A concept that will greatly help in understanding end time prophecy.

[Biblewriter]

Unless you are a modern day Israeli Jew, then your continued rejection of Christ is your ticket to finding favor in the eyes of God....

Although one TV preacher has been accused of spouting such nonsense, no dispensationalist of any repute whatsoever has ever even suggested the idea that anyone who continues to reject Christ will ever find favor with God.

The promise to Israel is that they will be brought to repentance and then blessed, not that they will be blessed without repentance.

 

[Biblewriter]

Because where sin abounds, grace abounds even more, Rom 5. If they can be justified from their sins, anyone can.

Yes, even rebellious Israel, after they have finally repented, as God has specifically promised He will cause to happen. But that will only be after He has taken us to be with himself in heaven.

 

[Shocker]

not that they will be blessed without repentance.

I would challenge you on that BW, not saying I full on disagree with you, but Id like your rendition of this verse brother.

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

 

[Biblewriter]

I would challenge you on that BW, not saying I full on disagree with you, but Id like your rendition of this verse brother.

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Isaiah 66:15-20 clearly shows that the return of all Israel will be after, not before, the Lord comes "with fire, to render His anger with fury, and His rebuke with flames of fire."

Ezekiel 20:33-38 just as clearly states that when that takes place, the Lord Himself will meet them "face to face," and purge out all the rebels from among them, explicitly saying of these rebels that "I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel." (Ezekiel 20:38)

But Zechariah 13:6 says that at that time "one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends." From this, we know that at that time, they will clearly recognize Him as their long awaited Messiah. But they will not yet know that He is that same Jesus whose name they have so long despised.

We find the result in Zechariah 12, where we read:


10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
11 In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves;
13 the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves;
14 all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves.
Zechariah 12:10-1

And the long term result will be that “No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.” (Jeremiah 31:34)

"And so all Israel will be saved." (Romans 11:26) But that will only happen when "they do not continue in unbelief." (Romans 11:23) This promise, in Romans 11:23 is indeed conditional for the whole statement is "And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." But the other scriptures I have just quoted clearly show that God Himself will bring about the repentance and faith that is the condition attached to this promise.

 

[Shocker]

Isaiah 66:15-20 clearly shows that the return of all Israel will be after, not before, the Lord comes "with fire, to render His anger with fury, and His rebuke with flames of fire."

Ezekiel 20:33-38 just as clearly states that when that takes place, the Lord Himself will meet them "face to face," and purge out all the rebels from among them, explicitly saying of these rebels that "I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel." (Ezekiel 20:38)

But Zechariah 13:6 says that at that time "one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends." From this, we know that at that time, they will clearly recognize Him as their long awaited Messiah. But they will not yet know that He is that same Jesus whose name they have so long despised.

We find the result in Zechariah 12, where we read:


10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
11 In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves;
13 the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves;
14 all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves.
Zechariah 12:10-1

And the long term result will be that “No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.” (Jeremiah 31:34)

"And so all Israel will be saved." (Romans 11:26) But that will only happen when "they do not continue in unbelief." (Romans 11:23) This promise, in Romans 11:23 is indeed conditional for the whole statement is "And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." But the other scriptures I have just quoted clearly show that God Himself will bring about the repentance and faith that is the condition attached to this promise.

I don't know, seems a bit unfair, God is going to condemn all Jews for the last 2000 years to hell, but save a small group from the 21st century only??


Not saying that isn't correct, but its not the God Ive come to know and have a relationship with in Jesus Christ.

Way I see it, the Jews have been living by faith alone for 2000 years with no way to practice the mosaic covenant.

In fact, when the Jews do restart the practices of the mosaic covenant, I believe Daniels final week will begin, as a result.

 

[John S]

God is NOT going to condemn all Jews for the last 2000 years to Hell. That's hate-filled, ridiculous, ignorant nonsense.

 

[Shocker]

God is NOT going to condemn all Jews for the last 2000 years to Hell. That's hate-filled, ridiculous, ignorant nonsense.

That's 2 for 2.

Why are we not friends again?

 

[NannaNae]

I am going to try and explain what I think you might be missing in your concepts of history and such. and how they might apply to God's structures and his concepts and what they were built from sort of ...

if we think about What Abraham went looking for a city not made with human hands.
was the land of Israel the fulfillment of that promise..
or was it a token? he never got a city not made by human hands.

so remember the idea of token or maybe a deposit or maybe a picture of something else.

in the ancient world have you noticed how archaeologist and such argue endlessly about where a certain people were, where they were located etc. . and the records and the proof never quite prove anything .. there is always like it is just huge "mystery" they can't answer and when they do the next guy proves them wrong with his
" indisputable" evidence. and is really just as wrong and just as right as th e last guys ideas ..

part of this issue they can't or don't want to explain is they are using current ideas of politics and social structures to apply to ancient cultures.
and they weren't the same thing as it is now..

for a hint of ancient ideas in current times , let take the concepts of ambassadors and their consulates being the land of that ambassadors nation..

so our ports and our basses around the world are US territory, US land.

now apply this concept to city states and trading ports around the world. For " Isles of Elishah " things were set up this way so that no part of the world lacked anything it needed..


thus you can have " the Isles of Elishah"



http://creationwiki.org/Elishah

Elesium- http://www.google.com/url?q=http://...Qo4-cw&usg=AFQjCNHv3w7EcdKT1UnedUQJn_lM22FN9w

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alashiya

Alegre

Algeria http://www.google.com/url?q=http://...iWzNoA&usg=AFQjCNFGD8mn2rO7QJ8j-TXyRvv_fESf0g

Alger

Alasehir
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaşehir

Allegheny/ Allegewi etc. and many many more

these were one nations cities/ states but on many other lands/ really just islands .. it was a political structure of the old world before a catastrophic disaster changed the world as we know it (turtle island), one of many catastrophes ... but God still seems to be working from those every old concepts and political structures. why maybe so we get it hint of what really was to understand better what will be.. . I am not sure why but for 4300 years it was more like his way to all people of the earth , than it was like it is now ..
if Jerusalem is a city/state of a promised land God that called Israel and a promised city/ state to Abraham and someplace there is about to be or there is now 11 more such city/ states ( see promises to Jacob's sons/ Jacobs troubles) and rev.. woman with the stars) ) of that sort of political structure in/on other nations lands...like Israel's consulates sort of .

Although his land ( Zion) though still is missing in action ( sort of ) and maybe some of that kind of stuff just might get clearer to all of us during the tribulation .. and the rest of that you will have to find yourself..

now I haven't decided if true history is hidden history for a good reason or two or not . I mean was it God or the enemy who made it hidden ? right now I don't know. right now I think enemy of God ! but God is hiding stuff too.. " seal up" and don't talk now..
but it is up to us as individuals to study, and follow his spirit to him and really to all truth .. and to show ourselves approved lacking nothing..

I am not saying I understand it all in context of prophesy just yet.. I don't . I just understand or have a very unique understanding of history. and I know that understanding has helped me some with understanding at least part of his promises.
so now I am thinking that if Judah/ Jeru---salem is just one such city/ state,, BUT it is the KINGs clan/ or city /state. a token deposit on a promise to Abraham of way more to come .. . and that makes it so very important and even foundational to the nationhood of Israel/ the whole land/political structures(Jerusalem, new Jerusalem , Ezekial's Jerusalem. etc . ) and all of which God called it Israel / to Jacob's line/family . which just might not all be just south of Lebanon and north of Egypt only ! but it is the KING of the universe and creator of the world's city state..
and the world better back up!
so here is kind of a hint that has helped me a little bit , in the old ages the actual lands of a tribe.. were owned by the ladies usually .. you could find the lands of the nations/ owners/ tribes of the sons of Noah.. because they sometimes had Queens alone that could rule over them... now the political structures and the businesses Owners of businesses / were called the baals( just means owners) and male tribes owned them .. they were at one time just ancestors/ sons and grandsons of Noah , who were given inheritances in the world . these who were the owners of the political structures/ clans / tribes etc that they built around the world each had lands and political structures for trade and work etc..


so then REV..... this could make a bit more sense.
when he says

I saw a woman clothed with the sun ... twelve stars over her head. now that can get more interesting I suspect . this is hinting at something huge ..

and so maybe terms like "daughters of zion" might be a very very interesting concept to think about , I am having a hard time understanding exactly what Zion is.. but i'm working on it..


now that I confused stuff really well..
I hope that gives you some clues about history to aid you in your search for him and his wisdom.

 

[Biblewriter]

I don't know, seems a bit unfair, God is going to condemn all Jews for the last 2000 years to hell, but save a small group from the 21st century only??


Not saying that isn't correct, but its not the God Ive come to know and have a relationship with in Jesus Christ.

Way I see it, the Jews have been living by faith alone for 2000 years with no way to practice the mosaic covenant.

In fact, when the Jews do restart the practices of the mosaic covenant, I believe Daniels final week will begin, as a result.

God is NOT going to condemn all Jews for the last 2000 years to Hell. That's hate-filled, ridiculous, ignorant nonsense.

This subject is developed at length in the first chapters of the epistle to the Romans. In chapter 1 we find God's severe and complete condemnation of the wicked. In chapter 2 it goes on to His still greater condemnation of the self-righteous. Then chapter 3 takes up the special case of the Jew, saying, "What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:" (Romans 3:9-10)

So all mankind has already been condemned. The Jews seek to be justified by the law, but God says, "by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin." (Romans 3:20)

Then chapter 4 brings justification by faith, giving the example of Abraham and concluding with the words, "Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. (Romans 4:23-25)

The sole message of salvation is, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved." (Acts 16:31)

Jesus made it very clear when he said "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)

And other scriptures carry forth this unflinching message:

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)

"For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation." (Hebrews 2:2-3)

For those who neglect the salvation offered through our Lord Jesus Christ, there is no escape. For God "will by no means clear the guilty." (Exodus 34:7)

 

[Shocker]

God has already condemned all mankind to hell, but has offered a pardon to all who trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. "10 As it is written: 'There is none righteous, no, not one.'" (Romans 3:10)


The Jews seek to be justified by the law, but God says, "by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin." (Romans 3:20)


The solution is very simple.

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." (Acts 16:31)

But warning are attached to this simple solution:

"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)

"For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him," (Hebrews 2:2-3)

So essentially you believe that every Jew who never confessed Christ, for the last 2000 years, is in hell, correct?

And that God is going to save the ones that just happened to be at the end of the line even though they believe the same thing.

Sound about right?

 

[Douggg]

Isaiah 66:15-20 clearly shows that the return of all Israel will be after, not before, the Lord comes "with fire, to render His anger with fury, and His rebuke with flames of fire."

James, it does not say "all Israel" in the text. All Israel is the12 tribes, not each Jew in the world. In Matthew 24:31, after Jesus returns the Jews remaining the nations be returned to Israel, and live in their designated lands according to whatever tribe they belong to.

 

[Interplanner]

Doug check the grammar of the last sentence above

 

[Biblewriter]

James, it does not say "all Israel" in the text. All Israel is the12 tribes, not each Jew in the world. In Matthew 24:31, after Jesus returns the Jews remaining the nations be returned to Israel, and live in their designated lands according to whatever tribe they belong to.

You are right. it does not say "all Israel" there, it only says "all your brethren." Please explain the difference.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Absolutely wondrous and again an excellent read for anyone interested in these things which shall be hereafter..

What also caught my attention was the Lord's judgment pronounced upon those who would rejoice in their destruction and captivity... it reminded me instantly of how many are today.. even basing their entire theology upon the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70..

Anyway keep this at the top of the list..

Okie dokie

Luke 21:24
And they shall be falling to mouth of sword and they shall be being led captive into all the nations.
And Jerusalem shall be being trodden by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.
[Reve 11:2/13:10]

Reve 13:10
If any to-captivity, into captivity is going away. If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed. Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints.
[Luke 21:24]

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND, to which must be added, above TWO-HUNDRED AND THIRTY-SEVEN THOUSAND who perished in other places, and innumerable multitudes who were swept away by famine, and pestilence, and of which no calculation could be made. Not less than two thousand laid violent hands upon themselves.
Of the captives the whole was about NINETY-SEVEN THOUSAND.

Of the Two great leaders of the Jews, who had both been made prisoners, John was doomed to a dungeon for life ; while Simon, together with John, in triumph at Rome was scourged, and put to death as a malefactor.


.

 

[ebedmelech]

James, it does not say "all Israel" in the text. All Israel is the12 tribes, not each Jew in the world. In Matthew 24:31, after Jesus returns the Jews remaining the nations be returned to Israel, and live in their designated lands according to whatever tribe they belong to.

Is it not James that utters in Acts 15:13 -19 that God CHOSE from the the Gentiles? He even says they are the "tent of David".

So what James is doing in his epistle, is equating the church as Israel, which includes all who come to Christ.

When you read James 2...it's inescapable as James makes the point of not being partial.

James is not just speaking to 12 tribes that are Jews, he's speaking to those who are the fulness of Christ, which John calles the 144,000 sealed.

 

[Biblewriter]

Is it not James that utters in Acts 15:13 -19 that God CHOSE from the the Gentiles? He even says they are the "tent of David".

So what James is doing in his epistle, is equating the church as Israel, which includes all who come to Christ.

When you read James 2...it's inescapable as James makes the point of not being partial.

James is not just speaking to 12 tribes that are Jews, he's speaking to those who are the fulness of Christ, which John calles the 144,000 sealed.

That is not even so much as an approximate rendering of what James said in this passage. The truth is that James was saying the very opposite of what you are claiming.

He most absolutely did not call the Gentiles "the tent of David. What he said was, "Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written: 'After this I will return And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins, And I will set it up; So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD, Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, Says the LORD who does all these things.'" (Acts 15:14-17)

The gentiles were not here called "tabernacle of David" (or "tent" in other translations.) Rather, James said that the tabernacle of David was set up "so that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord."

This is just another example of how those who deny the restoration of Israel continually wrest the New Testament scriptures to mean things it does not actually say, using this as an excuse to deny many other scriptures that actually say what these people claim they could not mean,

 

[Keachian]

That is not even so much as an approximate rendering of what James said in this passage. The truth is that James was saying the very opposite of what you are claiming.

He most absolutely did not call the Gentiles "the tent of David. What he said was, "Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written: 'After this I will return And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins, And I will set it up; So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD, Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, Says the LORD who does all these things.'" (Acts 15:14-17)

The gentiles were not here called "tabernacle of David" (or "tent" in other translations.) Rather, James said that the tabernacle of David was set up "so that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord."

This is just another example of how those who deny the restoration of Israel continually wrest the New Testament scriptures to mean things it does not actually say, using this as an excuse to deny many other scriptures that actually say what these people claim they could not mean,

The problem with your interpretation is that you are denying the Church to be the People for his Name, every time you say that the Church is not Israel you deny this, God has one people made up of Jews and Gentiles, there will not be a return to a covenant people that is only Jews, if they are willing to give up their pride and fall to the feet of Christ in repentance then they will join the Church, outside of Christ there is no salvation, there is no coming wholesale restoration of the Old Covenant because behold the new has come and with every fibre of your being you are denying that because you are too invested to see the glory of the Son of God repent and believe!

 

[Biblewriter]

The problem with your interpretation is that you are denying the Church to be the People for his Name, every time you say that the Church is not Israel you deny this, God has one people made up of Jews and Gentiles, there will not be a return to a covenant people that is only Jews, if they are willing to give up their pride and fall to the feet of Christ in repentance then they will join the Church, outside of Christ there is no salvation, there is no coming wholesale restoration of the Old Covenant because behold the new has come and with every fibre of your being you are denying that because you are too invested to see the glory of the Son of God repent and believe!

If it is true that the church is Israel, then why doesn't even one scripture distinctly state it? You have to resort to claiming that such-and-such a statement "means" that, because not even one of them actually says it.

The Bible states that the nation of Israel will be restored, in so many places, and in such clear language, that it is simple unbelief to deny it.

But it does not say that they will be restored under the Old Covenant, it says it will be under the New Covenant. (Jeremiah 31) Nor does it say they will be restored in unbelief. It distinctly states (Ezekiel 20) that all the rebels will be purged out from their midst, and it just as distinctly states that all the rest of them will repent. (Zechariah 12)

 

[Keachian]

If it is true that the church is Israel, then why doesn't even one scripture distinctly state it? You have to resort to claiming that such-and-such a statement "means" that, because not even one of them actually says it.

The Bible states that the nation of Israel will be restored, in so many places, and in such clear language, that it is simple unbelief to deny it.

But it does not say that they will be restored under the Old Covenant, it says it will be under the New Covenant. (Jeremiah 31) Nor does it say they will be restored in unbelief. It distinctly states (Ezekiel 20) that all the rebels will be purged out from their midst, and it just as distinctly states that all the rest of them will repent. (Zechariah 12)

Why did the Apostles evangelise among the Jews? Why does Luke make the case for the Church being the proper expression of Judaism in Luke-Acts as a political/religious propaganda piece? Why does the Writer of Hebrews say that the New Covenant has been wrought in Christ's blood for the Church and applies Jer 31 to the Church? If we can't say that Hebrews is for us then we cannot claim the redemption under Christ's blood and we are without hope in the world.

 

[Old Timer]

If it is true that the church is Israel, then why doesn't even one scripture distinctly state it? You have to resort to claiming that such-and-such a statement "means" that, because not even one of them actually says it.

The Bible states that the nation of Israel will be restored, in so many places, and in such clear language, that it is simple unbelief to deny it.

But it does not say that they will be restored under the Old Covenant, it says it will be under the New Covenant. (Jeremiah 31) Nor does it say they will be restored in unbelief. It distinctly states (Ezekiel 20) that all the rebels will be purged out from their midst, and it just as distinctly states that all the rest of them will repent. (Zechariah 12)

If I keep asking 'why' it is so important for men to believe that the church is Israel... the most likely scenario in my mind is that this opens the door to spiritualizing the future, into the past and present.

It allows the truth of the end times to be super spiritualized into the here and now rather than the hereafter..

If the church is Israel..

Even while the true Israel is right in front of every man woman and child with eyes to see.