p></p><p>And finally, the questions about Jesus (P)...</p><p></p><p>I have heard those answers before, and they are not satisfactory to my intellect. </p><p></p><p>Here is the problem. People say The Son and the Father are One But even Bible shows that that there were things that the Son could not do or did not know, which the Father DID. As GrayAngel quoted: <span style="color: blue"><em>For His second coming, Jesus said that even He didn't know when He'd return, but only the Father knew.</em></span></p><p></p><p>So for those people who say ONE BEING, 3 REVELATIONS that conflicts with Jesuss limitations. If JESUS and FATHER are ONE, then they would be ONE in knowledge, power, ability.</p><p></p><p><span style="color: blue">I can do nothing of my own authority' </span></p><p><span style="color: blue">(John 5:30)</span></p><p></p><p>So the above verse indicates that Jesus (SON) is somehow on a lower level than GOD (Father)? Indicating he did not have the same authority as God? </p><p>There are other verses in the Bible that would go against Jesus being on the same level as GOD. Does that mean that GOD is above JESUS who is above HOLY SPIRIT? That logic would at least explain some of the statements in the Bible.</p><p></p><p><span style="color: blue">The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servant Jesus, whom you delivered over and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release him. </span></p><p><span style="color: blue">(Acts 3:13)</span></p><p></p><p>The disciples of Jesus knew him as a servant of God, not LITERAL SON OF GOD. They would have known best And it seems like it would have been made CLEAR that he is the LITERAL SON of God And verses such as the one above wouldnt have been placed in the Bible, which point to Jesus being nothing more than a Servant of God...</p><p></p><p>Also, did Jesus (SON) exist even before his body was created on this earth or did this 3rd revelation of God come into existence only 2000 years ago?</p><p></p><p>For the H2O analogy... So do you believe God to be like those three in the sense that you can have them all 3 present at once in 1 room? Or do you believe to be them 3 different "types" but all ONE type still? Meaning, you can have water, gas, and ice all present in a room... Do you believe in the trinity in that sense? Or do you claim that they are all somehow ONE, while being 3 different "forms"...</p><p></p><p>To me, saying "Jesus is fully divine and fully human" is like saying "something is a square and a circle at the same time"... my brain can't accept & process that statement.</p><p></p><p>Quran teaches that Jesus (like all other prophets & messengers of God) was just a human. He was born through a virgin birth, as God said be and in was </p><p></p><p><span style="color: blue">"Behold! the angels said, 'Oh Mary! God gives you glad tidings of a Word from Him. His name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter, and in (the company of) those nearest to God. He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. He shall be (in the company) of the righteous... And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel'" </span></p><p><span style="color: blue">(Quran 3:45-48).</span></p><p></p><p><strong>One of the most fascinating verses in the Quran to me is the following:</strong></p><p><span style="color: blue">"And behold! God will say [i.e. on the Day of Judgment]: 'Oh Jesus, the son of Mary! Did you say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God?' He will say: 'Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would indeed have known it. You know what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Yours. For You know in full all that is hidden. Never did I say to them anything except what You commanded me to say: 'Worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I lived among them. When You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a witness to all things'"</span></p><p><span style="color: blue">(Quran 5:116-117)</span>.</p><p></p><p>Quran the final revelation from God to man. The above verse shows that GOD wanted to correct the error man has fallen into when it comes to Jesus Christ and He revealed that verse, to clarify the case with Jesus and to give Christians clear guidance, who are seeking guidance.</p><p></p><p>The Quran defines itself right off the bat, with one of my favorite verses:</p><p><span style="color: blue">This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear God.</span></p><p><span style="color: blue">(Quran 2:2)</span></p><p></p><p>Early followers of Christ believed him to be a servant of God. The concept of his divinity was later introduced, <strong>which explains why NOWHERE in the Bible does it clearly state JESUS IS GOD</strong> The church has translated the books to their desires and has taken <strong>ambiguous </strong>statements and made them hint to trinity.</p><p></p><p>The word trinity is nowhere in the Bible.</p><p></p><p>The answer the trinity is a mystery that cannot be comprehended by human brain doesnt suffice for me because I cannot accept that GOD would ask his servants to accept something that goes against their intellect. Have faith is not enough for me I can say that I have looked for the truth, and I just have trouble believing that GOD would send me to HELL because I refused to accept that He had a SON... Which was against my human intellect in the first place.</p><p></p><p style="text-align: center"><span style="color: Red"><strong>God is my witness that I am NOT trying to be hateful or insult your religion. I am trying to make myself understand and I am trying to show you my perspective, which plays a role in why I can't understand the twists & turns in modern day Christianity. It asks a lot of "mental gymnastics" to be performed just to be able to understand it's basic beliefs. The staff on this board may get upset at my post and delete it perhaps, because I pose questions Christians would rather avoid, and I provide a comparison answer which seems more logical and God-like.</strong></span></p><p></p><p>Coming from a faith which believes in the COMPLETE ONENESS of GOD, it is hard to comprehend that GOD having a Son. God says in the Quran that He is ABOVE having a Son.</p><p></p><p>I did not realize how long this reply turned out. Please feel free to send me a private message for further discussion; as my response may not be acceptable according to the forum rules </p><p></p><p>As-Salamu Alaykum / Peace and blessings be upon you all, my brothers in humanity.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="JustAnotherAbdullah, post: 61135811, member: 309266"] [CENTER][B]All praise is to God alone and peace and blessings be upon all of his messengers.[/B][/CENTER] First off, I want to thank EVERYBODY for responding to my questions. May God reward you for every single letter you typed. [COLOR="Red"]Secondly, I want to mention that what I say is only MY understanding of things And I could be wrong.[/COLOR] And lastly, before I start, I want to say that I will post verses from the Quran as well, just to help you better understand where I am coming from and what my thought process is... Also, why I have a hard time understanding & accepting Christian teachings... [CENTER][COLOR="Magenta"][B]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (1) ANGELS ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [/B][/COLOR][/CENTER] My ignorance of Biblical teachings lead me to assuming... As for the angels Islams viewpoint on them is that they were created by God to worship, obey, glorify, serve, etc God. They do not have free-will to choose NOT to obey God, as that is not in their nature as they were created for purpose of being God's servants. Humans have free will; angels don't. [COLOR="Blue"]They celebrate His praises night and day, nor do they ever slacken. (Quran 21:20)[/COLOR] Knowing Islams explanation of angels, I assumed it was the same in Christianity as well, but I guess thats where I assumed wrong. Lucifer (Iblis) in Quran became jealous at ADAM (P), not GOD He became jealous at the fact that Adam (p) had replaced him as Gods favorite creature; as he had pride and arrogance. He was NOT of the Angels. He was a jinn who had been a loyal servant of God and his favorite creature before disobeying a showing his true colors He then made a supplication to God not to destroy him and to allow him to try to misguide mankind until the Day of Judgment, and God accepted his prayer/supplication. That is Islams view on Angels & Iblis/Lucifer, according to my knowledge of it. [CENTER][COLOR="Magenta"][B]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (2) ADAM'S SIN ("ORIGINAL SIN") ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [/B][/COLOR][/CENTER] Again, my ignorance of Biblical teachings has lead me to another incorrect assumption. According to the Quran, Adam repented... [COLOR="blue"]Then Adam received from his Lord [some] words, and He accepted his repentance. Indeed, it is He who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful. (Quran 2:37)[/COLOR] As you can see, Quran teaches us that Adam repented and asked for forgiveness, and God forgave him (no original sin) As for the answer that sin is paid back with blood sacrifice To me, it doesnt make sense that God would require blood sacrifice as well. I believe God is more merciful than that, I guess. I see humans forgiving murder without sacrifice, and I don't believe them to be more merciful than God. The result of Adams fall remains? Not according to Deuteronomy, as far as I understand it. The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. (Deuteronomy 24:16) [COLOR="blue"] No person earns any (sin) except against himself (only), and no bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another (Quran 6:164)[/COLOR] By the verses from the Quran and the Bible, it would point to us [B]not [/B]carrying the sin of Adam [B]even[/B] if he did not repent. Again, Quran teaches that Adam repented, God accepted, and we dont carry the sin... We are born without sin. So it's hard for me to comprehend the Biblical version where God has to KILL somebody in order to forgive Adam for sinning. May God forgive me if I have stated something which is false, everything above is only my understanding of Quranic teachings & Islam. [CENTER][COLOR="Magenta"][B]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (3 & 4) JESUS ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [/B][/COLOR][/CENTER] And finally, the questions about Jesus (P)... I have heard those answers before, and they are not satisfactory to my intellect. Here is the problem. People say The Son and the Father are One But even Bible shows that that there were things that the Son could not do or did not know, which the Father DID. As GrayAngel quoted: [COLOR="blue"][I]For His second coming, Jesus said that even He didn't know when He'd return, but only the Father knew.[/I][/COLOR] So for those people who say ONE BEING, 3 REVELATIONS that conflicts with Jesuss limitations. If JESUS and FATHER are ONE, then they would be ONE in knowledge, power, ability. [COLOR="blue"]I can do nothing of my own authority' (John 5:30)[/COLOR] So the above verse indicates that Jesus (SON) is somehow on a lower level than GOD (Father)? Indicating he did not have the same authority as God? There are other verses in the Bible that would go against Jesus being on the same level as GOD. Does that mean that GOD is above JESUS who is above HOLY SPIRIT? That logic would at least explain some of the statements in the Bible. [COLOR="blue"]The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servant Jesus, whom you delivered over and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release him. (Acts 3:13)[/COLOR] The disciples of Jesus knew him as a servant of God, not LITERAL SON OF GOD. They would have known best And it seems like it would have been made CLEAR that he is the LITERAL SON of God And verses such as the one above wouldnt have been placed in the Bible, which point to Jesus being nothing more than a Servant of God... Also, did Jesus (SON) exist even before his body was created on this earth or did this 3rd revelation of God come into existence only 2000 years ago? For the H2O analogy... So do you believe God to be like those three in the sense that you can have them all 3 present at once in 1 room? Or do you believe to be them 3 different "types" but all ONE type still? Meaning, you can have water, gas, and ice all present in a room... Do you believe in the trinity in that sense? Or do you claim that they are all somehow ONE, while being 3 different "forms"... To me, saying "Jesus is fully divine and fully human" is like saying "something is a square and a circle at the same time"... my brain can't accept & process that statement. Quran teaches that Jesus (like all other prophets & messengers of God) was just a human. He was born through a virgin birth, as God said be and in was [COLOR="blue"]"Behold! the angels said, 'Oh Mary! God gives you glad tidings of a Word from Him. His name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter, and in (the company of) those nearest to God. He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. He shall be (in the company) of the righteous... And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel'" (Quran 3:45-48).[/COLOR] [B]One of the most fascinating verses in the Quran to me is the following:[/B] [COLOR="blue"]"And behold! God will say [i.e. on the Day of Judgment]: 'Oh Jesus, the son of Mary! Did you say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God?' He will say: 'Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would indeed have known it. You know what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Yours. For You know in full all that is hidden. Never did I say to them anything except what You commanded me to say: 'Worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I lived among them. When You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a witness to all things'" (Quran 5:116-117)[/COLOR]. Quran the final revelation from God to man. The above verse shows that GOD wanted to correct the error man has fallen into when it comes to Jesus Christ and He revealed that verse, to clarify the case with Jesus and to give Christians clear guidance, who are seeking guidance. The Quran defines itself right off the bat, with one of my favorite verses: [COLOR="blue"]This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear God. (Quran 2:2)[/COLOR] Early followers of Christ believed him to be a servant of God. The concept of his divinity was later introduced, [B]which explains why NOWHERE in the Bible does it clearly state JESUS IS GOD[/B] The church has translated the books to their desires and has taken [B]ambiguous [/B]statements and made them hint to trinity. The word trinity is nowhere in the Bible. The answer the trinity is a mystery that cannot be comprehended by human brain doesnt suffice for me because I cannot accept that GOD would ask his servants to accept something that goes against their intellect. Have faith is not enough for me I can say that I have looked for the truth, and I just have trouble believing that GOD would send me to HELL because I refused to accept that He had a SON... Which was against my human intellect in the first place. [CENTER][COLOR="Red"][B]God is my witness that I am NOT trying to be hateful or insult your religion. I am trying to make myself understand and I am trying to show you my perspective, which plays a role in why I can't understand the twists & turns in modern day Christianity. It asks a lot of "mental gymnastics" to be performed just to be able to understand it's basic beliefs. The staff on this board may get upset at my post and delete it perhaps, because I pose questions Christians would rather avoid, and I provide a comparison answer which seems more logical and God-like.[/B][/COLOR][/CENTER] Coming from a faith which believes in the COMPLETE ONENESS of GOD, it is hard to comprehend that GOD having a Son. God says in the Quran that He is ABOVE having a Son. I did not realize how long this reply turned out. Please feel free to send me a private message for further discussion; as my response may not be acceptable according to the forum rules As-Salamu Alaykum / Peace and blessings be upon you all, my brothers in humanity. [/QUOTE]
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