A Catholic's UNDERSTANDING of Purgatory ... straight up ...

[AHJE]

It is not a place for second chances to be saved.
It does not negate the sufficiency of Jesus' Atoning Sacrifice.
It is not a scary place filled with demons.

In fact, Purgatory is for the SAVED and for the SAVED ONLY.
Everyone who makes it to Purgatory will eventually and ultimately end up in Heaven.

The word 'Purgatory' is associated with the verb TO PURGE or TO PURIFY.

(1) The bottom line is this: NOTHING UNCLEAN/IMPURE can enter the Kingdom of Heaven. One needs to be PERFECTLY purified in order to enter Heaven.

(2) One is purified by the Precious Blood of Jesus. The question is ... HOW IS THIS WORKED OUT IN THE LIFE OF EACH BELIEVER? How is the Blood of Christ applied in your life and in mine? By what means do we share in the fruits of Redemption (the effects of Redemption) merited by our Blessed Lord by His Passover Mystery (His Death and Resurrection/Glorification)?

(3) The Chief way that we share in the fruits of Redemption is through the Sacraments instituted by Christ Himself. Such as Holy Baptism, Holy Communion, Holy Confirmation, etc. (There are 7 of them). A Sacrament is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace. (It is not merely an external ritual without power). Another great means of grace is PRAYER (lifting up your mind and heart to God).

(4) In Holy Baptism, called the Sacrament of Faith, the grace of Justification is conferred upon the recipient. In reality, it is Jesus WHO Baptizes through the Minister. Justification is not merely a legal declaration that you are acquitted as in a law court. We are not dung hills covered with snow. It goes much deeper than that. Rather, Justification entails the interior renewal and sanctification of the inner man unto the rectitude of Divine Love. Holy Baptism now saves you.

(5) Holy Baptism remits all sin and punishments due to sin. This is unique to this Sacrament. Jesus died once and for all and we also confess that there is ONE Baptism for the full remission of sins and their consequences.

(6) There are two major kinds of sin, Original Sin (of Adam and Eve) and Actual Sin (Personal Sin).

(7) There are two kinds of Actual Sin: Mortal Sin (which kills the life of grace in the soul, crucifying the Lord anew in your heart) and Venial Sin (which may make you spiritually ill but does not kill the moral life of the soul). In order for a sin to be Mortal, three conditions must be met together: (1) Serious/grave matter in violation of God's Commandments, (2) Full Knowledge, and (3) Full Consent of the Will.

(8) There is a double consequence to sin. Eternal Punishment and Temporal Punishment due to sin. A foreshadowing of temporal punishment is when God forgave David his sin and did not doom him to death, yet David's son did die and the sword did not depart from David's household (again, eventhough God had forgiven David the guilt of his sins). This is all in keeping with the Divine Justice of God. Consider temporal punishment as the Fatherly Discipline of the Lord.

(9) There is ordered to the Sacrament of Holy Baptism a full remission of both Eternal and Temporal Punishments due to sin. Theoretically, if one died after being born again of water and the Spirit through Baptism one is perfectly ready to enter into the Kingdom of God. So great is the Sacrament of Holy Baptism by which we enter into the Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ our Lord.

(10) There is just one problem. Not everyone perseveres in that state of Baptismal Innocence. People often backslide and commit Mortal Sin. They fall and rise again, ... fall and rise again, ... fall and rise again. (This is called the path of Penance). So there are two paths that a Born Again may take: (1) The Path of Baptismal Innocence (which is very very very very very RARE) or (2) The Path of Penance (which is much more common).

(11) Jesus knew that many of the faithful would not remain in their Baptismal Innocence, and in His Infinite Mercy, He has provided the Sacrament of Penance (also known as Confession). It is similar to Holy Baptism in that it remits the guilt of Eternal Punishment (you don't have to go to Hell) BUT! ... it is distinct from Holy Baptism in that it does not necessarily remit the fullness of all TEMPORAL PUNISHMENTS due to sin (which need to be satisfied for either in this life or in Purgatory).
God requires temporal punishments so that we may make satisfaction to His Justice and so that we may know the great evil and horror of sin. God does not treat us as bastards, but rather as sons (born again by the grace of adoption).

(12) We may make satisfaction through acts of penance. For example, doing good deeds like praying, fasting, and almsgiving. (DONE IN A STATE OF GRACE of course). Charity covers a multitude of sins.

(13) God has willed to give man a participation in the Divine Mission of His Son. As sharers with Christ (who Merited for us every grace by His Passion and Cross) we, IF WE SAY YES TO THE GRACE OF GOD AT WORK IN US, may obtain secondary merit due to our collaboration with God. He who suffers with Christ shall be exalted together with Him. The Saints, who have done the Will of the Father throughout the ages, have shown us what this means. For by their UNION with Christ they have become victors with Him. And as such Jesus "divides", as it were, the spoils among the mighty.
And among the Saints, ... who is holier than the Immaculate Mother of God? Who is holier than Mary among the Saints? There is none. Indeed there are degrees of glory in Heaven.

(14) The Infinite Merits of Jesus Christ and the superabundant merits of the All-Holy Mary and all the Communion of Saints may be applied to our souls by the power of the Keys entrusted by Christ to St. Peter, the visible Head of the Church. By this power to bind and loose, the Church has the power and authority to grant either partial remittance of temporal punishments due to sin OR even FULL remittance of temporal punishments due to sin. This is like going to a vault and beholding within it all the jewels and rubies and gold and diamonds which are the treasury of merits of all the Saints and of the Blessed Virgin Mary (and of course the infinite Merits of Jesus Christ) and having the power to apply these merits to remit your temporal punishments and make satisfaction to the Justice of God. This power and authority the Church has and this gift is called an INDULGENCE.
Think of how the faith of the Roman Centurion was sufficient to heal his servant, who was far away, before Christ!

(15) Other ways of making satisfaction to God's Justice is by patient bearing of your cross and sufferings in this life and uniting your sufferings to that of Jesus and Him Crucified. Also by participating in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and partaking of the True Lord's Supper and receiving the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity, of our Savior Jesus Christ. Also by living a life of Faith, Hope, and Charity.

(16) God will hold us accountable for every thought, word, and deed, or omission (what we have failed to do). And we will not be let out of prison until we have paid the last penny. God is not mocked. Yet, it must be remembered that Justice is the servant of Mercy. Mercy triumphs over Justice. God is slow to anger and abounding and rich in Mercy and Kindness. He is full of compassion and if He were not so, He would not have created a Purgatory for those of His friends who die still imperfect with respect to love.

(17) In Purgatory, one suffers the pain of loss (of not entering into the Beatific Vision of God immediately) and also the pain of sense (due to the remains of their sins to which they are attached to). Yet in Purgatory there is a perfect HOPE for the soul KNOWS that eventually he/she will see God face to face. And even if they were allowed to enter immediately into Heaven they would NOT dare enter in. They are full of remorse for their sins and all of their missed opportunities of saying YES to Grace that they willingly desire to complete their stay in Purgatory until they are purged.
And none of this occurs apart from the BLOOD of Jesus.

(18) There is a big difference between those who suffer in Purgatory and those FAITHFUL who suffer on earth. Those who suffer in Purgatory gain NO MERIT while those who suffer on earth BY THE GRACE OF GOD do gain merit. And the sufferings of this life cannot be compared to the acute suffering of the poor souls in Purgatory. The Church ceaselessly prays for our departed brothers and sisters in Purgatory. In fact, it is one of the spiritual works of Mercy to do so. Have you fulfilled this call of Jesus in your life? Do you pray for your loved ones who have died? Do you pray for the poor souls suffering in Purgatory?

Peace be with all.


A. H. J. E.
After the Heart of Jesus Evangelist

 

[GarySneakers]

So lets test it. Go to Mark 15:38 There you will find the Open Temple of the Father in Heaven. "Go In".

Take all your 18 points and slam into the portal. Hope you make it in.

As with Purgatory, enjoy the fire. You get out tomorrow.

Open Temple, means Open Temple, Anyone can come unto the Father in Heaven.

 

[AHJE]

Dear GarySneakers,

Peace be with you,

YOU WROTE:

So lets test it. Go to Mark 15:38 There you will find the Open Temple of the Father in Heaven. "Go In".

Commentary on the related St. Matthew 27:51:
_____________________________________________________ [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]
" Ver. 51.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif] The veil of the temple was rent. As there were in the temple two parts of the sanctuary, so there were two veils, or partition walls. The first sanctuary, called the holy, was separated by a veil from that part of the temple called the court of the Israelites. Into this outward sanctuary, called the holy, entered every day the priests that were in office. The second interior sanctuary, called the holy of holies, was also separated from the outward sanctuary by another veil. And into this holy of holies, no one was to enter except the high priest, and he but once a-year. Both these veils seem to have been rent at Christ's death: and by their being broken down, was signified first, that the ceremonies of the ancient law were to be abolished by the law of Christ; and also that heaven should be open to all." [/FONT][/FONT]
____________________________________________________
[Haydock Commentary, BTW its free online]

Another related Scripture, I believe, is the following:

"And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him." (St. Matthew 3:16, DRB)

What does this connection with the Baptism of the Lord mean to you?

Take all your 18 points and slam into the portal. Hope you make it in.

What portal? These eighteen points I gather from the very Teaching of Christ.

As with Purgatory, enjoy the fire. You get out tomorrow.

You mean you don't accept the possibility that you yourself will have to be purified before entering the Kingdom. Good for you, ... you must be a great Saint. (If not, ... you are in for a big surprise to say the least.)

Open Temple, means Open Temple, Anyone can come unto the Father in Heaven.

Yes, through the Son, by the means He has given, ... just as anyone can fully embrace the path of Baptismal Innocence by all of the graces that God generously gives. But, unfortunately, many do not.

I never said it was impossible, with Christ, to go immediately into Heaven. I just think that it is very few souls that actually do. Besides, Purgatory is like the antechamber of Heaven, and the souls therein shall enter Heaven eventually.

God bless you.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I appreciate the title of this thread, because it accurately describes the OP. This is not The Catholic Understanding of Purgatory - Straight Up, but is the understanding of a Catholic among millions of Catholics with various understandings, many of which are similar, if not identical, to this one.

The difficulty, of course, is that the Catechism of the Catholic Church skirts the entire doctrine of Purgatory, lightly alluding to it in places, but never systematically codifying it as here. That leaves sincere Catholics with precious little upon which they can base their belief. The alternative might be the Bible, but it is even less helpful than the Catechism because one must read into various passages thoughts that are not consistent with the context of those passages.

I will make a few comments on these personal thoughts, in blue, as follow:

It is not a place for second chances to be saved.
It does not negate the sufficiency of Jesus' Atoning Sacrifice.
It is not a scary place filled with demons.

In fact, Purgatory is for the SAVED and for the SAVED ONLY.
Everyone who makes it to Purgatory will eventually and ultimately end up in Heaven.

The word 'Purgatory' is associated with the verb TO PURGE or TO PURIFY.

(1) The bottom line is this: NOTHING UNCLEAN/IMPURE can enter the Kingdom of Heaven. One needs to be PERFECTLY purified in order to enter Heaven.

Corollary #1 to the bottom line is that God is either unwilling or unable to perfectly forgive His people and is dependent upon them to purify themselves in Purgatory.

(2) One is purified by the Precious Blood of Jesus. The question is ... HOW IS THIS WORKED OUT IN THE LIFE OF EACH BELIEVER? How is the Blood of Christ applied in your life and in mine? By what means do we share in the fruits of Redemption (the effects of Redemption) merited by our Blessed Lord by His Passover Mystery (His Death and Resurrection/Glorification)?

Corollary #2. The Precious Blood of Jesus is essential to purification.

(3) The Chief way that we share in the fruits of Redemption is through the Sacraments instituted by Christ Himself. Such as Holy Baptism, Holy Communion, Holy Confirmation, etc. (There are 7 of them). A Sacrament is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace. (It is not merely an external ritual without power). Another great means of grace is PRAYER (lifting up your mind and heart to God).

Corollary #3. The Precious Blood of Jesus is primarily engaged through the seven Sacraments of the Catholic Church. These Sacraments give grace, in and of themselves. In addition to the Seven Sacraments we have Prayer, which is not a Sacrament, but is a means of grace in and of itself.

(4) In Holy Baptism, called the Sacrament of Faith, the grace of Justification is conferred upon the recipient. In reality, it is Jesus WHO Baptizes through the Minister. Justification is not merely a legal declaration that you are acquitted as in a law court. We are not dung hills covered with snow. It goes much deeper than that. Rather, Justification entails the interior renewal and sanctification of the inner man unto the rectitude of Divine Love. Holy Baptism now saves you.

The Sacrament of Baptism justifies and saves a person (at least temporarily, but not as a permanent thing, as will be seen).

(5) Holy Baptism remits all sin and punishments due to sin. This is unique to this Sacrament. Jesus died once and for all and we also confess that there is ONE Baptism for the full remission of sins and their consequences.

Holy Baptism remits all and sin and punishments due to sin up until the moment of baptism. Post-baptism other means are required for remittance of sin, as will be seen.

(6) There are two major kinds of sin, Original Sin (of Adam and Eve) and Actual Sin (Personal Sin).

There are two major kinds of sin - Original and Actual. Original sin is not actual and Actual sin is not original. There are also minor kinds of sin, but they are not mentioned here.

(7) There are two kinds of Actual Sin: Mortal Sin (which kills the life of grace in the soul, crucifying the Lord anew in your heart) and Venial Sin (which may make you spiritually ill but does not kill the moral life of the soul). In order for a sin to be Mortal, three conditions must be met together: (1) Serious/grave matter in violation of God's Commandments, (2) Full Knowledge, and (3) Full Consent of the Will.

Mortal sin is pretty heavy stuff, such as masturbation, but venial sin is not so bad, like daydreaming about sex.

(8) There is a double consequence to sin. Eternal Punishment and Temporal Punishment due to sin. A foreshadowing of temporal punishment is when God forgave David his sin and did not doom him to death, yet David's son did die and the sword did not depart from David's household (again, eventhough God had forgiven David the guilt of his sins). This is all in keeping with the Divine Justice of God. Consider temporal punishment as the Fatherly Discipline of the Lord.

Temporal punishment is what God metes out to you during your life as a consequence of your sin, as in the case of King David. Or, to provide another example, lung cancer as a result of smoking.

(9) There is ordered to the Sacrament of Holy Baptism a full remission of both Eternal and Temporal Punishments due to sin. Theoretically, if one died after being born again of water and the Spirit through Baptism one is perfectly ready to enter into the Kingdom of God. So great is the Sacrament of Holy Baptism by which we enter into the Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ our Lord.

Actually, everyone who is baptized dies after being baptized. Some die sooner after their baptism than others, but all die in due time. The point being made here seems to be that one needs to expire immediately after baptism in water to be perfectly ready to enter into heaven. Thus, it would be well if the priest or parents of the little tyke being baptized snuffed him out ASAP and spared him untold suffering in Purgatory.

(10) There is just one problem. Not everyone perseveres in that state of Baptismal Innocence. People often backslide and commit Mortal Sin. They fall and rise again, ... fall and rise again, ... fall and rise again. (This is called the path of Penance). So there are two paths that a Born Again may take: (1) The Path of Baptismal Innocence (which is very very very very very RARE) or (2) The Path of Penance (which is much more common).

The problem in Catholic theology is that virtually nobody perserveres in a state of Baptismal Innocence, except those who expire immediately following the rite. So, for the rest of the lot, Penance and lots of it is required. Even then, nothing resembling a state of Baptismal Innocence is restored.

(11) Jesus knew that many of the faithful would not remain in their Baptismal Innocence, and in His Infinite Mercy, He has provided the Sacrament of Penance (also known as Confession). It is similar to Holy Baptism in that it remits the guilt of Eternal Punishment (you don't have to go to Hell) BUT! ... it is distinct from Holy Baptism in that it does not necessarily remit the fullness of all TEMPORAL PUNISHMENTS due to sin (which need to be satisfied for either in this life or in Purgatory).
God requires temporal punishments so that we may make satisfaction to His Justice and so that we may know the great evil and horror of sin. God does not treat us as bastards, but rather as sons (born again by the grace of adoption).

Now we come to Penance (aka Confession). Here we learn that God, indeed either cannot or will not forgive His people freely, but requires them to earn their forgiveness. Such is His unfathomable love for His people that he treats them worse than bastards (who, BTW, never have to do penance). However, bastards, being bastards, end up in Hell, which is really quite a bit worse than Penance, so it is probably a good thing that God cannot or will not forgive His people freely.

(12) We may make satisfaction through acts of penance. For example, doing good deeds like praying, fasting, and almsgiving. (DONE IN A STATE OF GRACE of course). Charity covers a multitude of sins.

Charity covers a multitude of sins, but apparently not all sins and it certainly does not seem to forgive any of them entirely. We see here that various meritorious deeds must be performed (IN A STATE OF GRACE (whatever that might mean)) to satisfy this angry God.

(13) God has willed to give man a participation in the Divine Mission of His Son. As sharers with Christ (who Merited for us every grace by His Passion and Cross) we, IF WE SAY YES TO THE GRACE OF GOD AT WORK IN US, may obtain secondary merit due to our collaboration with God. He who suffers with Christ shall be exalted together with Him. The Saints, who have done the Will of the Father throughout the ages, have shown us what this means. For by their UNION with Christ they have become victors with Him. And as such Jesus "divides", as it were, the spoils among the mighty.
And among the Saints, ... who is holier than the Immaculate Mother of God? Who is holier than Mary among the Saints? There is none. Indeed there are degrees of glory in Heaven.

God cannot or will not forgive His people unless they say, "YES TO THE GRACE OF GOD AT WORK IN US." God is utterly impotent to forgive anyone without their participation and collaboration with Him.

The Saints (not to be confused with the professional sports team in New Orleans, Louisiana) throughout the ages have participated and collaborated with Him, apparently to His satisfaction. Mary did it best of all of them, although she never was baptized. However, she did not need to be baptized because she never had Original sin or Actual sin, so it is hardly fair to compare her with the rest of us mere mortals who have Original and Actual sin.

(14) The Infinite Merits of Jesus Christ and the superabundant merits of the All-Holy Mary and all the Communion of Saints may be applied to our souls by the power of the Keys entrusted by Christ to St. Peter, the visible Head of the Church. By this power to bind and loose, the Church has the power and authority to grant either partial remittance of temporal punishments due to sin OR even FULL remittance of temporal punishments due to sin. This is like going to a vault and beholding within it all the jewels and rubies and gold and diamonds which are the treasury of merits of all the Saints and of the Blessed Virgin Mary (and of course the infinite Merits of Jesus Christ) and having the power to apply these merits to remit your temporal punishments and make satisfaction to the Justice of God. This power and authority the Church has and this gift is called an INDULGENCE.
Think of how the faith of the Roman Centurion was sufficient to heal his servant, who was far away, before Christ!

If the merits of Jesus Christ are infinite (without beginning or end, immeasurable, vaster than our universe) then it seems rather superfluous for God to require additional merits. However, as we have seen, God cannot or will not forgive His people. In this case God requires the application of merits for forgiveness, but the merits of Jesus Christ are either inadequate, finite, or self-contained, so that the good merits of God's creatures must be called upon to make up the difference. God, then, cannot or will not, directly administer these merits, but decided to give the work of administration to some chap in Rome, assisted by a large buraucracy. These merits are invisible, so we must take the word of the chap in Rome that he is doing his job properly. It is a very Sispyhean task IMO to have to do this not only for all the living Catholics around the planet, but for all of the dead ones suffering Purgatory. It is a great pity that the merits of Jesus Christ are so utterly inadequate for the task.

(15) Other ways of making satisfaction to God's Justice is by patient bearing of your cross and sufferings in this life and uniting your sufferings to that of Jesus and Him Crucified. Also by participating in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and partaking of the True Lord's Supper and receiving the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity, of our Savior Jesus Christ. Also by living a life of Faith, Hope, and Charity.

Here we have the Sacrament of the Mass reiterated in addition to living a life of suffering, faith, hope and charity. If you do enough of this you might help ease the punishment of your Temporal Sins in Purgatory.

(16) God will hold us accountable for every thought, word, and deed, or omission (what we have failed to do). And we will not be let out of prison until we have paid the last penny. God is not mocked. Yet, it must be remembered that Justice is the servant of Mercy. Mercy triumphs over Justice. God is slow to anger and abounding and rich in Mercy and Kindness. He is full of compassion and if He were not so, He would not have created a Purgatory for those of His friends who die still imperfect with respect to love.

God sends His children to a sort of debtors prison where He expects them to cough up every last penny of a debt amount to a sum much larger than the U.S. national debt. How He expects His children to do that is open to question. In Purgatory there are probably none of the Seven Sacraments (certainly not Marriage) so we can eliminate that as a means of payment. There is no money, earthly or heavenly, so that makes it really, really, difficult unless you take that adage, "Time is money" literally. Purgatory seems to have plenty of time. That also leaves suffering, faith, hope and charity. In the bad old days, suffering seemed to be the big item of payment in Purgatory, but in our present enlightened state, a lot of Catholics have dispensed with the suffering aspect. That leave the merits of Jesus Christ and the saints which, very nicely, can be provided to those folks through the kindness of friends and family on earth, although God seems to be quite unwilling to do so, being Justice personified, and not Love.

(17) In Purgatory, one suffers the pain of loss (of not entering into the Beatific Vision of God immediately) and also the pain of sense (due to the remains of their sins to which they are attached to). Yet in Purgatory there is a perfect HOPE for the soul KNOWS that eventually he/she will see God face to face. And even if they were allowed to enter immediately into Heaven they would NOT dare enter in. They are full of remorse for their sins and all of their missed opportunities of saying YES to Grace that they willingly desire to complete their stay in Purgatory until they are purged.
And none of this occurs apart from the BLOOD of Jesus.

Folks in Purgatory actually prefer being there to being in Heaven, because they are so utterly unworthy of Heaven that they must accrue enough merit so that they can enter with a clean conscience. People in Purgatory are wonderful masochists. They really do enjoy their suffering because, as they say, no pain no gain.

(18) There is a big difference between those who suffer in Purgatory and those FAITHFUL who suffer on earth. Those who suffer in Purgatory gain NO MERIT while those who suffer on earth BY THE GRACE OF GOD do gain merit. And the sufferings of this life cannot be compared to the acute suffering of the poor souls in Purgatory. The Church ceaselessly prays for our departed brothers and sisters in Purgatory. In fact, it is one of the spiritual works of Mercy to do so. Have you fulfilled this call of Jesus in your life? Do you pray for your loved ones who have died? Do you pray for the poor souls suffering in Purgatory?

If these folks in Purgatory are actually enjoying their suffering, but not getting any MERIT from it, then they will be there a really, really, really long time - that is, if God cannot release them from Purgatory until they have accrued the last penny of MERIT that is required.

However, we folks on earth have the opportunity to shorten their suffering for them by doing spiritual works of Mercy of which one is to pray them out of Purgatory. So, it is incumbent upon us to do the work that will save these poor souls from the punishment due to them for their temporal sins. In the meantime God sits in His Heaven, unwilling or unable to forgive His people.

Peace be with all.


A. H. J. E.
After the Heart of Jesus Evangelist

 

[AHJE]

Dear bbbbbbb,

Peace be with you,

YOU WROTE:

I appreciate the title of this thread, because it accurately describes the OP. This is not The Catholic Understanding of Purgatory - Straight Up, but is the understanding of a Catholic among millions of Catholics with various understandings, many of which are similar, if not identical, to this one.

"A, THE," ... what is the difference? A Catholic usually does not seek to give his own private interpretation anyway, but rather the ONE Teaching of Christ. Everything that I have listed is consistent with the Teaching of our Blessed Lord.

The difficulty, of course, is that the Catechism of the Catholic Church skirts the entire doctrine of Purgatory, lightly alluding to it in places, but never systematically codifying it as here. That leaves sincere Catholics with precious little upon which they can base their belief. The alternative might be the Bible, but it is even less helpful than the Catechism because one must read into various passages thoughts that are not consistent with the context of those passages.

Purgatory, for the faithful, is not complicated at all. The reason why I have listed 18 points is because this Dogma is inextricably tied to many other subjects as well, ... such as justification, Sacraments, sin and its consequences, penance, and so on.

I will make a few comments on these personal thoughts, in blue, as follow:



Corollary #1 to the bottom line is that God is either unwilling or unable to perfectly forgive His people and is dependent upon them to purify themselves in Purgatory.

Excuse me, ... do you have trouble reading? This is not what is written in part (1). Read it again. You are not repeating what I have said. You are misrepresenting my words and you are creating a caricature of them. This is a violation of the 8th Commandment, "Thou shalt not bear false witness".
For it is a sin against truth.

Corollary #2. The Precious Blood of Jesus is essential to purification.

You got that right.

Corollary #3. The Precious Blood of Jesus is primarily engaged through the seven Sacraments of the Catholic Church. These Sacraments give grace, in and of themselves. In addition to the Seven Sacraments we have Prayer, which is not a Sacrament, but is a means of grace in and of itself.

Okay ...

The Sacrament of Baptism justifies and saves a person (at least temporarily, but not as a permanent thing, as will be seen).

Those who persevere in the grace given at Holy Baptism are saved forever.

But, ... it is true that neither Jesus NOR THE BIBLE teaches that erroneous idea that one who is born again (by Baptism of course) is "once saved, always saved". This is a false teaching and a dangerous one which may lead to presumption, a grave sin against the theological virtue of HOPE.

Holy Baptism remits all and sin and punishments due to sin up until the moment of baptism. Post-baptism other means are required for remittance of sin, as will be seen.

Correct.

There are two major kinds of sin - Original and Actual. Original sin is not actual and Actual sin is not original. There are also minor kinds of sin, but they are not mentioned here.

Actual Sin refers to Personal Acts of Sin. These include those minor kinds of sin which are called "Venial Sins".

Original Sin is that sin into which we are born due to the sin of our first parents (Adam and Eve). Hence the word "Original".

Mortal sin is pretty heavy stuff, such as masturbation, but venial sin is not so bad, like daydreaming about sex.

Yes. Heavy enough to kill the moral life of the soul. One who sins mortally spurns the life of grace from the soul and consequently is no longer in a state of sanctifying grace. He himself has, by his mortal sin, separated himself from Jesus Christ, Who IS the True Vine.

Temporal punishment is what God metes out to you during your life as a consequence of your sin, as in the case of King David. Or, to provide another example, lung cancer as a result of smoking.

Sin has its own punishment (that is, by the very nature of the sin itself).
Whoever commits sin becomes a slave to sin.

Actually, everyone who is baptized dies after being baptized. Some die sooner after their baptism than others, but all die in due time. The point being made here seems to be that one needs to expire immediately after baptism in water to be perfectly ready to enter into heaven. Thus, it would be well if the priest or parents of the little tyke being baptized snuffed him out ASAP and spared him untold suffering in Purgatory.

What kind of reasoning is this? Where is the reasoning to begin with?

Did not our Blessed Lord warn people in this manner: "Go and sin no more so that nothing worse may befall you?"

The problem in Catholic theology is that virtually nobody perserveres in a state of Baptismal Innocence, except those who expire immediately following the rite.

There are very holy people who do persevere in Baptismal Innocence. And by the way, those who follow the path of penance may also enter into heaven immediately if they are completely purified and perfected in love at the moment of death. The Saints are a witness to this. Look at St. Augustine. It could be that he was one of them.

So, for the rest of the lot, Penance and lots of it is required. Even then, nothing resembling a state of Baptismal Innocence is restored.

Restoration and healing is possible with God.

Now we come to Penance (aka Confession). Here we learn that God, indeed either cannot or will not forgive His people freely, but requires them to earn their forgiveness.

One IS completely forgiven in the Sacrament of Penance (Confession) and the guilt is removed (and eternal punishment is remitted) ... Do you consider this a small thing?

Such is His unfathomable love for His people that he treats them worse than bastards (who, BTW, never have to do penance). However, bastards, being bastards, end up in Hell, which is really quite a bit worse than Penance, so it is probably a good thing that God cannot or will not forgive His people freely.

God is a Loving Father Who disciplines His children. God requires temporal punishment due to sin. Are you murmuring against the Justice of God?

Charity covers a multitude of sins,

but apparently not all sins and it certainly does not seem to forgive any of them entirely. We see here that various meritorious deeds must be performed (IN A STATE OF GRACE (whatever that might mean)) to satisfy this angry God.

The path of Penance can indeed bring a person, by the grace of God, to eternal life. One who is not in a state of grace (united to the True Vine), CANNOT do ANYTHING apart from Christ. That is to say, he cannot do anything which will merit any heavenly reward while separated from Jesus. He can bear no fruit that endures unto eternal life.

God cannot or will not forgive His people unless they say, "YES TO THE GRACE OF GOD AT WORK IN US." God is utterly impotent to forgive anyone without their participation and collaboration with Him.

The God who created us without us ... WILL NOT SAVE US WITHOUT US. We have the freedom to receive or to reject the grace which comes from Jesus Christ. We must say YES to Grace by the gift of free will given to us by God.

Do not presume to say to yourselves "Abraham is our father, ... and that is enough!" ... You must bring forth the FRUITS of REPENTANCE!

Temporal Punishments due to sin is about making satisfaction to the Justice of God. It is not about seeking forgiveness to avoid hell and eternal condemnation. This is important to understand.

The Saints (not to be confused with the professional sports team in New Orleans, Louisiana) throughout the ages have participated and collaborated with Him, apparently to His satisfaction. Mary did it best of all of them, although she never was baptized. However, she did not need to be baptized because she never had Original sin or Actual sin, so it is hardly fair to compare her with the rest of us mere mortals who have Original and Actual sin.

You seem to understand the essence of what I wrote here.

If the merits of Jesus Christ are infinite (without beginning or end, immeasurable, vaster than our universe) then it seems rather superfluous for God to require additional merits. However, as we have seen, God cannot or will not forgive His people.

Again, one cannot even make it into Purgatory without first being forgiven the guilt of eternal punishment. Otherwise, they would be condemned in Hell forever and ever.

In this case God requires the application of merits for forgiveness, but the merits of Jesus Christ are either inadequate, finite, or self-contained, so that the good merits of God's creatures must be called upon to make up the difference.

Wrong, ... it is not an either/or situation ... it is rather a both/and situation.

God, then, cannot or will not, directly administer these merits, but decided to give the work of administration to some chap in Rome, assisted by a large buraucracy.

This is blasphemy by speaking unworthily of the Vicar of Christ and of the Church. Repent, and believe the Good News.

(to be continued ...)

 

[AHJE]

(... continued)

These merits are invisible, so we must take the word of the .... in Rome that he is doing his job properly. It is a very Sispyhean task IMO to have to do this not only for all the living Catholics around the planet, but for all of the dead ones suffering Purgatory. It is a great pity that the merits of Jesus Christ are so utterly inadequate for the task.

You have no idea of what you are speaking about. You are not even trying to understand it seems to me. Seems like you would rather keep your own ideas of ... what can you call it ... PURFAGORY (the false view of the real purgatory) ... so that you will avoid accepting the incontravertible truth of the Dogma of Purgatory.

Here we have the Sacrament of the Mass reiterated in addition to living a life of suffering, faith, hope and charity. If you do enough of this you might help ease the punishment of your Temporal Sins in Purgatory.

There is nothing more efficacious to help the souls in Purgatory than the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. And one on earth is greatly benefited by the most Sublime Worship that exists ... the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass by which we enter into the Love that Jesus has for the Father in His total Self-Giving to Him in Self-Sacrifice. In the Holy Mass we enter into the very Prayer of Jesus Christ, our Great High Priest.

God sends His children to a sort of debtors prison where He expects them to cough up every last penny of a debt amount to a sum much larger than the U.S. national debt.

I was employing the very language which our Blessed Lord used in His Sermon on the Mount. With God all things are possible. And the souls in Purgatory DID die in a state of grace. You seem to forget this all too easily.

How He expects His children to do that is open to question. In Purgatory there are probably none of the Seven Sacraments (certainly not Marriage) so we can eliminate that as a means of payment. There is no money, earthly or heavenly, so that makes it really, really, difficult unless you take that adage, "Time is money" literally. Purgatory seems to have plenty of time. That also leaves suffering, faith, hope and charity. In the bad old days, suffering seemed to be the big item of payment in Purgatory, but in our present enlightened state, a lot of Catholics have dispensed with the suffering aspect.

Absolutely not, ... in fact, the Church calls the souls in Purgatory "The Church Suffering".

Since Purgatory is in another kind of dimension, ... the word that is used is not "time" but rather "DURATION". One year in Purgatory will seem to the soul equivalent to about 70 years on this earth! The sufferings of this earth cannot be compared to the acute and great suffering of the souls in Purgatory. This is why the Church invites us to undertake the path of penance and self-mortification NOW. If you are wise you will see the wisdom of Holy Mother Church. Even St. Paul saw the truth of this.

That leave the merits of Jesus Christ and the saints which, very nicely, can be provided to those folks through the kindness of friends and family on earth, although God seems to be quite unwilling to do so, being Justice personified, and not Love.

God is so merciful that He has created Purgatory for those who die in His Grace. You do not know of what you speak (or write). It is God Who inspires us to pray for the souls in Purgatory and it is the Blood of Jesus, Who descended into the Netherworld, that is applied to these poor souls in Purgatory.

Folks in Purgatory actually prefer being there to being in Heaven, because they are so utterly unworthy of Heaven that they must accrue enough merit so that they can enter with a clean conscience.

Wrong, my friend. These souls gain absolutely NO MERIT in Purgatory. They had the opportunity to suffer with merit on earth. That opportunity has come and gone for them.

People in Purgatory are wonderful masochists. They really do enjoy their suffering because, as they say, no pain no gain.

If you were on your way to a great wedding banquet and you accidentally spilled ketchup on your white shirt... would you not go and get it cleaned before entering into the wedding hall? You would probably refuse to enter in unless you got yourself cleaned. How much more so is this true for the poor souls in Purgatory?

If these folks in Purgatory are actually enjoying their suffering, but not getting any MERIT from it, then they will be there a really, really, really long time - that is, if God cannot release them from Purgatory until they have accrued the last penny of MERIT that is required.

You mean the last penny of SATISFACTION/EXPIATION that is required.

However, we folks on earth have the opportunity to shorten their suffering for them by doing

spiritual works of Mercy of which one is to pray them out of Purgatory. So, it is incumbent upon us to do the work that will save these poor souls from the punishment due to them for their temporal sins. In the meantime God sits in His Heaven, unwilling or unable to forgive His people.

They are already forgiven the guilt of eternal condemnation and YES we can do an awful lot to help these poor suffering souls by praying for them and offering the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass for them. By doing works of penance for them. By obtaining INDULGENCES for them. etc.

God love you.

--AHJE.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Dear bbbbbbb,

Peace be with you,

YOU WROTE:

"A, THE," ... what is the difference? A Catholic usually does not seek to give his own private interpretation anyway, but rather the ONE Teaching of Christ. Everything that I have listed is consistent with the Teaching of our Blessed Lord.

The difference is quite significant. It is between an indefinite article and a definite article. For example, the Jehovah's Witnesses take John 1:1 and insert the indefinite article before "God", so that they read it to say, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was a god." You will admit that the addition of the indefinite article radically alters the meaning of the verse.

In your case, I am perfectly content to understand your OP as being that of a Catholic. You are Catholic and you are representing your understanding of Catholic teaching on this doctrine. You have not repeated official Catholic teaching on the doctrine as provided in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, but have gone beyond what is stated in the Catechism in an effort to explain the doctrine. You are not the first to have done so, nor, I suppose, you will be the last. Your explanation fits nicely within the spectrum of explanations, some of which are very mild in their explanations and some of which are very severe in describing the torture of souls in Purgatory. None of these, including your own, diverges from the bare bones given in the Catechism and none can honestly state that this is the official teaching of the Catholic Church on the matter. Your understanding is, indeed, consistent with the teaching of the Catholic Church, although many, including myself, would heartily disagree with your assertion that it is consistent with the teaching of our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ, unless you understand your Lord to be the Catholic Church and its Magesterium.

Purgatory, for the faithful, is not complicated at all. The reason why I have listed 18 points is because this Dogma is inextricably tied to many other subjects as well, ... such as justification, Sacraments, sin and its consequences, penance, and so on.

I agree entirely. Unlike Limbo, which is not part and parcel of Catholic doctrine, Purgatory is an essential aspect, upon which other doctrines depend.

Excuse me, ... do you have trouble reading? This is not what is written in part (1). Read it again. You are not repeating what I have said. You are misrepresenting my words and you are creating a caricature of them. This is a violation of the 8th Commandment, "Thou shalt not bear false witness".

For it is a sin against truth.

Actually, I did not misstate your position completely. I merely posited that, based upon your statement, either God is unwilling or unable to provide complete forgiveness of sins and, therefore, requires payment for some sins. Your yourself say, later in this post, "The God who created us without us ... WILL NOT SAVE US WITHOUT US." You have made it very clear that although God can forgive us our sins and can save us, it is not His will to do so. Hence, he is unwilling to forgive us apart from our own works and merits, or those of others on our behalf, but not those of Jesus Christ.

Those who persevere in the grace given at Holy Baptism are saved forever.

This is an interesting variant of OSAS. Baptism, in your view, provides salvation, but this salvation is entirely conditioned upon perserverance. However, I think you will agree that you believe that those who do not perservere do end up in heaven, albeit via Purgatory. The alternative, of course, is that those who do not perservere end up in hell. I doubt very much that you believe that.

But, ... it is true that neither Jesus NOR THE BIBLE teaches that erroneous idea that one who is born again (by Baptism of course) is "once saved, always saved". This is a false teaching and a dangerous one which may lead to presumption, a grave sin against the theological virtue of HOPE.

Here we have a problem. It appears that you believe that a person who is baptized has absolutely no genuine expectation of heaven. Thus, you seem to believe that a person who is baptized (i.e. born again in your theology) can be lost forever in hell and that, in reality, baptism does not secure anything other than the forgiveness of some sins. In the case of a newborn baby that only means the forgiveness of Original Sin.

Actual Sin refers to Personal Acts of Sin. These include those minor kinds of sin which are called "Venial Sins".

We thus have two types of Actual Sin - Mortal and Venial. Unfortunately, there is no definitive list of either one in the Cathechism, although there seems to be a concensus that mortal sins are really nasty, like murder and masturbation, and venial sins are not so bad, like (white) lies and pilfering.

Original Sin is that sin into which we are born due to the sin of our first parents (Adam and Eve). Hence the word "Original".

Some might also term it to be Imputed or Inherited. This sin is imputed to an otherwise sinless individual as a result of the fact that he was conceived in sin. He himself, of course, did not commit the sin, but he is held guilty for it.

Yes. Heavy enough to kill the moral life of the soul. One who sins mortally spurns the life of grace from the soul and consequently is no longer in a state of sanctifying grace. He himself has, by his mortal sin, separated himself from Jesus Christ, Who IS the True Vine.

And the result of this separation is which?

a. Eternal death in hell
b. Punishment for a while in Purgatory followed by eternal life in heaven
c. Both of the above
d. None of the above

Sin has its own punishment (that is, by the very nature of the sin itself).

Whoever commits sin becomes a slave to sin.

How long does such slavery last? Logically, if one commits a sin, thereby becoming a slave to sin, he is a slave forever - unless someone frees him from his slavery. If Jesus Christ has freed one (John 8:34-36) he is free, indeed. There is no mention whatsoever of being free only until he commits another sin, thereby requiring Jesus Christ to free him again - and again - and again from slavery to sin.

What kind of reasoning is this? Where is the reasoning to begin with?

I think you were able to follow the logic easily enough. However, I will outline it for you as follow:

1. Baptism erases all prior sin in the sight of God.
2. No sins commited post-baptism are erased by baptism and require other means (sacraments, prayers, suffering, etc.) to be forgiven.
3. Therefore, the person who has the least amount of sin post-baptism is in the best spiritual state.
4. Therefore, it is best to expire as quickly following baptism as possible to avoid further Actual sin.
5. Therefore, if a baby is baptized and dies immediately after baptism its entry into heaven is guaranteed and thus is in a much better state than a baby who grows up into a sinner who either spends a goodly amount of time suffering for his sins in Purgatory and even might end up in hell.

Please show me the errors in the logic.

Did not our Blessed Lord warn people in this manner: "Go and sin no more so that nothing worse may befall you?"

He did.

There are very holy people who do persevere in Baptismal Innocence. And by the way, those who follow the path of penance may also enter into heaven immediately if they are completely purified and perfected in love at the moment of death. The Saints are a witness to this. Look at St. Augustine. It could be that he was one of them.

If this is true, then St. John was either in serious error or was lying when he wrote, "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (I John 1:8) Please note that he wrote, "we" which included himself, not "you" excluding himself.

Restoration and healing is possible with God.

One IS completely forgiven in the Sacrament of Penance (Confession) and the guilt is removed (and eternal punishment is remitted) ... Do you consider this a small thing?

It is only small in the sense that it, at best, is temporary and partial.

God is a Loving Father Who disciplines His children. God requires temporal punishment due to sin. Are you murmuring against the Justice of God?

Not at all. However, your understanding of temporal punishment in Purgatory is at variance with the Justice of God revealed in holy scripture.

The path of Penance can indeed bring a person, by the grace of God, to eternal life. One who is not in a state of grace (united to the True Vine), CANNOT do ANYTHING apart from Christ. That is to say, he cannot do anything which will merit any heavenly reward while separated from Jesus. He can bear no fruit that endures unto eternal life.

We have what appears to be an oxymoron. If an individual "cannot do anything which will merit any heavenly reward while separated from Jesus" that would, of course, include any form of penance or sacrament. IOW, he is irrevocably separated from Jesus Christ, without hope.

The God who created us without us ... WILL NOT SAVE US WITHOUT US. We have the freedom to receive or to reject the grace which comes from Jesus Christ. We must say YES to Grace by the gift of free will given to us by God.

Do you have any bibical references stating that God has given mankind "the gift of free will"?

Do not presume to say to yourselves "Abraham is our father, ... and that is enough!" ... You must bring forth the FRUITS of REPENTANCE!

Actually, I am not Jewish and do not claim Jewish descent. Therefore, I have never said to anyone, much less myself, that Abraham is my father. Are you Jewish?

Temporal Punishments due to sin is about making satisfaction to the Justice of God. It is not about seeking forgiveness to avoid hell and eternal condemnation. This is important to understand.

I agree that this is a very important distinction and am sorry that I created any misunderstanding on my part.

You seem to understand the essence of what I wrote here.

I have certaintly tried to do so.

Again, one cannot even make it into Purgatory without first being forgiven the guilt of eternal punishment. Otherwise, they would be condemned in Hell forever and ever.

Yes, I understand this vital aspect of this doctrine.

Wrong, ... it is not an either/or situation ... it is rather a both/and situation.

I have a few questions, then, as follow:

1. Are the merits of Jesus Christ truly infinite? IOW is there any limit to them and are they capable of covering all sin?

2. Are the merits of the Saints infinite or finite?

3. Where do the merits of Jesus Christ end and the merits of the Saints begin to be required for the forgiveness of sins?

4. If the merits of Jesus Christ are infinite, is there a particular reason only a finite number of them are used for forgiving sin, thus requiring the addition of human merits?

This is blasphemy by speaking unworthily of the Vicar of Christ and of the Church. Repent, and believe the Good News.

What is the Good News and exactly how is it that it is affiliated with the Pope? Is the Pope Jesus Christ (or God)?

 

[James4_14]

Originally Posted by AHJE

This is blasphemy by speaking unworthily of the Vicar of Christ and of the Church. Repent, and believe the Good News.
​

Would it be out of line to give a one-word response as in...PHOOEY!!?

***Col 2:10
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

To deny the all sufficient sacrifice Christ gave on the Cross IS blasphemy!

 

[AHJE]

Would it be out of line to give a one-word response as in...PHOOEY!!?

***Col 2:10
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

To deny the all sufficient sacrifice Christ gave on the Cross IS blasphemy!

What do you really know about Kephas and the Petrine office?

I do not deny the all sufficient sacrifice of Christ.
Now, ... how is that sacrifice of Christ applied in your life ... and how do you work out your own salvation in fear and trembling?

Lord Have Mercy. Kyrie Eleison. Christe Eleison. Kyrie Eleison. Amen.

 

[Albion]

This is blasphemy by speaking unworthily of the Vicar of Christ and of the Church. Repent, and believe the Good News.

Would it be out of line to give a one-word response as in...PHOOEY!!?

Just don't make a video out of it and put it online before phoning our embassies.

 

[James4_14]

What do you really know about Kephas and the Petrine office?

I do not deny the all sufficient sacrifice of Christ.
Now, ... how is that sacrifice of Christ applied in your life ... and how do you work out your own salvation in fear and trembling?

Lord Have Mercy. Kyrie Eleison. Christe Eleison. Kyrie Eleison. Amen.

The offices of which you spoke are not Biblical in the least.
The papacy is the shadow of Nimrod and the tower of Babel inthat this system turns from the Word of God to the words of the pope and their sacerdotal system.

***Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Salvation is not based on works. Period. The work of which is spoken in Philippians has reference to going on to perfection after salvation. Going from milk to meat in the Word. From babes to full grown adults. We are to follow the example of Christ in tribulation and when faced with death for our beliefs we are to choose death rather than to fall back to perdition.
Hebrews is the "prize book" for the Hebrews as Philippians is the "prize book" for our calling.

Here is the prize for which Paul worked:
***Phil 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
It is a special resurrection "out from the dead". It is a prior resurrection for which he ran the race.
In hot persuit of the prize:
***Phil 3:13-14
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

The essential teaching of Philippians summarized:

1. Pattern (1:27-4:2). The examples of Christ Himself (2:6-11) of Paul, Timothy and Epaphroditus (2:12-30, 3:1-14) are given.
2. Prize (3:14).
3. Perfecting (3:12).
4. Prior-Resurrection (3:11).
5. Pursuit (3:13).

Hebrew parallel:
***Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection…

If only the rcc would get down to the Truth then you may learn something.

 

[James4_14]

Just don't make a video out of it and put it online before phoning our embassies.

 

[Nostromo19]

AHJE,

Do you ever doubt any of this stuff relating to your explanation of purgatory? It seems very complicated.

Also, can a soul "give up" in purgatory? In other words, can a soul despair his torment and opt to chose eternal separation from God vice endure more suffering?

Thanks.

 

[AHJE]

Dear Nostromo19,

Peace be with you,

YOU WROTE:

AHJE,

Do you ever doubt any of this stuff relating to your explanation of purgatory? It seems very complicated.

Thanks for asking, ... I can appreciate your question. The Divinely Revealed Truth of Purgatory does indeed cover alot of doctrinal ground, ... salvation, justification, sin, penance, Sacraments, and the Communion of Saints, Indulgences and so on. But I do not feel that it is too complicated. There are things hard to understand in the Bible as St. Peter said in his 2nd Epistle of St. Peter 3:16 ... but it is not any less the Word of God on that account.

For me Purgatory is very common sense. Either you are perfectly purified at death or you're not. Those who do not admit that there is a Purgatory must consign all who are imperfectly purified into eternal HELL. This is totally unacceptable ... period. There are many, ... MANY people who are SAVED and who are in God's friendship through GRACE ... who nevertheless die imperfectly purified. This is a fact. Those who embrace by faith and reason the Dogma of Purgatory refuse to believe that these souls go to Hell. And they also do not accept that they enter IMMEDIATELY into the Kingdom of God. For as the book of the Apocalypse teaches us NOTHING IMPURE CAN ENTER INTO HEAVEN.

Also, can a soul "give up" in purgatory? In other words, can a soul despair his torment and opt to chose eternal separation from God vice endure more suffering?

At death the will of man is as frozen. When you die, you're will remains as at the moment of death. But it is possible for the souls in purgatory to pray for us on earth. (But this is like a man paralyzed in a hospital and who is only able to summon the nurse or doctor by pressing a button by the use of his finger.) But they cannot pray for themselves. We on earth are called by Christ to pray for them.

As for your question, ... the answer is no, a soul cannot "give up" in purgatory for the purification is being done to him, ... he is not gaining it on his own. The soul in purgatory has perfect hope, a perfect desire for heaven above all things. And the longing for God is so immense that it is difficult for us to understand. But the souls in purgatory know better than anyone that the soul needs God as the lungs need air. They know that they are not in Hell and they know that they will eventually and ultimately see God face to face in the Beatific Vision. They trust in Jesus.

Why would anyone choose HELL over Purgatory? Those in hell are without grace, while those in Purgatory are IN God's grace and friendship. It is not possible for the suffering souls to choose hell over Purgatory for the time to make that choice was available to them on earth and they chose to receive God's grace in Jesus Christ. They have made their choice already. And God knows it.

Thanks.

You're welcome.

Thanks be to God.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The Divinely Revealed Truth of Purgatory does indeed cover alot of doctrinal ground.

When and how was this "Truth" divinely revealed?

 

[AHJE]

When and how was this "Truth" divinely revealed?

It was Revealed by Jesus Christ who entrusted to the Apostles the Deposit of Faith and it was solemnly defined later on by the same Apostolic Church by the Teaching Authority given by Christ Himself.

He who hears the Catholic Church hears Christ.


Peace be with you.

 

[Albion]

It was Revealed by Jesus Christ who entrusted to the Apostles the Deposit of Faith and it was solemnly defined later on by the same Apostolic Church by the Teaching Authority given by Christ Himself.

He who hears the Catholic Church hears Christ.

You might as well have said that little green men from the planet Saturn gave it to the Kiwanis club. It's a lot of words but not an answer.

You were asked for the divinely-revealed evidence that there is such a place or state that meets the definition of "Purgatory."

 

[bbbbbbb]

It was Revealed by Jesus Christ who entrusted to the Apostles the Deposit of Faith and it was solemnly defined later on by the same Apostolic Church by the Teaching Authority given by Christ Himself.

He who hears the Catholic Church hears Christ.


Peace be with you.

I thought as much. It is hardly an unusual claim to make, but, unfortunately, one not necessarily backed by objective, verifiable proof.

 

[AHJE]

You might as well have said that little green men from the planet Saturn gave it to the Kiwanis club. It's a lot of words but not an answer.

You were asked for the divinely-revealed evidence that there is such a place or state that meets the definition of "Purgatory."

I can't help it, but your words remind me of this verse: "Why do you not know my speech? Because you cannot hear my word." (St. John 8:43, DRB)

"Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot bear to hear my word." (St. John 8:43, NAB)

Those who refuse to listen to the Words of Jesus via the Church (founded by Christ) show themselves (to the Church anyway) that they are led by the spirit of error and deceit. (see 1 St. John 4:6)

And by the way, neither are the words Trinity or Incarnation found explicitly in Sacred Writing either.

God bless you.

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

Mortal sin is pretty heavy stuff, such as masturbation, but venial sin is not so bad, like daydreaming about sex.

I was just going to note that both of these, if done with full knowledge and complete consent, are mortal sins according to Catholic theology. A better comparison might be stealing a car vs. stealing a candy bar.