A Catholic's UNDERSTANDING of Purgatory ... straight up ...

steve_bakr

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Apparently they believe whatever they think best. I long ago concluded that Catholics are much more "straight" when it comes to believing that their church is the "one, true church" than they are to anything else that that one, true church demands of them as members. There is hardly any characteristically Catholic doctrine that is not denied by Catholics whom I personally know as friends. As for the contradiction, they just put it out of their minds.

The Catholic author and (severe) critic of the Church's history, Gary Wills, author of "Papal Sins," received a deluge of letters after that book asking why he remains Catholic.

He responded with the book, "Why I am Still a Catholic." The last chapter was about the Nicene Creed, in which he pointed out that the ancient Creed remains constant, along with faith living in community. To which I am sure he would add the Holy Eucharist.

Believing whatever we thing best could be translated into believing in all sincerity according to the dictates of our conscience after a thorough examination. I would think--and hope--that that description could be applied to all Christians.

As Cardinal Ratzinger--the future Pope Benedict VI--has said, the sanctity of the conscience is directly answerable to God, and stands even above ecclesiastical authority.

He might have been thinking of St Thomas Aquinas, who said that we are obligated by God to live according to the dictates of our conscience, even if we are mistaken.

Of course, the role of conscience in the Catholic faith is one of the hotbutton topics in Catholic theology today, and deserves its own thread.
 
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steve_bakr

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It doesn't evolve unless the Church speaks. Not unless the Church decides to change its teachings. In the meanwhile, all the speculation and theorizing of popes and parishioners is just so much musing. And we know what the Catholics here think of those Christians who engage in any "individual judgment," don't we? ;)

I don't know about that, but it isn't "development of doctrine" just because individuals here or there have their own ideas about church doctrine.

When and if the Church itself changes the definition of Purgatory, that'll be a totally different matter.

I would disagree with the characterization that what popes and parishioners say is "so much musing."
 
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Albion

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The Catholic author and (severe) critic of the Church's history, Gary Wills, author of "Papal Sins," received a deluge of letters after that book asking why he remains Catholic.

He responded with the book, "Why I am Still a Catholic." The last chapter was about the Nicene Creed, in which he pointed out that the ancient Creed remains constant, along with faith living in community. To which I am sure he would add the Holy Eucharist.

I don't see how that reconciles the conflict, but maybe it reinforces what I said about people being more attached to the institution than to what it teaches.
 
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steve_bakr

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I don't see how that reconciles the conflict, but maybe it reinforces what I said about people being more attached to the institution than to what it teaches.

Although the Church as institution gets the most press coverage, etc., I think that the heart of Catholicism is experienced at the level of the Parish. It is Parish life that is at the core of Catholic community.

Also, it is the form of Catholic worship and the Holy Eucharist where we experience the heart of Catholicism.
 
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Albion

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Although the Church as institution gets the most press coverage, etc., I think that the heart of Catholicism is experienced at the level of the Parish. It is Parish life that is at the core of Catholic community.

Also, it is the form of Catholic worship and the Holy Eucharist where we experience the heart of Catholicism.

But you can say that of any Christian congregation. It doesn't go to the issues we've been discussing here. And I do not believe for a minute that the RCC doesn't care what doctrines its people sign onto and which ones it discards or that it doesn't really matter.
 
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steve_bakr

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But you can say that of any Christian congregation. It doesn't go to the issues we've been discussing here. And I do not believe for a minute that the RCC doesn't care what doctrines its people sign onto and which ones it discards or that it doesn't really matter.

I'm not suggesting anything like that about Catholic doctrine. Doctrine is important. But the heart of the Catholic experience is life in community at the Parish level and, of course, the Mass--ie., the Holy Eucharist.
 
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Apparently they believe whatever they think best. I long ago concluded that Catholics are much more "straight" when it comes to believing that their church is the "one, true church" than they are to anything else that that one, true church demands of them as members. There is hardly any characteristically Catholic doctrine that is not denied by Catholics whom I personally know as friends. As for the contradiction, they just put it out of their minds.

That has been my experience, as well.
 
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I'm not suggesting anything like that about Catholic doctrine. Doctrine is important. But the heart of the Catholic experience is life in community at the Parish level and, of course, the Mass--ie., the Holy Eucharist.

In Catholicism docility and submission to the Church is essential. I once knew of a young Catholic lad who was attending a Catholic college. He decided to take a class in the Pauline epistles. As the class developed he noticed significant differences between the text and what the priest was teaching. After class one day he met with the priest to discuss these differences. In response, the priest asked him if he thought he could interpret scripture on his own. To that he said that he thought so. Then the priest informed him that he could not be Catholic if he did not submit to the teaching of the Catholic Church. As a result, he ceased to be Catholic.
 
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steve_bakr

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In Catholicism docility and submission to the Church is essential. I once knew of a young Catholic lad who was attending a Catholic college. He decided to take a class in the Pauline epistles. As the class developed he noticed significant differences between the text and what the priest was teaching. After class one day he met with the priest to discuss these differences. In response, the priest asked him if he thought he could interpret scripture on his own. To that he said that he thought so. Then the priest informed him that he could not be Catholic if he did not submit to the teaching of the Catholic Church. As a result, he ceased to be Catholic.

I think that situation could have been handled better by the priest. It is only natural for young people to have questions. That is what learning is all about.
 
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Albion

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I'm not suggesting anything like that about Catholic doctrine. Doctrine is important. But the heart of the Catholic experience is life in community at the Parish level and, of course, the Mass--ie., the Holy Eucharist.

So, wouldn't that be the same if it were a Lutheran, Anglican, or Old Catholic parish?
 
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steve_bakr

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steve, since you appear to be the only active Catholic participant, would you mind replying to my sincere questions in this previous post? http://www.christianforums.com/t7688400-4/#post61719247

If I saw the right post, there were several questions there, but I will try to address the matter of Purgatory.

My understanding of Catholic teaching is that some sins after baptism carry temporal penalties. This has nothing to do with any lack on the part of Christ's sacrifice.

The best example I can think of is something like robbing a bank. You may well be forgiven by the bank officials because you voluntarily returned the money. But there is still the matter of paying the consequences--ie., time in prison--which may well have been reduced because you returned the money--ie., penance.

To that tricky question about the final judgement, my answer is that all souls will then be released from Purgatory.

As to the time spent in Purgatory, nobody really knows. Perhaps it was a day that felt like a thousand years. Or, perhaps it was a thousand years that only felt like a day.

I believe that the doctrine of Purgatory is emphasized much less than it once was.
 
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steve_bakr

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So, wouldn't that be the same if it were a Lutheran, Anglican, or Old Catholic parish?

It very well could be. I was once an Episcopalian, and the service was quite similar to the Catholic Mass. There was also a sense of community. The doctrines were a bit different, but we professed the Nicene Creed. So, what I said can apply to other Christians, too.
 
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It very well could be. I was once an Episcopalian, and the service was quite similar to the Catholic Mass. There was also a sense of community. The doctrines were a bit different, but we professed the Nicene Creed. So, what I said can apply to other Christians, too.

Out of curiosity, are you interested in discussing my posts with me about paragraphs 44 - 48 of Spe Salvi?
 
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steve_bakr

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Out of curiosity, are you interested in discussing my posts with me about paragraphs 44 - 48 of Spe Salvi?

OK, but you may need to restate your main points, as I use ForumRunner on my phone, and the navigation is not that great. Plus, the posts aren't numbered. :(

At any rate, I just reviewed those paragraphs of the Encyclical.
 
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AHJE

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Au contraire, my friend. It exists in Sacred Tradition in the Catholic Church, but the term "Mortal sin" is not found anywhere in the Bible (which I assume you meant by your term, "Sacred Writing".

Moreover, nowhere in any sacred writing are these alleged non-mortal sins defined in any detail whatsoever. Thus, humans have assigned themselves the task of determining what is and what is not "serious" sin.

Do you think God views some, but not all, sin as serious?
The Distinction between Mortal Sin and sins that are NOT mortal (Venial Sins) is made in the first epistle of St. John ch. 5.

The Holy Spirit has illuminated the Church on the more specific areas in relation to the 10 Commandments.

God bless you. :)
 
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AHJE

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The FRUITS OF REDEMPTION are really the Effects of Redemption. Simple.[/quotie]

All right then. Let's agree on that. The main fruit of Redemption, of the Cross is salvation, the forgiveness of our sins. Purgatory, in that case, is useless as well as unscriptural.
Eternal Punishment due to sins and Temporal Punishment due to sins.
Both are remitted in Holy Baptism but not necessarily when sins are forgiven by Christ through the Sacrament of Penance (Confession).
In the Sacrament of Penance, Jesus, through His Ministerial Priest, absolves the sinner and all eternal punishment is remitted but not necessarily the TEMPORAL PUNISHMENTS due to sin.

This is something that you may be overlooking.

If one's Temporal Punishments due to sin is not fully remitted before the death of a SAVED person ... there is no way that he will, nor can he, enter IMMEDIATELY into the Heavenly Kingdom. He MUST ... OF NECESSITY be purified or PURGED first. This is pure common sense.



No it doesn't. Christ didn't just die for the sins of those who had lived up to that point or for some of our sins. He died in order to effect a reconciliation between God and ourselves, period.
Yes, but Sacred Writing states that there is only ONE Baptism for the remission of sins and that there is only one sacrifice and that if one sins willingly there now left no other sacrifice but a fearful prospect of judgment. (see Heb. 6:4-6; 10:26-30)




Oh, I'm sure you can't be dissuaded from your beliefs, but I can show you where you are wrong. In fact, your denial of the sacrifice of the Cross right here does all the work for me.
You are not demonstrating how you think I have denied the sacrifice of Christ.

I have repeatedly stated that this Sacrifice needs to be applied. And that this application is in an ample manner in the ONE Holy Baptism and that subsequent forgiveness of Mortal sins demand satisfaction due to the TEMPORAL punishments due to sin WHICH HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN the guilt of Eternal Punishment.

Again, those who are in Purgatory are SAVED persons (with perfect HOPE of entering Heaven)!


God love you. :)
 
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AHJE

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...

Oh, I'm sure you can't be dissuaded from your beliefs, but I can show you where you are wrong. In fact, your denial of the sacrifice of the Cross right here does all the work for me. But I'll still comment on Rev. 21:27 since you brought it up. What it says is that no unclean thing shall enter into blessedness, but as you've been shown we are NOT any longer unclean, thanks to Christ. You simply want to stipulate that we are still unclean after being redeemed. You have nothing to support that theory.
Are you saying that it is impossible to get the garment of salvation SOILED after Baptism/Regeneration?

Are there then any people who actually are are unclean who are the subject of this verse? Of course. All those who have not accepted Christ as Lord and Savior have not availed themselves of the offer of forgiveness...and they will be denied heaven. That is what the verse speaks of--that the "liars" and those guilty of "abomination," i.e. the unrepentent and eternally lost, are denied heaven. There's nothing there about those who are already forgiven being denied heaven until they are scrubbed up some more, and Purgatory is explicitly NOT about those who are bound for hell, as you know.
The verse speaks about various sins, serious sins, which might exclude someone from the Kingdom of Heaven if these sins are not repented of. But even if they are repented of, does the person remain perfectly clean in the sense that no temporal punishment is left remaining to satisfy the Justice of God? Are his garments COMPLETELY without SOIL? Is His inner man perfected in Divine Charity so as to be ready to enjoy the eternal bliss of Heaven, the Beatific Vision of Almighty God, and the company of the Saints and Angels and the Blessed Virgin Mary -- Mother of God?

God bless you. :)
 
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The Distinction between Mortal Sin and sins that are NOT mortal (Venial Sins) is made in the first epistle of St. John ch. 5.

The Holy Spirit has illuminated the Church on the more specific areas in relation to the 10 Commandments.

God bless you. :)

Thanks. As you see, the discussion has moved along quite a bit since I posted that. Would you like to join Steve Bakr and myself in discussing paragraphs 44-48 of Spe Salvi?
 
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OK, but you may need to restate your main points, as I use ForumRunner on my phone, and the navigation is not that great. Plus, the posts aren't numbered. :(

At any rate, I just reviewed those paragraphs of the Encyclical.

I understand the problem. I have copied my first post for you here and hope that you can get all of it on your phone. If not, I will delete the text of the paragraph.

There are some pertinent sections from Spe Salvi. Because they are lengthy, I am dividing my post into sections with each addressing a particular paragraph in numerical order from 44 through 48. I have highlighted particular portions in blue.

44. To protest against God in the name of justice is not helpful. A world without God is a world without hope (cf. Eph 2:12). Only God can create justice. And faith gives us the certainty that he does so. The image of the Last Judgement is not primarily an image of terror, but an image of hope; for us it may even be the decisive image of hope. Is it not also a frightening image? I would say: it is an image that evokes responsibility, an image, therefore, of that fear of which Saint Hilary spoke when he said that all our fear has its place in love. God is justice and creates justice. This is our consolation and our hope. And in his justice there is also grace. This we know by turning our gaze to the crucified and risen Christ. Both these things—justice and grace—must be seen in their correct inner relationship. Grace does not cancel out justice. It does not make wrong into right. It is not a sponge which wipes everything away, so that whatever someone has done on earth ends up being of equal value. Dostoevsky, for example, was right to protest against this kind of Heaven and this kind of grace in his novel The Brothers Karamazov. Evildoers, in the end, do not sit at table at the eternal banquet beside their victims without distinction, as though nothing had happened. Here I would like to quote a passage from Plato which expresses a premonition of just judgement that in many respects remains true and salutary for Christians too. Albeit using mythological images, he expresses the truth with an unambiguous clarity, saying that in the end souls will stand naked before the judge. It no longer matters what they once were in history, but only what they are in truth: “Often, when it is the king or some other monarch or potentate that he (the judge) has to deal with, he finds that there is no soundness in the soul whatever; he finds it scourged and scarred by the various acts of perjury and wrong-doing ...; it is twisted and warped by lies and vanity, and nothing is straight because truth has had no part in its development. Power, luxury, pride, and debauchery have left it so full of disproportion and ugliness that when he has inspected it (he) sends it straight to prison, where on its arrival it will undergo the appropriate punishment ... Sometimes, though, the eye of the judge lights on a different soul which has lived in purity and truth ... then he is struck with admiration and sends him to the isles of the blessed”. In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (cf. Lk 16:19-31), Jesus admonishes us through the image of a soul destroyed by arrogance and opulence, who has created an impassable chasm between himself and the poor man; the chasm of being trapped within material pleasures; the chasm of forgetting the other, of incapacity to love, which then becomes a burning and unquenchable thirst. We must note that in this parable Jesus is not referring to the final destiny after the Last Judgement, but is taking up a notion found, inter alia, in early Judaism, namely that of an intermediate state between death and resurrection, a state in which the final sentence is yet to be pronounced.

Please note that the narrative about Lazarus and the rich man is described as being a parable - a distinction which neither Jesus nor the gospel writers make. The narrative is not presented in typical parabolic form and I submit that it was not a parable.

Note also, that the narrative is given a historicist spin by alleging that Jesus actually meant that this was describing an intermediate existence and not a permanent state - even though the narrative itself does not do so in any such form. One must read this into the narrative in order to reach this conclusion.

In actual fact, the narrative states explicitly that the rich man was in a torment of fire from which he could never escape nor from which he could ever hope for any relief - not even a drop of water from Lazarus.
 
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